Ray Charles could have seen this.

And honestly, he probably should have drawn more flags than he did.

 

He was most held last year too, I believe.

 

Probably? I'd bet my left nut that he was held on 90% of all passing plays he was in on.

 

Well good thing you're not betting the right one because that's a ballsy bet.

 

That's why we got the new uniforms, duhhhh lol nike's all about that tight fit.

 

and I know something sexual is gonna come outta that last post lol

 

Allow me to get it out of the way.

Ahem....

That's what she said!

 

Funny thing about this is, I had a huge debate with the pro football focus stat monkeys about holding flags being a positive for a player, they argued the reason why the other player held was unknown.

I cursed them for cowards and re-read "moneyball"..you can't argue with the stat monkeys..that is like trying to steal their bananas.

 

Stud..since he came in the league, when he was grossly underused in his first year, his ratio of pressures, sacks, holds relative to snap count is better than any other player in the game.

 

I'm with you pad. Those stat monkeys credit sacks when someone comes through the line unblocked. That clearly is a breakdown on the offense but still counts for the defender...

 

Well, they do have a point. If the O-Lineman trips over his own feet, and decides to grab the DE's legs as he's running by, not much the DE did to force that hold. So it should be taken somewhat with a grain of salt. However, in Wake's case, he's just so ****ing fast around the edge that they have no choice but to grab most of the time. The only way to know for sure would be to watch every play where holding occurred.

 

I'd also like to see the stats on the OTs in the AFCE. If these 6 guys are also some of the most flagged tackles, then it would stand to reason that Wake would get a lot of holding calls. Obviously wouldn't be definitive either way but playing each of these guys twice could really help the hold numbers if in fact they hold everybody

 

Problem being, PFF does CLAIM to watch every play.

 

They do. But not every person at PFF watches every play. That's physically impossible.

 

Even then, it could still be subjective to a degree. I do agree that it does have some merit though. It's akin to the winner/unforced error in Tennis. Sure, you may have hit a shot back into the net, but it may have been the nice shot down the line I hit to force you into that bad shot. Same with shooting % in basketball, or TO's forced. There are plenty of examples in sports.

 

Pay the man his money!

 

That's awesome. I didn't know you knew so much about tennis. Maybe you can help me then...I have to buy throw pillows and I need to know which ones go with my couch.

 

Don't get your hopes up, I'm also well versed in Curling. (Make sure the print of the pillow accentuates the ambiance of the room it's in)

 

Hell, Nate Solder made a name for himself in the opener last year off his great holding performance of Wake. The announcers were amazed at how Solder shut down Wake for most of the game and declared him a stud at the tackle position. Amazing how that happened when you get away with holds the entire game.

 

More than all the other catastrophes in that game....THIS had me raging out when I watched that game. So many blatant holds.

 

Many times, yes they should. I think that's the caveat with PFF. I would trust them when it comes to play counts, but their ratings are still subjective evaluations.

 

Intimidation can cause mind fu&$

 

Soldier got away with rape. Something to do with the particular QB he protects it seems like they would even make new rules just to benifit him.

 

I can believe that. No doubt. I would also not be surprised if he still had people hanging off of him on his way to the car after the game.

 

Having a flag thrown for holding the most is not necessarily the same thing as actually being held the most. It could be that another player had more of his holds missed by the refs. Or it could be that Wake sells it the best relative to other pass rushers. And given his ability to get really low to the ground when going around a tackle and his pure speed I think he gives refs an easier visual cue that he is being held.

And 10 yards is nothing to scoff at. I'm not sure what the exact %s are. But even if the penalty occurs on first down I would bet that decreases the odds of the offense scoring by quite a bit. So this is just another reason why we really need to resign Wake. Though given his age I wouldn't want to give him a lot of years. Maybe we can overpay a bit for the first few years if he won't budge on the length.

 

My impression throughout the season was that Wake deserved far more holding calls than he got.

 

It's a hidden stat that I at least take into consideration when talking about Wakes place and status.

 

I don't understand why some people get so worked up everytime someone comes out with a "new" stat, or with any of the non-basic traditional stats, trying to argue that it means nothing because of the myriad of other factors that could have caused whatever the stat is tracking. Every stat has those same issues. Some rushing yards result from a RB running through a giant gaping hole that my 73 yr old Dad could run through. Interceptions are credited to defenders and charged against QBs even if they result from perfectly thrown passes that bounced off the receiver's hands into the hands of the defender. Etc. No stat is definitive as to who is the best at any particular position, but they can tell us a lot about what happened on the field. You just need to understand the stat to understand what conclusions to draw from that. If someone jumps to the conclusion that one RB is better than other simply because he had more rushing yards then the other then that person knows/understands very little about football.

IMO, Wake getting held more than any other player further supports the idea that he is a very good player. I would bet that the list of most held pass rushers probably looks a lot like the list of pass rushers with the most sacks/pressures. Some of those holds on Wake may have been unforced errors on the OL, but there is little reason to believe that OLs blocking Wake have a much higher incidence of unforced error holds than do OLs blocking other pass rushers. PFF had Wake as their No. 1 rated 3-4 OLB by a fairly wide margin. I am sure that all of those times that he had beaten his man and was held (whether such holding was called or not) played a significant role in Wake's No. 1 rating.

As for PFF, I love the site, both for its stats and for its player ratings. For the player ratings, like the stats, you need to understand what they are grading. They are not grading technique, potential or aesthetics. They are grading the result of that individual player's battle/task. IMO, that provides the most useful information. I believe they do watch and grade every play by every player and I am not aware of anyone else who does that, or even comes close. So I find it absurd to see people who haven't watched every play of a particular player (or group of players being compared) disagreeing with their ratings. Their ratings don't purport to show who was the better player or who will be the better player in the future -- just who was more effective in carrying out their tasks during a particular period of time. So it is fine to say that Brandon Marshall is a better WR than Doug Baldwin despite PFF giving Baldwin a higher rating (and that would probably be true in the abstract), but one can't say that Marshall was more often effective at what he was being asked to do than Baldwin was if you haven't watched all of those players' plays.

 

When we draft coples, Wake won't be held as much

 

Iam on The record for saying its now the one source I trust and look to when I'am talking about player production and projection..I think it's outstanding and more accurate than any source out there..

My eyes tell me that Cam Wake is an elite outside linebacker, Pff confirms it.

 

IMO the cumulative manner that PFF uses is basically useless when it comes to comparing players. And I simply find I don't agree with their subjective ratings. I have taken players and watched every play of a game and then gone to their site and looked at their rating. I don't know how they make some of their evaluations. I just know that I didn't agree with what they concluded. Also an agent I knew even talked to a player a few years back when PFF was still free. They were discussing the rating the player had received from the team and the team's grade was night and day compared to what PFF had for that game. I just don't trust that they can tell when a player succeeded or not on a play.

 

Tom Brady getting the benefit of the refs? I'll have you know that Tom Brady does not get speci-- I'm sorry, I can't even type this with straight face!

 

They caculate the result of the play right Rafs, not what goes on in it?, you dont find it useful with your own eval's??

 

Which according to PFF they do; watch every play. If that were so, then you'd be able to make a determination as to what happened. Isn't that what they claim to do anyways? Make a determination of what they saw, and compare it to what should be happening. Last time I checked there was no play that called for holding in order for it to be executed, as such that should stand out, as should the follow up to any event outside of what is expected - why.

Why do I get the feeling this is like dealing with a corporation that refuses to admit there is something wrong with the way they operate?

 

They try and figure out if a player did the right thing on a play. I don't think they do that well.

 

Regardless of anything, they track the results of plays. Of the length of a season a player would have to be extremely unlucky or lucky depending on scenario to be able to completely defy results.

For instance if a guy grades out #1 against the run as a starter over a full season of play at linebacker. Could one or two of those games be misleading? Of course, but to maintain results without a solid level of consistency on the field during plays is near impossible over 16 games. That is the value of PFF.

 

Not really. Sometimes a player's role in a defense is to occupy a gap. He could fill his role perfectly in accordance to what the coaches want and yet an unskilled evaluator could grade him poorly all season.