Well, this is good news for those who want Orton or Palmer or Bulger, the Cardinals were seen as the plum landing spot for a Qb looking for a new team if they have locked in on Kolb that leaves Seattle and Miami as the last two good landing spots for a Qb on the trade market.
A #1 pick and a Defensive Starter, is that what we would have pay in trade for say Kyle Orton?
YMMV
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It's also good news for anyone who didn't want Kolb (anyone but Cardinal's fans of course).
GreysonWinfield, jetssuck, Ophinerated and 9 others like this. -
Good point, for me I suspect to land Orton would take maybe #3 and a dlinemen, say Starks or Langford.
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I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't give up more than a 4th for Orton.dolfndav34, jetssuck, Ophinerated and 9 others like this.
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Agreed dont want to give up ANY defensive line starters or depth for Ortin....The Broncos dont want him, so take the 4th and be happy about it....
Also Kolb is going to net Philly a king's ransom back, some teams is definately going Oakland Raiders on this one....good luck, I would rather have Henne...Kolb has more or less equal numbers with superior offensive talent around him the past few years... -
It's hard to see Kevin Kolb succeeding based on what he showed when he played in Philadelphia.
SCall13, gafinfan, finyank13 and 1 other person like this. -
I would pay whatever price they ask, you cannot buy Gucci's in the bargain bin Rafi, if he is the guy then get it done..no excuses, no half assed effort.
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You're assuming he's a Gucci. I'd equate him to a overpriced purse at Macy's.
(pathetic, I know, but I have to buy mywife a purse every Xmas)dolfan32323, dolfndav34, jetssuck and 5 others like this. -
I'd give up a 3. He is a good QB. I agree with not mortgaging our future to get him, as I don't think he's a permanent solution. But a 3rd would be a bargain for Orton, IMHO.
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Let me ask you a simple question:
Would you prefer we rely on Ireland's ability to evaluate quarterbacks in the draft, or take the proven veteran who is under 30 yrs old? -
If I thought Orton was a long-term answer, and not a fill-in-the-gap until we find our true QB, then I'd agree with you.
So, even if you bring him in, you're still relying on Ireland to find the QB prospect for the long term.
There's a reason he keeps changing teams: he's good enough to people excited, but then each franchise comes to the same conclusion: Orton is good, but will never be really good. I can't imagine Elway letting Orton go if he thought Orton could be a permanent starter, especially when the QB prospect is still so young. You only overpay when you feel like this guy can be our starter for 10 years to come or he's the final piece of the puzzle. Neither case is true here. -
Disagree OF, here is why:
-in Chicago, they let him go to land Jay Cutler
-in Denver, McDaniels drafted Tebow
In chicago they mortgaged everything to land Cutler after Orton had 1 good season there, Denver clearly liked him but Elway became CEO and now has a choice to make, keep Orton at 8.8 million, and maybe lose him at the end of the yr, or play Tebow and save the 8.8 million and land value in return for Orton.
If Tebow stinks, they land Luck, who is from Elways' alma mater, and they have value in return for Orton and save the 8.8 millie, in other words Orton is more in the wrong place at the wrong time rather then a poor Qb. -
I don't agree he's a Gucci. I see him as likely to be no better than Henne here next year. He had a great OC last year and was about as good as I think Henne can be. He's competition and insurance, nothing more. If I'm looking for my Gucci, then I'm going to get a guy that has very little chance of being a counterfeit. I'd rather through a whole draft at a QB I believe has a strong chance to be a franchise guy than through middling draft picks at a guy that other team's are looking to upgrade from.MrClean, sports24/7 and Ohio Fanatic like this.
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I base my view on fact Rafi, not opinion with Orton, 3 yrs of clear, upward, improvement in his game, and not just in Denver, the differences between his 2005 season and his 08 season are clear as a rung bell, when he went to Denver he stayed on the same path of improvement.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OrtoKy00.htm
For all of the "it was Mcdaniels offense" he threw a grand total of 3 more Td's in Denver then in Chicago, he has had almost a 2 to 1 Td to int ratio for the last 3 seasons, his completion percentage is consistently 58%, and has stayed there for the last 3 seasons seems pretty clear to me. -
Not a fact. I can look at the numbers and just as easily not see a 3 year upward trend during his tenure in Denver. His TD percentage was the same all 3 years, and his interceptions were 12-12-9. that's within error bars IMO. The difference between Orton and Henne is significant, but it's not huge enough to throw a 2nd round pick for him. ANd listening to NFLN (or was it ESPN) yesterday while remodeling my bathroom, the analyst mentioned that Orton would not be had for something as low as a 4th rounder, more likely holding out for a 2nd rounder.
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Then cough up the #2 pick, just get the deal done as you point out, you can see the consistency and that is across two wildly different offenses, and the difference is huge, one is full of doubt, the other has no doubt attached, you know exactly what you are getting and you know they will be better then what you already have on the roster.
That is why the "do not trade a #1, or a #2 pick!!!!" makes no sense to me, trade the pick and you have a Qb for the next 4 yrs at least, maybe 6 yrs, you will not find such a guarantee in a mere draft choice as 1/3rd of the 09 2nd rd picks have already either busted out, or been disappointments, why value the pick that highly?
Add in he already has chemistry with Marshall. -
I'd give up a fourth and Merling for Orton.
As for Kolb I'm staying as far away as possibel. -
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Yeah, so far Ireland hasn't exactly shown himself to be a QB finder. Traded picks for Thigpen, drafted a bust in White, and the massively underperforming Henne. I may have missed some others on that list.
Penny doesn't count, that was a no-brainer, and he dropped into their laps. -
Nah, Deberg never could really play well, Orton could easily be Rich Gannon or Trent Green.
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Really? I do not think Orton could become Rich Gannon or Trent Green. He seems like the perfect DeBerg. Good enough to kind of start.MrClean and texanphinatic like this.
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I think you guys are really under estimating Kolb. He looked very sharp in most of his outings. I could see him being successful almost anywhere once he is given a chance.
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dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Pads , pads , pads ... Starks or Langford and a 3rd? No thank you .
And again , not sure why Palmer's name is being mentioned , that is so unlikely to happen . -
Deberg would usually throw as many int's as Td's w/54% completions, sort of like Gus Frerotte.
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Agreed, that would be the worst trade ever
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In 3/10ths of a second, so fast Elway would realize the mistake he has made.."hmm, they agreed really quickly, maybe I asked for to little?"
29 yr old ascending Qb's with 60 starts just do not hit the market in the NFL, as in "once every 6 yrs or so" sort of thing.
Opportunity knocks once, then misfortune knocks the second time, even then our Franchise has had it's collective head up it's anus so deeply, we passed on Drew Brees..twice, let's not make the same mistake again by thinking a draft pick "costs to much" or even a pick and a starter.
We have Odie and Merling behind Langford, we will be fine. -
dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Slightly off topic , but since you brought it up , I actually just bought mrsdolfan ( who LOVES hot shoes ) a pair of gucci heels last Saturday coming home from bringing her to the airport.... and I paid less than what you would pay for some ugiliy shoes at walmart. Yes it was second hand store , but you can find bargains , you have to be a great shopper usually, and I am , let's hope Irish is too... I can give tutorials if he needs it ! -
Waay OT, WPG peddlng Jyles will come back to haunt them.
As for Orton, look at it this way:
Qb..check
Rb..check (granted depends on Thomas)
LT..check
Wr..check
Passrushing De..check
shut down Cb..check
Parcells "positions you have to have" would finally be completed, that is one of the reasons why I'm adamant, pay the price for certainty instead of the uncertainty Dolfans have had since #13 hung'm up. -
dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member
I have zero issue trading from our DLINE , none what so ever.
I have emphatically called for that , I for one would keep MCD and deal from strength . However I don't agree that Orton would represent fair value in return for an above average starter plus a 3rd round pick. I just don't see Orton being as good as you do . Michael Lombardi also agrees with me , of course we certainly both could be wrong.
It hasn't worked before for us , but I am not inherently opposed to using a draft pick in a trade for a QB , it just has to be the right QB and the right price.
Using assets like that , if it is indeed the wrong QB , it just sets us back once again , and delays the addressing of the need at QB yet again. I want it fixed/repaierd/solved , rather wait and make the right move than make the wrong one and be no further ahead. -
dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member
I liked Jyles , rumour is something happened , but there are factors , you NEED Canadian talent in this league to win and WPG has fallen behind there , he had a large salary , we'll see if our QB can actually stay healthy ( not likely ).
QB ?
RB ?
Shut down CB ?
The question marks are just as easy and appropriate as the check marks imo.
Not a fan of Orton , unless we get him at a good price , not looking to happen that way . I hope Danny Thomas is a top tier RB , big question mark for me right now.
Vonte has shown flashes , however you need consistency to be called or actually be a shut down corner. That may happen , but hasn't as of yet.
IMO . -
Lombardi can think whatever he wants to think he is a shill for the Tuna anyway, and keep in mind Langford is a FA after 2011 anyway, and they did not draft Odrick for no apparent reason, he needs run time.
When Greg Cossel's verdict is "Henne sucked in 2010" we are honestly supposed to troop on into 2011 less we surrender a draft choice and soon to be FA Dlinemen?
That makes no sense, risk a whole season on Chad Henne developing? Why?
Perfect is the enemy of the good, and we have had far more bust #2 draft pick Qb then we have traded #2's for bust Qb's, Qb's rarely hit the market and when they do you pay up, if not we will be *****ing about Chad Henne..again..and pinning for a Qb in the draft..again..and then hearing "it takes 3yrs to develop a Qb before you can say good or ill"..again.
Have to have skin in the game to get what you need, there is no way around it, good Qb's cost, pay it and be done.
To put Orton into context, we have had 1 Qb throw for 20 td's in a decade, think about it, 160 games, 1 Qb who even played as well as Orton did for a terrible Denver team so if he costs a #1 or a #2, fine with me. -
For the same reason you buy insurance, you want to reduce your risk to as close to -0- as possible.
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Is that the new term for taking the brown to the superbowl? :lol:
I agree, I think his numbers are deceivingly good enough to warrant a higher draft pick. Might not be worth it. Teams always overpay for QBs because, well, its the most important position on the field.texanphinatic and padre31 like this. -
Kolb sucks under pressure, we've already got a guy who can make throws with no pressure.
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Something, you just do not want to ask about like "so how did that vasectomy go"?
Then maybe you can help me out here, how can "always overpay" and "most important position on the field" co-exist?
In what way are they overpaid for? In terms of draft choices? Cash?
Just glance at the draft class in a given 5 yrs, say in 2006, and count the #1 picks who busted, and compare that to the "cost" of trade for Orton and how the conclusion "we have to hold onto draft picks over trading for a starting Qb!!" line of thinking just escapes me. -
Padre, if you're right, and he's our starter for 6 years, then he is worth a 2nd rounder.
But if it follows the same pattern, he's only above average, and we end up drafting his successor in 1 or 2 years, then you've wasted a valuable draft pick.
If we had a 2nd round pick this year, we could have drafted one of the many young QB prospects we were all excited about.
Orton could turn out to be the next Drew Brees, but IMO, he will just be Kyle Orton for his whole career. average-to-above-average QB.
If he comes cheaper, I'd love to bring him in to compete with Henne. But if we're going to spend a 2nd rounder, I'd rather offer it up to Cincy for Carson Palmer. -
dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member
1) Lombardi does think what HE thinks , despite connections , his evaluation of Orton isn't biased by any relationship to fat Billy , or anyone else. He broke down his game , from coaches tape and made a decision that an NFL executive would . He may be wrong , but he didn't conclude this without doing his homework.
2) Langford being a FA should not have any bearing , he is an asset , getting less than fair value isn't how good teams build.
3) Henne sucked , so did the team and COACHES , thinking all that will change by adding a QB that isn't actually all that good is wrong imo. Risking a whole season on Henne developing , well this regime has to answer for their decisions , they didn't draft a QB , so unless they mave a bold move , they obviously feel addressing the QB situation this year wasn't an overly important one . Surely they didn't bank on trading for Orton as their only option , and at any price ... a first? really???
4) You keep insinuating that Orton is at a level that I don't see him at , you may indeed be right , it is a reach at this point that he is , as I see it. Therefore I would not be "all in " for Orton , as you appear to be. For me , I MUCH rather would sign VY with no acquisition fee than trade Starks or Langford and a 3rd round choice or give up a #2 or ...shudder .... a #1 . Overpaying for an answer that doesn't answer the need doesn't make it right , despite the need at QB. -
There was no Qb drafted in rd #2 this yr, and once again, the whole "it takes 3yrs" stuff, and "above average starter" would mean "superstar" in Miami as our Qb play has been simply that bad for the last 7 seasons, seriously.
Even "if" Orton's development stalls and he is what he is, even though I doubt that happens, he is head and shoulders better then any Qb we have had since Fiedlers' magical 2001 (or 02) or Penny in 08, granted ideally you draft to exceed what has happened in the past to be bound to it, however Orton clearly offers "instant upgrade for yrs" status which is why I'd pay whatever the Broncos asked for him.
Orton also has to many advantages to list over Carson Palmer, at least 5 major ones. -
I think the point people are saying is that we don't think Orton is the future. I know I don't. He's a serviceable NFL QB, but I don't think he's anything special...and ive seen him play a ton. He's from my home city, I watch a ton of bears games up here in IA and neck beard has never impressed me. He's OK, will have great games followed by horribly average ones. He's not bad IMO, but I don't think he's the answer. I would trade anything more than a 4th for him. Is be ok if we sent a 3rd.....as in I'd live with it. But is be livid if we gave up a 3rd +. he's in Fiedler territory. Average athleticism, above average reading ability, but nothing special.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkdolfan22 likes this.
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