On second thought, if you didn't notice that it was a snide remark in the first place, please disregard my last post.
I could compile stats and paragraphs of breakdowns that could convince people Ryan Tannehill has been a better QB than Drew Brees in 2013. But I won't waste my time because sometimes figures lie and liars figure.
The only thing I can say about Gibson that I prefer over Bess, at this point, is that he offers more. He can play on the outside a little more effectively should someone go down. I think he can make a big play in the air over the middle, etc. I'm not forgetting that Bess couldn't do that either, because he did. I just think Gibson's length offers a little more. However, I have a hard time believing that Gibson is more reliable than Bess. Either way, both are solid players. Plus, Tannehill seems like he's looking for him and Hartline on big 3rd down plays.
My opinion is similar to yours. I don't think from a production standpoint he's as good in the slot. I don't think he's as good after the catch, I don't think he's quite as dependable as Bess, as you suggest, etc. And that stands out all the more to me because Bess didn't have the luxury of a Mike Wallace working the outside in 2012. Nor was Ryan Tannehill as good in 2012 as he is in 2013. And from 2009 to 2011, Bess' QB was worse even than that rookie Tannehill from 2012. However, Brandon Gibson threatens the safety from the slot more than Bess did, simply by virtue of his size. I think he therefore fits a little better within the scheme. The problem with that is, so would a lot of other guys. Gibson is a better scheme fit, but also a less unique player given the scheme's demands. Quite frankly after this year it wouldn't surprise me if cutting Brandon Gibson's salary out of the books in favor of the cheaper Rishard Matthews is something that is contemplated.
He did it some last year. I remember one drop he had on the back shoulder, would have been a big gain. But he was a rookie, one that was kept Inactive for most of the season. Even so he ran 21 routes from the slot, was thrown to 3 times with 2 catches for 37 yards. This year he's run 9 routes from the slot, been thrown to twice with 2 catches for 26 yards. Altogether that's 2.10 yards per route (versus Gibson's 1.59 purely from the slot). It's also 12.6 yards per attempt which is superb. Brian Hartline has run 11 routes from the slot this year and did 28 last year. Altogether he's 6 for 8 for 119 yards. That's 3.05 yards per route, 14.9 yards per attempt. Now that we have a clearer picture schematically of what Joe Philbin has in mind for his slot receivers, even with Hartline being a woeful RAC player, might be a good idea to play him in the slot after all. Which means if the Dolphins wanted to upgrade the position they could still look for an outside guy if they wanted.
Personally, the stat I look at for WRs is EPA per play. In 2012, Davone Bess' EPA/P was 0.12, which was something like 60th in the NFL. In 2013, Brandon Gibson's EPA/P is 0.46, which is 10th in the NFL.
As Jim Ross would say, "Hartline is quick as a hickup." If he was better at RAC, he would be an ideal slot player in this system. It is weird, without the ball he is like a ballerina, with the ball in his hand it is like he has an inner ear infection.
Hah. Well stated. I agree with you though. I think when I wrote a big defense of him prior to the 2012 season using 2011 video I said that the only two things keeping him from being a complete, elite receiver in this league are his consistent tripsies (and yes Stringer it does have a lot to do with leg strength) after the catch, and his inability to physically fight for footballs in the air with heavy traffic around the ball. For all intents and purpose, he could still be "elite" without the latter.
That doesn't explain the times he seems to trip over his own feet once he gets the ball in his hand after running a route with three really quick cuts.
Seems like he usually gets tripped up by a defender. Problem IMO is that it doesn't take much for a defender to trip him.
Since there have been multiple threads for the last several years specifically about firing Ireland and very few that praise the good decisions, I can't understand why you'd be surprised.
I'm fine with Gibson and was fine with him when we signed him. That said, I think this praise for his YAC skills is off-base, especially in comparison to Bess. Over his career Bess has been a better YAC guy than Gibson. And I don't see anything in Gibson to suggest he has the potential to be a great YAC guy. I have been irritated by Gibson's drops, although Bess had stretches when he had the dropsies too and it looks like Bess has dropped several passes this year too..
It doesn't tell us anything. There were only 2 receivers last year, where as there are 4 contributing this year. Do the math; there's now more for Tannehill to distribute to, so Bess should have a higher yards per snap last year.
No. Those 2 extra first downs are the difference between a punt and an extended drive, which can be and has been the difference between points & no points and wins instead of losses. Atlanta Gibson converts 3rd & 9 on Atlanta's 30 yard line that results in a TD two plays later rather than having to settle for a FG. <game winning drive> Gibson converts back to back 3rd Downs. 4 plays later we win it. Indy converted a crucial 4th Quarter 3rd & 8 vs the Colts that allowed us to extend the drive and run the clock down so that Indy gets the ball back with less than 4 minutes to play and trailing by 4. Cleveland converts the first 3rd Down of our second drive that results in a FG. <trailing 7-6 midway through the 3rd Quarter> converts 3rd & 9 at midfield. 2 plays later we score a TD to gain the lead. <opening drive of the 4th Qtr, close game, leading 13-10> Gibson for 24 yards on the drive's first play..... then converts back to back 3rd Downs.... then draws a PI two plays later to set up 1st & Goal from the 1 and a Daniel Thomas TD.
You're ignoring the part about the more efficient quarterback play having as much to do with those extra two first downs as the receiver's skill. If not more.
I'm laughing because I was going to post their height, weight, age... but forgot. Always nice to know you are there for me S24/7 I'd also like to add that Gibson runs faster than Bess in the 40.
can't help but recall the thread when he was being signed.. showing him tripping/falling down in gif images on the way to cash his check
So your theory is that there are more threads here praising Ireland than there are threads that criticize him?
I'm not sure anyone really believes that. Fact is he has deserved a good part of that criticism up until last year, so naturally you were going to see threads that reflected such. He has done a fantastic job these past 2 offseasons though, with Brandon Gibson who IS obviously an upgrade over Bess being one of the better moves of the offseason.
I asked the question b/c when I said that there were more threads bashing than praising Ireland it was called a blatant lie. It certainly sounds like at least some believe that there were not more threads bashing Ireland.
May not be apples to apples on Matthews' slot numbers if they tend to be in pass-heavy, 4 WR personnel and situations like 4th qtr comebacks, versus Gibson in a 3 WR set in the second quarter of a game we lead or are close in. Not saying it's 'inadmissable' but it does alter things somewhat if Matthews is operating spread wide facing a #4CB while Gibson is facing a #3, and if MAtthews is getting rotated in when we are compelled to throw and throw to move the ball quickly down the field, versus a run-pass balanced situation where a punt is still an acceptable outcome. For the record I love Rishard Matthews. Probably the best #4WR in the league.
That's probably part of it. He also brings his feet closer together when he catches. Narrower base, worse balance. Then there is contact and over he goes, like a top.
Pretty easy to say that he was understrength last year after sitting out the entire training camp. Hopefully better this year, but not a lot different after 3 games. Let it be known that I am a total Buckeye homer too when it comes to Bline.
I think the real argument, Bess vs. Gibson, is that Gibson is far more suited to play the slot in this offense. That isnt even really debatable. Now arguing which you like better overall is a different story. We're comparing two different types of Wrs here. Ck recently broke down how Miami uses them differently in the slot than most teams. To execute those routes....they need a prototypical Wr, as apposed to the virtual/converted HB like Welker/Bess. I too am a big Rishard Matthews fan. Of all the Wr's we toyed with last year, at least we found 1 keeper. ( 2=Binns ) Did you guys see Derek Moye get in the endzone for PIT a few weeks ago ?
I know during the Atlanta game they were saying that Gibson never really played the slot receiver position (or inside) before he came to Miami and that they were surprised at how well he plays it. To me it's like a duck in water because I watched him quite a bit in St. Louis and while he showed potential to play on the outside he looks all the more comfortable playing the slot. I will always like Davone Bess but Gibson is an upgrade talent wise and I can admit that.
That's what I'm talking about buddy, you damn strait he is....R Matthews is no joke, Some of us really pimpin him this offseason, thought Binns had no chance against him, it took a while because of the injury, but he's doing exactly what I thought he would do, and that's plain beastin and hunting for PT.. For a sixth round pick, I'm very exciting about his future as a dolphin.
No. Where did you get that from? Your statements were as follows: Statement #1: "I would say that the number threads that point out that the FO did in fact make good decisions are a drop in the bucket compared to the number of threads that bash every FO decision. Statement #2: "Since there have been multiple threads for the last several years specifically about firing Ireland and very few that praise the good decisions, I can't understand why you'd be surprised." I asserted that those two statements were false. You're erecting a strawman by turning around and saying that I must believe there are more threads praising Ireland than bashing him. That's not what I said. I said the following: Reply #1: "I would be very surprised if that were even close to true." (re: Ireland praising threads being "a drop in the bucket" compared to Ireland bashing threads) Reply #2: "That's just blatantly false." (re: there being "very few" threads praising Ireland)
It seems you're trying to change the argument. You went from stating that the number of threads praising Ireland were "a drop in the bucket compared to" the number bashing him. Then you said there were "very few" threads that praise him. Now you're saying there are just more threads bashing him than praising him. So if there were 17 threads bashing him and 16 threads praising him, your original statements still hold?
Yeah Matthews is for real and I think the majority of us started to feel that way when he started getting reps towards the end of last season. I can't believe we are 4 deep at WR the way we are. When was the last time that happened?
I don't believe it's close. I was shocked that anyone would claim otherwise. Ireland was often labeled "embattled" for just that reason.
Embattled implies arguments on both sides. And there has been plenty of that. There have been a number of threads made in support of him. Hell just about any time something good happened in free agency or in the draft, there was at least one thread popping up either outwardly praising Ireland or making fun of those who criticize him (which is basically the same thing). I think DJ alone has probably made three or four of them. Possibly more.
