Brian Hartline

"Dee wrote:

Hartline's a good player. Except for left tackle, wide receiver is pretty much the position of least need on offense. We have enough wide receivers. We just need a better QB. As a No. 3 guy, Hartline is very solid. If Gates plays up to his potential, he could eventually move Hartline out to a No. 4 guy, which would be outstanding.

But ultimately, quarterbacks make receivers a lot more than receivers make quarterbacks. Marshall's a great receiver, Bess is a very good receiver, and Hartline is a quality receiver as well. We just need Henne to make better decisions.

You look really pretty in your avatar young lady. I hope you will post more often. :)

"rdhstlr23 wrote:

So, you're judgement on how well Brian Hartline is as a player, are the statistics that Brandon Marshall and Davone Bess achieve?

You're basically saying that there is nothing Brian Hartline can do statistically as a player that would make you change your opinion on what a number 2 WR should be.

I will tell you this...If Brian Hartline puts up over 1,000 yards with 5-7 TD's, you will be the only Miami Dolphin fan clamoring for him to be replaced. ONLY one.

What a #2 "should be" should be dependent on what kind of players you have at #1 WR, #1 TE, and slot WR. #2 requirements could drastically change from an Anthony Armstrong type to a Brian Hartline depending on what the team needs or is lacking. We're not lacking in move the chain type possession receivers; we ARE lacking speed and the ability to effectively stretch the field.

If Hartline puts up 1000+ yards with 5-7 TDs, it's either b/c he injects some of Andre Johnson's DNA into him or because his presence allows teams to quintuple Marshall to where they could care less if Hartline has impressive statistics provided Miami doesn't see the endzone. Again, Hartline's individual performance is less important than the performance of our offense as a whole. If Hartline "looks good in the stat column" but the rest of the offense does worse b/c Brian's presence prevents us from being dynamic, then his stats don't mean a hill of beans.

The Miami Dolphins have only had 14 WR's put up 1K yard in a season...IN THEIR HISTORY. And now, we're going to say that if he does it it still won't change your view?

LOL. Now you're expecting him to put up 1k yards? I used 1k as an extreme to make a point that 1k for Brian would be less impacting to our offense than a legit vertical threat who totals 700 yards but allows players around him to maximize their potential.

Perfect example: Eddie Royal. He hasn't gotten worse (despite what his stats would indicate). It's a known fact that for the past 2 years he's been used a good deal as a decoy to draw coverage to help open plays for guys around him. Would you rather have Eddie Royal with 980 yards & 5 TDs (rookie year) or 2010 Royal's 627 & 3 TDs with his presence helping Brandon Lloyd catch 1448 yards and 11 TDs (or Marshall hitting double digit TDs for the only time in his career the year before)? I could go on for days with these examples over history. Hartline inevitably will put up decent stats b/c defenses don't really care if his stats are good as long as Marshall isn't beating them; defenses understand Hartline isn't a playmaker, a scorer, so they can afford to give him 85 yards and likely no TDs if it means limiting Brandon. A DC is crazy to not approach it that way, and until we find a more threatening #2, defenses will continue doing so, and our offensive production will continue paying for it. Defenses do this trade-off in virtually every sport.

Hartline opposite Marshall is like batting in front of Albert Pujols. Pitchers (defenses) are more concerned about Pujols beating them, so the batter in front will see more opportunities.

Please tell me, just once, what about Hartline's skill set helps Marshall maximize his game potential? And why is it that you feel a #2 who defenses have to worry more about has no impact on our short-intermediate game with Marshall, Bess, Fasano, and Bush?

Your view of Brian Hartline is already flawed. It's because you believe he's an inferior player to all three of those guys. You believe his skillset to be ordinary, or rather, similar to the others. What you're failing to realize is he might just be a better player than those guys.

Sorry, but yours is flawed. When will you understand that this is a team game, and it doesn't matter if Hartline's individual stats are better (or even if he's better) than someone else. I don't think his skill set is ordinary at all. His skill set is dissimilar to the other guys, but even though they're dissimilar, he's still a possession receiver.

Let's make this simple; lets pretend the #2 spot is vacant.
We have:
A. Marshall who is an elite possession receiver.
B. Bess who's a great possession receiver.
C. Fasano who's a possession TE.
D. #2 WR spot open.

Considering A&B are NOT changing (b/c they're infinitely more important to the offense than D), and C isn't changing (b/c he's temporarily the only guy we have), find for D. Is the optimal candidate another solid possession receiver who lacks playmaking ability and isn't a threat to stretch the field?.... or is it a guy who compliments A, B, C, (and E, Quarterback)? Going after the guy compliments our offense the best isn't rocket science.

I can assure you that Kevin Walters is not the reason Andre Johnson is the player he is. He's the player he is because his QB allows him opportunities to make plays even in the face of difficult matchups. It's not because Kevin Walters frees him up.

-Andre Johnson has the downfield ability and speed to create his own mismatches; Marshall, not as much. Brandon needs more help from others to create space for him to make plays. Andre is the player he is b/c he can create his own separation and can routinely dominate defenders downfield w/o looking awkward at times in the process; Marshall is more of a short-intermediate guy; therefore he NEEDS help from others to ensure he catches these passes with room to run.
-Andre has a playmaker in Jacoby Jones, so its OK to have a possession guy like Walter. Walter IStheir possession guy.
How irrational are you going to make this?
-Andre has outstanding TEs who can make plays and threaten the seam (hence draw more coverage); Brandon does NOT, and since Brandon frequently runs shorter routes, if TEs (or #2 WR) could draw more coverage from LBs & Safeties, Brandon would have less defenders draped over him upon reception; hence, he might actually tack on some YAC.

However, since Brandon's NOT afforded a TE capable of such, and since Bess is NOT a slot receiver capable of such, that leaves ONE position available to help him out by creating more space...... the #2 spot, and Hartline doesn't qualify.

This faulty logic of you need a speed guy to help Brandon Marshall, or speed guy, a possession guy and a quick slot receiver is so damned bogus.

If it's so bogus, why did we make speed such a priority this offseason? Nice of you to condense EVERYTHING that GM and I have stated down to "it's all about speed" in order to give your argument any sort of legs to stand on. There are plenty of 4.5 guys who can make plays down field and force defense to pay them respect; unfortunately Hartline ain't one..... and that's the problem.
Talk about bogus. You really don't understand how positions impact each other do you? Maybe you should switch to golf or tennis where individual stats bear more significance.

The Eagles have 387249837298372 speed WRs on their team. The New England Patriots have 3223798374032972 possession WR's on their team. It's about the offense and getting guys who have the ability to make plays.

Yup, and the Eagles offense is scary BECAUSE of this speed and playmaking ability on the outside. Vick had a career year b/c of it, and LeSean McCoy is a better threat out of the backfield b/c of it. Jackson & Maclin help that offense to be extremely hard to defend. And your foolish to speak against it b/c if you've ever heard Vick talk about what DeSean's vertical ability does for the offense AND for Vick, you'd probably not be speaking such gibberish.

And the plethora of NE possession receivers with no vertical threat still was NOT enough for Brady to beat NY b/c the Jets did NOT have to worry about defending the deep pass. These possession receivers posed such an obstacle that NE brought in OCHO CINCO (one of the best deep threats the past 10 years) to fill this void.

Hey, but apparently you know more than the NFL personnel of successful teams. :glare:

In Hartline's short time here, all he's shown is his ability to make plays.

WHAT?!!!! Dropping big passes, not scoring, coughing up passes to defenders? That's considered "doing nothing but making plays"?!!! Have you watched any other football the past 10 years outside of Miami or Jax games? He's a decent to solid intermediate receiver who has little ability to make plays when the ball is in his hands and has little ability to make plays while the ball is in the air..... so please tell me how that's considered "doing nothing but making plays"? Doing a good job of getting open on short-intermediate routes does NOT making him a playmaker; it makes him a possession receiver.

Unbelievable. There are other areas on this team that could use an upgrade, other than Brian Hartline or WR.

Oh yeah? and what are those 23897432948230942709 areas that are so readily available? That's a cop out excuse for you to rationalize that it's acceptable for Brian to be nothing more than average at his position b/c of your bias toward him. Why don't we let everyone be average while we're at it?.... We'll be a GREAT team then!!

By the way, being complacent with average Hartline as a starter doesn't only affect the #2 WR spot, it brings down the performance of #1 WR, TE, Slot WR, QB, and ground game b/c the #2 WR spot is the ONLY position available that we can add the down field element to. Our front office understands this (hence the handful of 4.3 guys brought in), so why is this still so difficult for you to comprehend and accept? Is your affinity toward Hartline that great that his average play is immune to upgrading? Is your affinity that great that you'd sacrifice everyone else's potential just to keep Brian on the field?

Not to mention, why do we need a deep threat to help Marshall when he's shown that ability in the past and from all indications looks capable this year?

Really? And exactly WHO is preventing 3 guys from following Marshall down field while Hartline is being single covered bc teams aren't worried about Brian? Is it Fasano? Nope. Bess? Nope. Jake Long? Nope.

Even if Marshall serves as a deep threat when he's running deep routes, WHO is serving as the deep threat during all of Brandon's short to intermediate routes? That's where he needs the most help.

"MrClean wrote:

You look really pretty in your avatar young lady. I hope you will post more often. :)

Especially if Dee........ ees boobies are really hers and not belonging to a guy trying to show off a nice rack like some idiots do.

sorry, but Hartline doesnt scare anyone and people gave Chris Chambers grief and he mad way more spectacular catches and was faster and more athletic so i dont see why people are so high on a receiver that does not have the wow facter and players with the wow factor usually makes a big difference .

on the flip side i will give Hartline more of a chance and I will root for him ; its just seems like people disliked a wr that made big plays while the other gets anointed as a great wr when he hasnt made the impressive plays that Miami needs to have to win the big games.

"Southbeach wrote:

In 2009, Hartline (a rookie) had 31 catches for a 16.3 average, and ZERO fumbles. :)
In 2010, he had 43 catches for a 14.3 average, and ONE fumble, missing 4 games.

What more does everyone want from him?

ahem, touchdowns? I noticed you left that particular category out.

Uh, I'm not a woman. And that's Kate Upton.

Rdhstlr23,

I suppose you're going to argue that it's merely a coincidence that we brought in:
4.3 Gates
4.3 Carter
4.3 Bush
4.3 Grigsby

Now whyyyy would they do that? Do GM & I really have that much influence to where they feel compelled to pacify us? :lol:

"Dee wrote:

Uh, I'm not a woman. And that's Kate Upton.

Welcome to ThePhins, Kate Upton imposter. lol.

"Aquafin wrote:

sorry, but Hartline doesnt scare anyone and people gave Chris Chambers grief and he mad way more spectacular catches and was faster and more athletic so i dont see why people are so high on a receiver that does not have the wow facter and players with the wow factor usually makes a big difference .

on the flip side i will give Hartline more of a chance and I will root for him ; its just seems like people disliked a wr that made big plays while the other gets anointed as a great wr when he hasnt made the impressive plays that Miami needs to have to win the big games.

There's nothing wrong with rooting for him. People act as if WR is like LT and will never see the field if they're not starting.

As a #4 he would still serve a valuable role.... an even more valuable role than he is at #2 WR.
As a #2, Hartline is average.
HOWEVER, as a #4, Hartline would be exceptional. We would have much more freedom on offense if he were our #4..... and as our #4 it would mean our depth is outstanding rather than the garbage depth we had last year. Look at the depth the Packers have at WR. Jordy Nelson would be our #2 here, but he was a #4 in GB, and they were better for it..... and guess what?---- he still contributed and helped them win a super bowl.

Hartline as a #4 means we improved our #2 spot AND our depth. Why the mothergrabbin heck is that such a turn off for some people? I don't get it. what. so ever.

"ToddsPhins wrote:

What a #2 "should be" should be dependent on what kind of players you have at #1 WR, #1 TE, and slot WR. #2 requirements could drastically change from an Anthony Armstrong type to a Brian Hartline depending on what the team needs or is lacking. We're not lacking in move the chain type possession receivers; we ARE lacking speed and the ability to effectively stretch the field.

If Hartline puts up 1000+ yards with 5-7 TDs, it's either b/c he injects some of Andre Johnson's DNA into him or because his presence allows teams to quintuple Marshall to where they could care less if Hartline has impressive statistics provided Miami doesn't see the endzone. Again, Hartline's individual performance is less important than the performance of our offense as a whole. If Hartline "looks good in the stat column" but the rest of the offense does worse b/c Brian's presence prevents us from being dynamic, then his stats don't mean a hill of beans.

LOL. Now you're expecting him to put up 1k yards? I used 1k as an extreme to make a point that 1k for Brian would be less impacting to our offense than a legit vertical threat who totals 700 yards but allows players around him to maximize their potential.

Perfect example: Eddie Royal. He hasn't gotten worse (despite what his stats would indicate). It's a known fact that for the past 2 years he's been used a good deal as a decoy to draw coverage to help open plays for guys around him. Would you rather have Eddie Royal with 980 yards & 5 TDs (rookie year) or 2010 Royal's 627 & 3 TDs with presence helping Brandon Lloyd catch 1448 yards and 11 TDs (or Marshall hitting double digit TDs for the only time in his career the year before)? I could go on for days with these examples over history. Hartline inevitably will put up decent stats b/c defenses don't really care if his stats are good as long as Marshall isn't beating them; defenses understand Hartline isn't a playmaker, a scorer, so they can afford to give him 85 yards and likely no TDs if it means limiting Brandon. A DC is crazy to not approach it that way, and until we find a more threatening #2, defenses will continue doing so, and our offensive production will continue paying for it. Defenses do this trade-off in virtually every sport.

Hartline opposite Marshall is like batting in front of Albert Pujols. Pitchers (defenses) are more concerned about Pujols beating them, so the batter in front will see more opportunities opportunities.

Please tell me, just once, what about Hartline's skill set helps Marshall maximize his game potential? And why is it that you feel a #2 who defenses have to worry more about has no impact on our short-intermediate game with Marshall, Bess, Fasano, and Bush?

Sorry, but yours is flawed. When will you understand that this is a team game, and it doesn't matter if Hartline's individual stats are better (or even if he's better) than someone else. I don't think his skill set is ordinary at all. His skill set is dissimilar to the other guys, but even though they're dissimilar, he's still a possession receiver.

Let's make this simple; lets pretend the #2 spot is vacant.
We have:
A. Marshall who is an elite possession receiver.
B. Bess who's a great possession receiver.
C. Fasano who's a possession TE.
D. #2 WR spot open.

Considering A&B are NOT changing (b/c they're infinitely more important to the offense than D), and C isn't changing (b/c he's temporarily the only guy we have), find for D. Is the optimal candidate another solid possession receiver who lacks playmaking ability and isn't a threat to stretch the field?.... or is it a guy who compliments A, B, C, (and E, Quarterback)? Going after the best guy who compliments best isn't rocket science.

-Andre Johnson has the downfield ability and speed to created his own mismatches; Marshall, not as much. Brandon needs more help from others to create space for him to make plays. Andre is the player he is b/c he can create his own separation and can routinely dominate defenders downfield w/o looking awkward at times in the process; Marshall is more of a short-intermediate guy; therefore he NEEDS help from others to ensure he catches these passes with room to run.
-Andre has a playmaker in Jacoby Jones, so its OK to have a possession guy like Walter. Walter IStheir possession guy.
How irrational are you going to make this?
-Andre has outstanding TEs who can make plays and threaten the seam (hence draw more coverage); Brandon does NOT, and since Brandon frequently runs shorter routes, if TEs (or #2 WR) could draw more coverage from LBs & Safeties, Brandon would have less defenders draped over him upon reception; hence, he might actually tack on some YAC.

However, since Brandon's NOT afforded a TE capable of such, and since Bess is NOT a slot receiver capable of such, that leaves ONE position available to help him out by creating more space...... the #2 spot, and Hartline doesn't qualify.

If it's so bogus, why did we make speed such a priority this offseason? Nice of you to condense EVERYTHING that GM and I have stated down to "it's all about speed" in order to give your argument any sort of legs to stand on. There are plenty of 4.5 guys who can make plays down field and force defense to pay them respect; unfortunately Hartline ain't one..... and that's the problem.
Talk about bogus. You really don't understand how positions impact each other do you? Maybe you should switch to golf or tennis where individual stats bear more significance.

Yup, and the Eagles offense is scary BECAUSE of this speed and playmaking ability on the outside. Vick had a career year b/c of it, and LeSean McCoy is a better threat out of the backfield b/c of it. Jackson & Maclin help that offense to be extremely hard to defend. And your foolish to speak against it b/c if you've ever heard Vick talk about what DeSean's vertical ability does for the offense AND for Vick, you'd probably not be speaking such gibberish.

And the plethora of possession receivers with no vertical threat still was NOT enough for Brady to beat NY b/c the Jets did NOT have to worry about defending the deep pass. These possession receivers posed such an obstacle that NE brought in OCHO CINCO (one of the best deep threats the past 10 years) to fill this void.

Hey, but apparently you know more than the NFL personnel of successful teams. :glare:

WHAT?!!!! Dropping big passes, not scoring, coughing up passes to defenders? That's considered "doing nothing but making plays"?!!! Have you watched any other football the past 10 years outside of Miami or Jax games? He's a decent to solid intermediate receiver who has little ability to make plays when the ball is in his hands and has little ability to make plays while the ball is in the air..... so please tell me how that's considered "doing nothing but making plays"? Doing a good job of getting open on short-intermediate routes does NOT making him a playmaker; it makes him a possession receiver.

Oh yeah? and what are those 23897432948230942709 areas that are so readily available? That's a cop out excuse to rationalize it's acceptable for Brian to be nothing more than average at his position b/c you're biased toward him. Why don't we let everyone be average while we're at it?.... We'll be a GREAT team then!!

By the way, being complacent with average Hartline as a starter doesn't only affect the #2 WR spot, it brings down the performance of #1 WR, TE, Slot WR, QB, and ground game b/c the #2 WR spot is the ONLY position available that we can add the down field element to. Our front office understands this (hence the handful of 4.3 guys brought in), so why is this still so difficult for you to comprehend and accept? Is your affinity toward Hartline that great that his average play is immune to upgrading? Is your affinity that great that you'd sacrifice everyone else's potential just to keep Brian on the field?

Really? And exactly WHO is preventing 3 guys from following Marshall down field while Hartline is being single covered bc teams aren't worried about Brian? Is it Fasano? Nope. Bess? Nope. Jake Long? Nope.

Even if Marshall serves as a deep threat when he's running deep routes, WHO is serving as the deep threat during all of Brandon's short to intermediate routes? That's where he needs the most help.

So, the basis of your argument is that the role of the #2 WR is to draw coverage away from the #1 WR because he should offer a different skill set than that of the #1 WR?

The problem here is that YOU view our players as move the chains guys. That's what I'm trying to tell you here. Brian Hartline's stats don't indicate that he is just a "move the chains" type of guy. He is a guy that provides chunk yardage. Again, the statistics SHOW that, every sense of the word. You've yet to debate what is true. You only debate what is your OPINION. Not to mention, you're pidgeon-holeing Brandon Marshall's ability. Brandon Marshall is another chunk yardage player. He has the ability to people people deep. He has the ability to gain YAC. All those things. And no, it's not because Brian Hartline's inability as a player or his skillset is the reason why Marshall didn't have nice YAC numbers.

You love to pin EVERYTHING (a little more specific here - Dan Henning, the play-calling, the play design, the routes ran, etc.) on why Chad Henne's success was hindered. Yet, you fail to use that same logic and reasoning for other players. Is it so crazy to think that maybe our WR's were not utilized correctly? Is it crazy to think that the play-calling didn't help them out? No. Of course not. It's they are the problem. Not to mention, no merit is given to the idea that maybe, just maybe our 75.4 rated QB might have not given much help in that department either.

BTW, Brian Hartline didn't need Andre Johnson's DNA injected in him or Brandon Marshall to be quintuple teamed to put up those numbers.

Through 12 games, he averaged 51.2 ypg. In the 12th game vs. Cleveland he was injured the 1st QTR. If Brian Hartline isn't injured he's on his way to 1,000 yards. You extrapolate 615 yards by 11 games (because he hardly played in Game 12) and he's averaging 56 ypg. Average that out over 16 games and he's in line for a 900 yard season. But that doesn't tell the story because Hartline came out of the gates so poorly, which killed his season average. If you take the average of how he was playing hte last 6 games before he was injured (averaging 73 ypg), and average that over the last 4 games played, he breaks the 1,000 yard barrier or comes very close.

Not to mention over those 6 games, he beat the hell out of Nnamdi Asmougha where no Brandon Marshall was present. He also posted fine games against NYJ, CIN, PIT, BAL, & CHI who all had fine pass defenses and players playing opposite of him.

Please stop using the fact he didn't find the endzone to diminish his ability!!! If you're going to use that argument then I don't want here anymore excuses about why Chad Henne's TD numbers were so low. How can Brian Hartline score TD's when he's facing the same issues you say Henne is? Does he get more opportunities out of the Wildcat? Does he get more opportunities from playing for FG's? Does he get more opportunities from poor play-calling and play design? No. He doesn't.

I mean shoot, the few opportunities he had at fades call his way, the ball isn't EVEN CLOSE to him. He isn't even allowed to make a play. So again, how can you diminish him by using that logic. That is faulty logic.

Huh? Did you just say Hartline's offense is less important or imply that it isn't important? I'm sorry to tell you this bud, but Brandon Marshall will continue to see double coverage. So, it's absolutely important how well Brian Hartline performs in his opportunities. Someone is going to need to take advantage of those 1-on-1 match ups. Again, from every statistic that is provided, he did just that. And he did it better than most of the #2 WR's that you said were better. If Brian Hartline is making plays, how is he making the offense less dynamic?

I agree that a vertical threat improves the big play threat of the offense. However, what you use to measure a big play threat is just incorrect. You use 40 yard dash times to consummate what a deep threat is. That's so far from the truth it's funny. Some guys utilize that speed, others are faster than their 40 times indicate.

Not to mention, this whole nonsense that he only gets by on double moves, play action, etc. is so much hogwash. Ted Ginn is one of the fastest players in the game, yet Brian Hartline has more big plays than he does. Why is that? It's because he knows how to use his speed and he knows how to do a better job of getting open than Ginn does. And that isn't the only example. Brian Hartline is hands down better than Nate Washington in every statistical measurement except for a 40 yard dash.

Also, while I'm on my soap box here, why is it satisfactory to use statistics such as 3rd down completion, red zone statistics, etc. to show Henne's aptitude as a player, but yet, statistics don't "mean a hill of beans" about Brian Hartline. Again, it's faulty logic. You're using a set of logic to defend a bias towards a player and yet don't use the same thing for another. I almost wish you'd just say you know what. I like Henne and I don't like Hartline. That's what it comes down to. It's nothing about the statistics you've shown. It's about your opinion. I'm just showing that their is absolutely NO CONSISTENCY in the logic to your arguments.

It's a known fact that Eddie Royal has been used as a decoy? Show me anywhere I can read that. Show me a scout's assessment. Show me a press conference of Josh McDaniels stating that. Show me tape. Show me something. That sounds you completely pulling something directly out of your butt to prove a point, which by the way would be one of the only consistent things your arguments have shown.

Eddie Royal is the reason Brandon Lloyd had a big season? Not because he was in a WR friendly offense, that has allowed Randy Moss & Brandon Marshall before him to enjoy the best seasons of their careers? Not because he had an adequate QB throwing him the football? Not because he was fortunate to play against some of the worst pass defenses in the league last year? Not because he was a complete no name headed into the season an no one gave a rat's butt about the guy? Not because his team was continually down in games, and teams played soft coverage against him? Not because he also was blessed with a little bit of talent?

Not because any of those factors, but because Eddie Royal was being used as a decoy? I'll tell you this. Wes Welker sure wasn't used as a decoy in Josh McDaniels offense in 2007 & 2008. By the way, was it Eddie Royal being used as a decoy in 2009 that led to Brandon Marshall's big statistical lines? Because I'll tell you, Eddie Royal stunk in 2009 too. So, ya, he is declining.

I dunno watching these highlight videos make me think these skills would complement A LOT of WR's in this league.

You're not telling me anything I don't know already. Of course defenses are more concerned about Brandon Marshall. And Brian Hartline has shown that he has been able to make big chunk yardage plays opposite of him. He's shown he's more than adequate. Again, debate the statistics he has against other #2 WRs I broke down and tell me otherwise.

Why do you consider him a possession WR? Again, put Brian Hartline and all of his statistics against other players in his situation and he's been better than most. YOU categorize him as such because you don't see him go deep every play and because he doesn't run a sub 4.4. That's what YOU believe categorizes a deep threat. Yet, you criticize for Dan Henning not calling enough deep plays and Chad Henne not having enough chances to capitalize on plays down the field, but again you discredit Hartline for his lack of ability to go deep. Ever think maybe he didn't get a lot of those plays designed for him? Or not enough? Maybe the same way you believe Henne needs more attempts to be successful, Hartline needs more attempts to be successful? Again, use the same consistent logic. That's all I'm asking.

I gotta tell ya. I think the problem with your reasoning is that YOUR scouting report on our players is completely different than that of everyone else's.

I won't deny that Andre Johnson isn't a better WR than Marshall. But, what if any evidence at all, would suggest that Brandon Marshall doesn't have the capabilities of going deep and being dynamic there?

You gave me all these great pieces that the Houston Texans offense has, and you've said how crappy our offense was in lacking playmakers, YET Brian Hartline has made more plays THAN ALL OF THEM! And that isn't just me pulling that out of my butt. That's actual factual statistics, past production to show that.

Uh, speed and chunk yardage was a priority in 2010 too. That brought in the guy who you didn't think does that very well to do that. You know that guy that was clocked at 22.5 mph, and running a sub 4.4 now and has shown, other than last year, every single measurement available to us that he does have the ability to beat teams deep. That guy named Brandon Marshall.

"We need big playmakers," Dolphins General Manager Jeff Ireland said in February. "We need players that make chunk yardage. We need players that score touchdowns. We need to get more production out of the wide receiver position."

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-04-14/sports/sfl-brandon-marshall-dolphins-04142010_1_davone-bess-talented-receivers-miami-dolphins

If you'd read my reasoning of using the Eagles as a basis of point, you'd understand. You said that you bring in players with different skill sets to maximize the total strength of your offense. They have the same guy, as you agreed above. They have nothing but speed, yet they are still incredibly dynamic. The opposite is said of the NE Patriots. They were incredibly dynamic without that "deep/speed" threat.

BTW, don't diminish the incredible offense of the NE Patriots because they didn't win a Super Bowl. They ran into a team that had the ability to match up well against them. To say because a particular team beat them on that day as a way to discredit one of the best offensive years ever in football is so ridiculous.

I don't know more than successful teams because apparently I don't watch NFL rewind where all I can see is one camera shot of a play. I guess I need to watch that 16 times when it shows me nothing about how a play was opening up, who might have been open, where the reads were etc. Because yup, a TV angle shows all of that and we can see all of that from angle.

If he's a possession WR, than why does he have more big plays than most of the players that are in his position? Why? Please. Answer me that. Again, YOU view him as that. But that statistics SHOW YOU ARE WRONG. He does make plays. He is capable of making a guy miss here and there. He is capable of getting behind a defender for a deep play. He does run very precise routes.

You act like all he does is drop balls the way Chad Henne sucks balls. Again, couldn't be further from the truth.

Again, more with the scoring. I just need to stop with this because it's such a profoundly ridiculous argument that you make against him, but yet make for Henne in his defense that it no longer deserves my time.

"ToddsPhins wrote:

Rdhstlr23,

I suppose you're going to argue that it's merely a coincidence that we brought in:
4.3 Gates
4.3 Carter
4.3 Bush
4.3 Grigsby

Now whyyyy would they do that? Do GM & I really have that much influence to where they feel compelled to pacify us? :lol:

You're seriously going to tout guys that might not even make the roster? Grigsby and Carter UDFA's are now supposed to be reasons to improve the offense? This organization has done it every year since they came here. 2010 is no different. Because they want to add speed that means Hartline is incapable.

Well I can tell you right from the horse's mouth that your view of Brian Hartline doesn't match up with what the team's view is.

11. The need for speed at receiver very well could come from within. “Brian (Hartline) can run,” Sparano said. “I don’t know that people would classify Brian as a speed guy, but I do. I think the guy’s been behind people a bunch of times, and we just haven’t made the play.” Sparano said Marlon Moore, entering his second season, “might be the fastest guy that we have.” And Sparano noted that “we have some practice squad guys that are all in different shapes and sizes,” including Julius Pruitt, who was signed to the 53-man roster at the end of the season and has elite speed.

http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2011/03/29/27-things-we-learned-about-the-miami-dolphins-from-the-nfl-owners-meetings/

EDIT: So if Grigsby & Carter are cut or moved to the practice squad will that mean they don't view speed as that important? C'mon now dude. You love to reach, speculate, and pull your own bias into making it truth. Unfortunately, you're wrong.

"CitizenSnips wrote:

ahem, touchdowns? I noticed you left that particular category out.

So Brian Hartline should be scoring Touchdowns from the non-throws Henne is making?
Chad Henne is exonerated from low TD totals due to being asked out from the Wildcat, poor play-calling, poor play design, and a poor offensive scheme, but Brian Hartline is not?

Again, I don't get.

"ToddsPhins wrote:

Rdhstlr23,

I suppose you're going to argue that it's merely a coincidence that we brought in:
4.3 Gates
4.3 Carter
4.3 Bush
4.3 Grigsby

Now whyyyy would they do that? Do GM & I really have that much influence to where they feel compelled to pacify us? :lol:

Miami has done that EVERY YEAR. This might be the first year it was done with a 4th round pick.

"rdhstlr23 wrote:

You're seriously going to tout guys that might not even make the roster? Grigsby and Carter UDFA's are now supposed to be reasons to improve the offense? This organization has done it every year since they came here. 2010 is no different. Because they want to add speed that means Hartline is incapable.

Well I can tell you right from the horse's mouth that your view of Brian Hartline doesn't match up with what the team's view is.

http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2011/03/29/27-things-we-learned-about-the-miami-dolphins-from-the-nfl-owners-meetings/

EDIT: So if Grigsby & Carter are cut or moved to the practice squad will that mean they don't view speed as that important? C'mon now dude. You love to reach, speculate, and pull your own bias into making it truth. Unfortunately, you're wrong.

If that's all you have on Hartline being a vertical threat then you have problems. lol.
Uhhhh, so with all our needs we take Gates, the fastest receiver in the draft, with our 3rd pick? Keep trying to pull that wool buddy. :tongue2:

And what is it that our GM, Ireland, said? (you know---- the guy responsible for actually bringing the players in)

For once, please stop avoiding the question and list in detail why for the love of god Hartline is a bona fide vertical threat.
I've yet to see you or anyone support this notion. I don't want stats like yards per catch which are misleading in this case, and I don't want "well, there was that one time he beat a rookie corner in single coverage".

And by the way, Tony speaks up about all his players in case you haven't noticed. Saying "I think the guy's been behind players a bunch of times" isn't necessarily a vote of confidence. "Think" can imply uncertainty.

Now if he said, "Brian's a blazer and routinely beats single coverage deep"..... or "Teams have such a hard time staying with Hartline deep that they have to pay him extra attention which really opens up opportunities for Marshall & crew"....... yeah, then you'd be onto something. You see the difference there?

Listen to other coaches, players, and QBs talk about their deep threats. It's entirely different than the fluffed up stuff Tony said about Brian.

"ToddsPhins wrote:

If that's all you have on Hartline being a vertical threat then you have problems. lol.
Uhhhh, so with all our needs we take Gates, the fastest receiver in the draft, with our 3rd pick? Keep trying to pull that wool buddy. :tongue2:

And what is it that our GM said? (you know---- the guy responsible for actually bringing the players in)

For once, please stop avoiding the question and list in detail why for the love of god Hartline is a bona fide vertical threat.
I've yet to see you or anyone support this notion.

I don't want stats like yards per catch which are misleading in this case, and I don't want "well, there was that one time he beat a rookie corner in single coverage".

And by the way, Tony speaks up about all his players in case you haven't noticed. Saying "I think the guy's been behind players a bunch of times" isn't necessarily a vote of confidence. "Think" implies uncertainty.

Now if he said, "Brian's a blazer and routinely beats single coverage deep"..... or "Teams have such a hard time staying with Hartline deep that they have to pay him extra attention which really opens up opportunities for Marshall & crew"....... yeah, then you'd be onto something. You see the difference there?

Listen to other coaches, players, and QBs talk about their deep threats. It's entirely different than the fluffed up stuff Tony said about Brian.

I like the way you use 3rd pick, instead of 4th round.

"PhinishLine wrote:

Outside of Dolphins diehards its pretty much "Brian who?"

We are seriously going to try and will him to greatness.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

EXACTLY!!!

Dolfans defend Hartline tooth and nail. But what NFL defense comes into a game vs Miami thinking "We've got to stop Hartline this week"?

What Dolfan goes into a game thinking "Hartline is going to SHRED DB X who's going to be covering him this week"?

I'm listening.

"MrClean wrote:

You look really pretty in your avatar young lady. I hope you will post more often. :)

lol..

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

Miami has done that EVERY YEAR. This might be the first year it was done with a 4th round pick.

Uhhh... so just how many picks would they have to do it with to satisfy you? 14? Our 3rd pick's not enough evidence? So what you're saying is we have NOT done it every year despite your terrible attempt to make it seem like we have? The draft picks are where the "effort" is implied.

Hartline over-drafted in 4th round in 09. Hartline insufficiently acting as #2 WR in 2010. Gates drafted in 2011. I see some chronology there.

Surely with the 2355456675444 other holes that you mentioned we have, there's no reason for us to use our 3rd pick of the draft on a WR!!! Unless..... no.... it cant be....... we want him to supplant Hartline.

Let's see----- It's the 4th round and we're on the clock.... tick tock tick tock: QB? nope.... LG? nope... RT? nope... Another RB? nope... Pass rusher? Nope... Nickel CB? Nope..... SS?. Nope....... ILB? Nope..... TE? Nope.
Speedy, playmaking WR to replace Hartline? DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"KingMotion wrote:

It's Kate Upton

the most beautiful dumpling I've ever seen..seriously, if some of you dont know who she is, google her, ridiculously delicious.

"GMJohnson wrote:

EXACTLY!!!

Dolfans defend Hartline tooth and nail. But what NFL defense comes into a game vs Miami thinking "We've got to stop Hartline this week"?

What Dolfan goes into a game thinking "Hartline is going to SHRED DB X who's going to be covering him this week"?

I'm listening.

Exact same could be said about the Dolphins quarterback position.

Michael Lombardi had some salient comments about Miami's wide receiver situation.

http://www.wqam.com/index.php?page=347

"ToddsPhins wrote:

Uhhh... so just how many picks would they have to do it with to satisfy you? 14? Our 3rd pick's not enough evidence? So what you're saying is we have NOT done it every year despite your terrible attempt to make it seem like we haven't. Draft picks are where "effort" is implied. Hartline over-drafted in 4th round in 09. Hartline insufficiently acting as #2 WR in 2010. Gates drafted in 2011. I see some chronology there.

Surely with the 2355456675444 other holes that you mentioned we have, there's no reason for us to use our 3rd pick of the draft on a WR!!! Unless..... no.... it cant be....... we want him to supplant Hartline.

Let's see----- 4th round is and we're on the clock: QB? nope........ LG? nope....... RT? nope........... Another RB? nope............. Pass rusher? Nope.......... Nickel CB? Nope......... SS?. Nope....... ILB? Nope. TE? Nope.
Speedy, playmaking WR to replace Hartline? DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wait...... so what you're saying is Miami has actually NOT done that EVERY year b/c Miami has NOT drafted a playmaking sub 4.5 WR or playmaking TE during the 3 years prior.

It is the fourth round. Doesn't really back up your evidence. No team picks a wide receiver in the 4th round hoping he becomes the #2 wide receiver.

Every year Miami has picked up sub 4.5 receivers. The only difference is this year they used a 4th round pick. That is not saying much.

I didn't mention any big numbers of holes Miami had. In fact using the 4th round pick is good enough to want to supplant Moore or Wallace and have a solid 4th receiver/kick returner. Perfect place to draft a 4th receiver/kick returner is the 4th round.

"RoninFin4 wrote:

Exact same could be said about the Dolphins quarterback position.

They say much worse about the quarterback position. They say Miami is dumb for not trading for a mediocre quarterback.

Wow. Can't believe some of the arguments against Hartline.
.
Also, what does it say about Henne when the regime tried replacing him three, if not four, times?

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

They say much worse about the quarterback position. They say Miami is dumb for not trading for a mediocre quarterback.

Didn't really mean it in that regard, but that does fit as well. Frankly, I'm glad they didn't trade for Kyle Orton. But I think Jeff Ireland and Tony Sparano have failed to develop him properly, and I think they've made poor moves with regard to the offensive side of the ball. The last thing I want is another 7-9 season with a middle of the first round draft pick, but I think that's exactly what we're staring at thanks to how good the defense is. Marc Colombo, Reggie Bush, not getting Bradshaw or an athletic LG...just more wrong to go along with the QB spot.