This is about the third straight day Ive heard good things about Wallace. I like it.

 

The scrubs are looking good.

 

I can't wait to watch this battle for myself in preseason. Since Ginn's gone, Pat White has taken the role of exciting project guy, I really hope he is successful enough to remind people that a rookie quarterback shouldn't be written off based on 5 pass attempts and some poor practices performances. He seems to have been playing well for about a week now, hope that can help build some confidence heading into the Tampa game.

 

Good intel & thread, thanks for sharing it. Would love to see Carroll become the KR/PR to open up a spot for another good player we want to develop.

 

I never believed that White couldn't make that throw. The fact is that he did it college and then he did it at the combine. At the combine it was easy to compare his throws to the other prospects and IMO and the opinion of many QB experts there he looked the best. Now, why so many of his passes in practice and his few attempts in games since have looked like dog crap is anybody's guess, but it's clear the passing ability is in there.

Dmart moving up so quickly tells me more about how bad our other TEs are than how good he is.

And you're right, Cam being taken off STs is a strong indicator that he's just about sewn up the starting spot.

Has anybody heard how Carroll has looked on returns? The only thing I've seen is that one blurb in today's notes that says he returned the missed FG to the 50.

 

Maybe, but my guess was that he just wasn't that great of an athlete compared to NFL players. I thought he had an advantage in college that he no longer has. I think he was facing that adjustment at the same time as he was facing the typical adjustment that every spread QB has to go through.

IMO our TE talent was poor outside of Fasano. I thought/think that the chances of any of those guys breaking out was/is 1/1000.

Agreed, it's definitely a good sign for him.

 

I think that messing with Pat White's glove was a mistake, as I do Cameron messing with John Beck's motion. I'm not at all a fan of altering a QB's throwing motion- so much can be tied into it, including confidence. Imo you just don't mess with it. Tebow might prove to be the exeption, we'll see. Your'e right Rafael, PW was throwing the ball pretty darned well at the Senior Bowl- I doubt that he forgot to throw a football well over the last two years. The only other thing that I can think of is hand size (a la Alex Smith) and the size difference between the college and pro balls. I don't know what PW's hand size is or if that could be a factor.

 

I wouldn't feel safe having Carrol as punt returner. That is a different beast all together. I would rather have someone who has been a punt returner in the past.

 

Good to hear that about Cameron Wake; it does sound like he's got a decent hold on the starting spot. I also think it's somewhat telling that Nolan Carroll is back deep on a field goal attempt - just one more opportunity to showcase his return skills. At this point I almost hope he takes the KR job just so it frees up one more roster spot.

 

the perfect spiral for thirty yards by ronnie is something that I have been seeing evolve in his mechanics since last year..I know its sounds strange, and ive said it before, but he's getting better..

If this Talent can throw some quick passes with some accuracy and most importantly some resemblance of consistency, he, and the formation will be lethal..

 

White isn't slow, but he's never been "fast"..... he was elusive, in college. In the pro's he's an average, smallish athlete. And altho he is a gamer.... that may not be enough

If we start the season with him as our number 2...... he will arguably be the worst back up in the NFL. Him beating out Thigpen is NOT a good thing

 

And this is the direction we should be heading.... no need for a Pat White or that Wild Pat stuff. Ronnie makes that formation go in a way that White never will...... Pat White will never be the dual threat he needs to be to supplant Ronnie Brown. Ever....

Otherwise....shelve that stuff and go fully with the base

 

Quickness and speed are not the same thing.

 

I think Pat White went through the same thing as John Beck in a sense his rookie year. Namely, being a small player, he wasnt quite ready for the size and speed of the NFL. I think it caused him to panic when he threw. He was overloaded with adrenaline. He seemed to run ok. Jets, Patriots, etc..The key to me will be watching his demeanor. If the game is slowing down for him he should be able to relax when he throws and if he can relax, he can be an alright passer. He will never be a starting caliber QB but he wasnt drafted to be that. Anyone who watched him in college knows he isnt as bad a passer as he showed last year and thats really the key to him developing into our version of Kordell Stewart

 

Edit: Him beating out Thigpen is NOT possible. Here's Jim Mora talking about White's performance vs the Steelers:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tie0tz7jGDI"]YouTube- ‪Jim Mora Saints rant (better quality)‬‎[/ame]

 

And this is my problem with him...... and why it makes more sense to make him a WR/ multi purpose player. He's always going to have trouble getting beyond the LOS as a runner. You need either speed or power.....he lacks both

 

The bold and enlarged is the key though.

I don't mean to bring this conversation back up but I still don't think you can draft a backup quarterback and/or a slash player in the second round. If he's an explosive player, ala this years Dexter McCluster, then its understood but Pat White is not that. I posed this question on Twitter the other day and I ask the same here; some of us wanted Julian Edelman in that same draft but with a later pick. Would you still have drafted White in the second if you could get Edelman in the later rounds? Not in hindsight, just pretend you're sitting in the War Room and making the decision to draft or pass up on White. Do you pull the trigger? Personally, I don't. Why? Because I don't draft players that are going to be backups in the second round.

 

although I agree with you about being drafted in the 2nd rd as a WTF moment, Ive learned long ago that GMs simply dont care where the public is on these things. You have seven draft picks and at the end of the day they all are equal. You could draft busts with your first two picks and if you draft five starters with your last five you still had a good draft. Rather than viewing Pat White as a 2nd rounder, view him as a 4th rounder which is where he should have been drafted. View Hartline as our 2nd rounder. If the draft had shaped up that way noone wouldve been complaining about Pat White. You dont hear anyone complaining about Lionel Dotson? People get too hung up on draft rounds.

 

It's not really about the public's opinion here, IMO. The question I think that has to be asked is where does this player fit and how will he help me in the future? That question has to be asked by the man calling the shots, which is Jeff Ireland in our case. Put yourself in Ireland's shoes and ask yourself those two questions. I do the same and I don't get an answer that justifies me selecting Pat White in the second round. However, you may. If you get a different answer, I'd be interested in reading about it.

No, I don't think they are equal. You are investing more money into the higher picks, you are assuming that those higher picks will be the core or the step to building a foundation for your football team. If you blow early picks, I guarantee you that you will not achieve success at its peak. If you blow late picks, I think your chances of achieving success at its peak are not as low as blowing an early pick. If you hit on early picks, you're doing your job right. If you hit on late picks, that's icing on the cake. If you miss on early picks, you're not doing your job right. If you miss on late picks, you're still not doing your job right but the odds are against you, anyhow.

I actually do have an issue with Lionel Dotson. I don't think he's very good.

And you bet your *** I would be still complaining about Pat White if there was another player available that could have helped this team more. I think gadget players are for later picks. We already had Chad Pennington on the roster as a backup. Why not select someone late as a future backup and groom him.

Just my two cents.

 

And by GMs, he actually means Al Davis. :pointlol:

 

And with their first round pick the Raiders select kicker Sebastian Janikowski of Florida State. FTW!

 

I dont think you'll find anyone who wanted to draft Pat White in the 2nd round other than the supposed rumors that Belichik wanted too. It is what it is. They got juiced on the idea of supercharging the wildcat with a Kordell Stewart type of player. What do they run the wildcat percentage wise? 15% 10%? If he works out maybe they increase that to 20%. The key is if he works out as a new weapon. If he doesnt obviosuly it isnt worth it. If he does who cares if he was a second rounder. I wanted Everette Brown but he was picked one pick before us. Maybe they did too and just defaulted to pat white. I dont think they liked Clint Sintim or Conner Barwin otherwise they wouldve probably been dolphins

you can blow a first rounder every five years. It wont kill you as long as the other four years you hit. Look at Vernon Gholston. The guy has done nothing two years in a row. It hasnt killed them. Why because they hit on Revis, Ferguson, Mangold and maybe Sanchez. A good draft is two starters, a very good draft is three and a great draft is four. In any given year it doesnt matter what round they are drafted in.

 

neither pat white nor turner has shown anything to date. well white showed he could run a bit last year. white has the preseason to prove he can be two threat option in the wildcat they envisioned when they drafted him. might as well give it to him and not trash him for the next four weeks. Let it play out and then we can decide whether to cut him or develop him further. Thigpen seems to still be an interception machine and Pennington seems to have a dead arm so its not like we should be abandoning players just to placate their critics. We probably have the same view in that have no expectations and see how it plays out. The reports make it seem he's improving day to day so lets see what he brings to the table this year. A couple of TD passes out of the wildcat in the preseason and he might rise like the phoenix

 

I disagree.... the first couple rounds should be considered premium picks and unless you have a loaded roster coming off a SB appearance, you don't roll the dice with them or use them to draft situational or specialty players. You don't spend on luxuries when you have gaping holes to fill.

Drafting irresponsibly like that is what found us at the bottom of the heap.... and even if this FO does it only on occasion, it could very well be what keeps us from ever being a serious contender.

It's nice to be hitting on your later picks but in most cases you don't find stars there or core players..... those are generally found in the earlier rounds. And hitting on them is a must if you're going to be a contender.

You can't view Pat White as a 4th rounder no more than you can view Ted Ginn as a 4th rounder.... You have to get value from your premium picks, you just have to..... because there are consequences.

 

what are these consequences you speak of. We are getting better every year under Ireland. Did drafting Pat White ruin this team for the next five years? No. He made up for it. The best draft in the world is only going to net you four starters. We got three last year. Who would you have drafted in his place.

 

Ok but........ you also have to ask yourself what if they had hit on him or what if they had chosen a player that did pan out?

How much better off would they be? How much closer would they be to being a contender?

You can't just dismiss it....

 

What if they chose a player who was a drug addict? What if they chose a player who was so bad that he got cut in the first week of practice?

 

five starters two years ago, four starters last year. they've earned the right to be weird

 

The consequences are that when you miss with premium picks you leave yourself with holes to fill..... you find yourself drafting and spending double on positions and that leaves you short of being able to fill other holes.

Drafting Pat White on it's own may not kill you........ but if you burn more second rounders than you hit on... THAT will kill your chances. And hoping to make up for it on later picks is a faulty strategy.

Bottom line is that it was irresponsible use of a 2nd round pick..... it was a draft day taboo, just like spending a top ten pick on a KR/WR project. You just don't do it, period.

Who would I have picked?

Once Everett was gone. I didn't like being in that slot......standing pat I would have probably taken Barwin or Smith.

What I wanted to do tho, is move up, back into the first round.....or further up in the second.

Aside from what I wanted.......it's not like there weren't choices.... move up, down or hell even do like the Pats and trade it for a better pick next year.......or even better, use it on Miles Austin and that 2nd round tender. It's not like they weren't familiar with him.

I agree with you tho........ I expected Everett to be there and I can't remember but I believe the Panthers jumped us to take him. I also believe that when he was gone, they said the hell with it and gambled on White.

 

Regardless...... they wasted a top ten pick. You can't sit there and tell me that had they hit on that pick, it wouldn't have added to their team, made them stronger.

 

Well does that describe EVERY player available not named Vernon Gholston?

You can make up all the "what if's" you want..... there are always consequences to whiffing on premium picks. Especially top ten picks...

Let's say the lights come on for Gholston this year and he makes the Pro Bowl..... you gonna tell me that won't make a difference on that team?