i think if you click edit post on your first post and go into advanced options it lets you change it as for the thread, i saw stewart/colbert (i honestly forget which one) mention this tonight... pretty awesome if you ask me. i think they should provide the ape with comical things to huck at the guests.
On a serious note, the ramifications from this discovery are astounding. This adds further evidence to proving the theory of evolution, for one. Posing new ethical quandaries in reference to testing on Primates, or animals in general. It also adds a completely different dimension to animal biology/zoology already and even further if it can be found that other animals are capable of processing conscious, deliberate, premeditated thought. Also, this makes monkey butlers a real possibility now. Seriously, why is no one interested in this?
The Chimpanzee, although very intelligent, can only develop a mental capacity equal to that of a 5 Year Old child.
I've always felt this was a deceiving statement. Think about it for a second, what can't a 5 year old learn?
If you don't already, I highly, highly recommend watching Orangutan Island. There is no greater evidence of evolution that you can see with your own two eyes while its happening. I haven't commented on this much, because I've become the site's unofficial animal person, but this "discovery" is really nothing new. I'm glad its been a huge news story, but how is this really different than a squirrel collecting food for the winter? That's just a squirrel. We are going to find that our concepts of what defines intelligence are going to change in the near future.
Oh, Im not saying 5 year olds aren't, or can't be very smart. But they are clearly limited in mental capacity. Their brain(s) have only begun to develop.
This is why i said its misleading. I believe you could teach a five year old any ONE or COUPLE of things. Can they know as many things as an adult? No. But they can know one thing as good as any adult?
how long before the monkey carves a knife and grabs a baby to hold hostage? then he escapes and shows all the other monkies how to make weapons. Then we are gonna have to fight Gorillas, Chimps, and Monkeys on a daily basis as they take over the world.
i hardly think this proves premeditated thought, as pre-meditated would mean (at least to me) that the chimp is realizing something unexpected is going to happen and he's preparing for it. from the sounds of it, the chimp gets harassed each and every day, and from an evolutionary standpoint, if this harassment is affecting him eating, sleeping or doing anything else that he feels hurts his chances for survival/attracting a mate, he's going to learn a trait to help prevent it. in this case, he has learned that flinging rocks at people will make them go away, so it is logical that he would gather rocks to use later in the day. i'm not trying to down the observational study, because I do believe chimps are highly intelligent, but I think all this specific experiment proves is that chimps operate at a higher level of intelligence, which we already knew. i was going to make the squirrel argument earlier in this thread, but on further thought I don't quite think its the same. i understand the basis behind it, but the gathering of nuts isn't necessarily a 'learned' trait. the squirrels are wired to do it, though I'm sure they are 'taught' how to do it by their parents when they are young. regardless, since that is something every squirrel does, I see it as a bit different.
Premeditated in no way has anything to do with "unexpected". –adjective done deliberately; planned in advance: a premeditated murder. –verb (used with object), -tat⋅ed, -tat⋅ing. to meditate, consider, or plan beforehand: to premeditate a murder. v. tr. To plan, arrange, or plot (a crime, for example) in advance. v. intr. To reflect, ponder, or deliberate beforehand. adj. Characterized by deliberate purpose, previous consideration, and some degree of planning: a premeditated crime. adjective characterized by deliberate purpose and some degree of planning; "a premeditated crime" [ant: unpremeditated] One of man's traditional prerequisites for higher intelligence, is the capacity for premeditation. Not every squirrel does do it though. Some squirrels that have a steady supply of food, do not horde. I've seen it with my own eyes, in many of the countless squirrels I've rescued. Regardless, it is formulating and carrying out a plan. Also consider that squirrels will find alternate places to store food, besides where they live. Some dogs bury bones, some don't. Elephants will incorporate places where other elephants died into their yearly rounds. A cow at the farm i work at, will wait for a person to be alone driving the Mule (Kawasaki kind) through the gate, to try and make a break for it. I encourage you to read up on Alex the African Grey Parrot, if you haven't already. The point is, man's qualifications for intelligence will evolve. Truth be told, we so little about our own, I'm not sure we're even qualified to make decisions of any other's intelligence level.
I realize that unexpected doesn't exactly mean premeditated, but all I'm trying to say I suppose is that many animals do many things that could be considered "premeditated", if the only criteria is that they do something to prepare for an event that happens later. Building shelters, storing food, spinning webs, Killing babies to influence mates, etc. You're right in that it is impossible to fully determine the level of conscious thought of other species, but it's something that we are always going to attempt. I think it is very possible, and indeed probable, that many animals are capable of premeditated thought. What this means as far as 'intelligence' though, is impossible to say confidently
Exactly. Most creatures plan ahead, which either means most creatures are intelligent or we have to start rethinking what actual intelligence is based on. The real problem, is all we really do is compare intelligence to our own, whether it be on a macro scale or even a micro one (Jack is so stupid, he can't spell, even though Jack is a math genius.) I think a time will come when we recognize different types of intelligence, and realize our own intelligence is nothing more than an ability not unlike a bird's ability to fly. (After all, I'm sure the frog would say, Human's are stupid, they can't live in water and land, even though they can do math.)
OK...(take this with a grain of salt guys ) So we have a chimp showing some skills which further proves evolution... I guess the fact that one of my African Grey's can speak better than the other means that proves it too and that soon the will start talking like us, plot and then they'll develop legs and leathery/scaly skin and become Ghidorah's! Nevermind how this just 'happens'. Just know it does and its complicated as hell! Yet, it just 'happens'...or call it survival of the fittest...sounds better! We are still awaiting men who live in arctic conditions to develop fur like bears but its all good! That's what the MAN-BEAR-PIG is! Never seen one? Dont worry, you won't, as it happens over a gazillion years and while we are at it, add on a few more million since what the hell it sounds cooler the older you make it sound! I am sure someone will come up with a likewise sarcastic post in response...to that I say in advance touche!
