Starting to wonder about this Hartline deal. I thought it was done, now it's still being negotiated.

Don't think it's good if your 2008 #1 overall is not worth signing at market value.

 

I keep saying this but no one seems to respond, I'll ask again, what Gm gets a gig, and doesn't get to hire his coach?, that's just the coach, what about actually picking and giving out multi million dollar contracts when that piece of crap was getting paid millions to put this team back on the map..really I think it was quite unprecedented territory, and that ain't a good thing in this case..it's why I have some patience for the dude, and try to give him some support because I feel damn confident that he came into a very unique bad situation as it related to what a real GM with the power usually gets.

 

injuries are injuries. he wasn't injury prone when we drafted him, but he's prone now. that means everything when it comes to the 2nd contract.

 

Thanks for posting that Paul, good to hear what's been said/thought about us and where we're at. It's easy to look back at the Long pick in hindsight and say we should have picked Ryan, but no-one can predict what's going to happen with a player's career injury-wise.

Sounds like "Jeff" was phoning in to hear people praise him so he could feel better about himself. ;)

 

Nobody forced Ireland to take the job under whatever parameters were set out. He decided it was the best career move for him, so he lvies with the consequences.

Second, I think you assume, wrongly, that Ireland wouldn't have hired Sparano. He almost certainly would have. They were good friends and Ireland has mentioned repeatedly that he thought he was a good coach and that when he went on this last coach search he was looking for the same qualities that drew him to Sparano.

Third, I presume Ireland was working and doing something during the years Parcells was here. Parcells was not a full time employee, wasn't in the office every day. Somebody put together the draft boards. Somebody evaluated and graded the potential free agents. Who do you think that was? It almost certainly wasn't Parcells.

Now maybe Ireland would have made different chocies than Parcells. I don't know and it's certainly easy to say that now, after the fact when Ireland is both trying to save his job and people are looking to defend him for whatever reason, but the fact is we'll never know. He can tell you 1,000 times that he wanted to trade for Flacco in 2008 but Parcells vetoed it and nobody would ever know if it was true.

So, to me, Ireland knew the score when he came here. They were either all going to be successful together or all fail together. Ireland managed to worm his way out of that pact. Credit to him for self preservation, but to then leap to "he's done a good job" and "he's hired a great coach" are stretches when we don't have definitive answers to either of those questions

 

This Jeff Ireland debate features enough recycling to make Al Gore hush up.

 

Why would DJ be wrong about that? Now you're assuming that "He almost certainly would have."

 

Based on everything Ireland has said and done since Tony's firing, and the fact that they had a long standing friendship dating back to Dallas, makes it highly likely that Sparano would have been Ireland's choice or at least one of his top options. I suppose it's always possible that somebody else could have blow him away but again we'll never know.

And I don't know why he gets a ton of credit for Philbin either. Reports were that he favored McCoy and that Philbin was ultimately Ross's call.

 

There is nothing really to support that. There is no evidence to say he would have or would not have. The 'I suppose' only serves a purpose as it refers to a position that you personally do not believe. There is no evidence to suggest that either option has more validity to it.

Being friends with someone has little to do with hiring them - if you're smart.

 

What's naive is that you think that means Ireland wanted Sparano as HC. That's a leap in hatred, even for you.

Maybe they are friends. Maybe Ireland did want to bring him over. Maybe it wasn't for HC though. You have to see how irrational you're being/have been about this whole thing, when you just assume Ireland wanted Sparano to be HC because.....well friends hire friends.

 

He's been in the league for 5 years. Pedigree has nothing to do with it.

I can guarantee you that the Dolphin's perception of what Long's value is is closer to the market value than what Long perceives it to be.

That said, there's nothing wrong with signing a now-average (with potential) tackle at an average price.

 

Long is wanting over market value for a good but not great starting LT. Somewhere between what Will Beatty signed for, (5 yrs/38.75 mil) and what Duane Brown signed for (7 yrs/$56.2 mil) is market value IMO for Long. Long was offered a contract, and IMO it was in that range, which is market value.

 

I believe Ireland was in the cowboy organization before Sparano..If Bill Parcells says he wants to promote you from payer personnel to make you the GM of the Miami dolphins, you take the job..my point is, the hiring of the coach was not his decision, if Parcells wasn't involved in the promotion of Ireland to the cowboys, and he got it on his own, I certainly can't say he would of selected Sparano, I mean Sparano didn't even get to hire his offensive coordinator, the whole system was completely flawed, you have to believe in your GM and his vision..I can't say that while Parcells was here, we were seeing Jeff Ireland's vision considering what we do know, and what some common sense tells us..common sense..first time GM is not making multi million dollar decisions for a 1 and 15 team with Parcells being paid millions to rebuild the whole franchise..

You can say because he took the job he should be responsible for how the system was flawed and take on all the consequences, but that's not common sense to me in this situation, that's just ignoring obvious factors...

So lets think about this, Parcells leaves, 2 years later, Ireland and Ross try to get the best coach ever, Fires Sparano mid season,we now have a new coach, were the 2nd youngest team in the league, 3rd most in cap space, and 5 of the first 82 picks in the draft..

I have my suspicions about Ireland's ability to evaluate, but it's hard to grasp after two years, I can't put the blame on the dude for all 5 considering Parcells involvement and how HE structured the foundation from the get and what the Gm was forced to deal with, I do believe there is pressure this year on Ireland to get it done, 3 rd year is the year the team needs to make the jump..no excuses now..

 

All of that is just common sense and logic due to being unfettered by whiny frustration spanning all the way back to Marino not winning a SB.

I wish more fans, especially here, could stop acting like petulant children when it comes to Ireland, and give him this season, before they make up their minds.

 

I believe that Parcell's had total say initially with the Dolphins. Ireland was just a figurehead that Parcells brought to assume the roll because he already knew he was leaving before his contract was up and that Ireland was in position to take over as GM. I also believe that Sparano was Parcells choice because he was waiting on him when the Cowboys exited the playoffs. Parcells was also the one who made the call to Smiley the minute that years free agency started as reported by the sports media. Parcells was too much of a control freak to let Ireland come in and take total control while he was the boss. Now, whenever Ireland took over full responsibility is a matter of conjecture. No, I don't think Ireland has done a great job, but I also remember there was a lot of people on this site who wanted Piolli as GM and look how that worked out for Kansas City. This is Ireland's defining year as he has manipulated the salary cap and the draft picks and has the free agents available to make his mark, so we shall see.

 

That's it, just one more season, with support and excitement, 3 years after is the right time to be critical of true GM duties..

Blaming Ireland for what Parcells did to this organization just isn't the right thing to do from our perspective, we don't have enough inside info to have such critical conviction, we do know That Parcells was hired to do a job though, and looking at what he did and how he departed, his executive goals were that of a Person who didn't give a sh&$ about this franchise.

 

Yup..

 

How do you know no one ever had interest in Turner? Thats a grand statement based on nothing much at all, unless of course you know everyone in the NFL, if so fine. But if not thats supposition. Just because he wasn't hired before means all of nothing. Maybe he turned them down, which does in fact happen.

 

It would seem to me that the highlighted statement underlines the uncertainty of both sides in the Great Fireland Debate! No One Knows! What actually happened was behind closed doors, and not one person has come forth and said "Now this here is the real skinny!" about any decision in question betwixt Ireland and Parcells. Everything we have written, thought, spoken or otherwise allowed to be known by any means is sheerest guesswork, speculation, and scientific wild-@$$ guess - and certainly NOT WORTH THE UMBRAGE SHOWN on either side anywhere on this, or any, boardcon, phonecon, barcon, bragcon, crycon, or wishcon!!

 

This is what I remember too, but revisionist history is a specialty around here.

 

How is anything I said "hatred"?

I don't know why you're ultra sensitive to the Ireland topic. I didn't even really criticize Ireland. All I said is that I don't give him a free pass for everything that went on here during the Parcells era. I don't give Brian Gaine or the scouts a free pass either, but Ireland was at worst #2 in the organizational depth chart and was Parcells' hand picked successor so it's safe to assume they shared many of the same beliefs/priorities.

 

It can't be revisionist history if it isn't actually history. The entire "Philbin was Ross' call" is the epitome of uninformed and reckless speculation.

 

The sum total of your stance about Ireland for awhile now, is hatred.

I'm sensitive to it, because it is tiring. But its not just you.

Who knows what they shared? You think we say that to give him a pass, we don't. We say that because, get this, we don't honestly know. Instead of passing judgement on someone on a bunch of things we don't know, we'd rather judge him on what we do know. That is rational. Your stance is opposite of yours so it must be irrational. Irrational stances are generally born form extreme emotions, like fear, sorrow or....hate.

At the end of this coming season, I may be ready to call for his head, but not because I'm judging him on incomplete information or not because I'm taking my decades long frustration out on him. You can't honestly say that.

 

Nobody here made it up. It's what was reported in the press. And Mike McCoy certainly believed he was getting this job. He said that publically.

Sure, there's a possibility the story is wrong, but it's what was reported. We have nothing else to go by.

And I don;t know why we're rushing to credit anybody for Philbin yet. He did all right. He didn't embaress himself which was an accomplishment in and of itself given some of our previous coaches but I also didn't see him do anything so spectacular that I'm certain we have a great coach here.

 

Whats being reported was incomplete and couldn't lead anyone to conclude anything logically. How exactly do you believe Joe Philbin became involved in the process????

 

I certainly wouldn't say Schmoo has hatred. I may not agree with what he has said in terms of the words he used.

 

Reckless speculation is one thing this fanbase does better than any other, and that's about it...it all has partly to do with a deterioting culture...not directed at Schmoot..

 

Why does it have to be Parcells or Ireland? Why can't it be Parcells and Ireland?

Who do you think fed Parcells the scouting report? Do you guys think Parcells had his boots on the ground and was scouting players nationwide? Yes Parcells pulled the trigger but Ireland gave him the gun, the bullet and the targets.

Who is that got on an airplane and went to see Henne, Ryan and Flacco? Here is a clue. It wasn't Parcells.

Parcells had final say. But he was given the choices.

 

final say is everything JD, coaching and developing those final says is pretty important as well..

 

Whose to say those choices found weren't based on Parcells blueprint?

All this talk about Matt Ryan vs. Jake Long, and people forget Ryan was viewed as 1a and Henne was 1b by Ireland.

Ewww major Ireland faux pas!!!!!! Except, what if they were viewed that way because Ireland had to evaluate QBs based on Parcells checklist? According to the Parcells QB checklist, Henne should have been the next Phil Simms. Which is EXACTLY the right kind of QB needed for Parcells system.

I believe Ireland got to make most of the calls on which players were brought in and which weren't. I also believe he had to use Parcells ideals of good players as his guide not his own.

 

What Polian says pretty much mirrors what about half this board has been saying about Ireland (except more positive). IMO it is a logical assessment from an unbiased source who also has inside knowledge about how the process works.

 

And who is giving him the choices and in what manner? Under what direction are they making their evaluation? I find it really hard for anyone to be able to decipher an administrative process thats so opaque.

 

Doesn't matter if we're talking about back then. Doesn't matter what blueprint Ireland was given, if the players chosen drop out of that blueprint after one year.

My post was to address the discussion of who was at fault during those years, not what is going on this year. WE look at Pat Turner and then people say, oh Ireland is GM, he is at fault. Others will say, oh Parcells had final say, he was at fault.

Why isn't it, they were both at fault. Ireland did the scouting, gave Parcells the report. Parcells doesn't choose a player his staff rips to shred. He's choosing among those players his team has told him he should be choosing from.

 

Huh? That's exactly why I apportion blame to everyone. Everyone deserves blame for Pat White. Everyone deserves blame for Patrick Turner.

 

Because you have no idea what Ireland's or Parcells' role is in that process. You're just basically guessing that Ireland scouted him.