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Coach Zorn and religion in the locker room.

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by Finfangirl, Oct 20, 2015.

  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    WADR, you start by saying you disagree but your last line is actually what I'm saying. They have faith that the written accounts happened. Faith is not fact. They believe it because that stuff hasn't been proven. If it was proven, no one would have faith in it anymore because it would be fact.

    Once a faith has proven to be true, it is no longer a faith, it is now a fact. You don't have faith in facts, you know them to be true.

    Say we win the Super Bowl this year. Up until we actually win, we have faith we'll win but its not a fact we will win. If we did win, then no one has faith we'll win SB 2015 any longer, because we actually won it.
     
  2. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    We are all so grounded in the scientific method of examination>hypothesis>test>conclusion>back to observation and so on, whether we are scientists or not that it is very difficult to get our heads around a way of thought that does not operate under that model. My example is usually, do you believe someone loved you? prove it! (If you saw CONTACT that is what the Matthew MacConaghey (sic) character does to the Jodie Foster character.)

    I am a person of faith. It is uncomfortable for folks to describe me as delusional because of it, yet it happens.
     
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  3. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 Write Travis Write Club Member

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    Funny timing on this. I had a thought today about a tattoo I'm considering getting.

    It's my favorite band's logo (the one in my avatar) with a lyric over the top of it. Now the lyric has multiple different meanings, but I'll tell you what it means to me.

    The lyric is: "GOD IS NOT AT HOME."

    I don't believe in god, but it's not supposed to be an anti-religion tattoo. For me, it means that I don't need the power of a higher being to rely upon, to make me do right in my life, or to lean up for help. It's only me in this life and everything that happens to me or that I do for myself is my own accountability and my own doing. It's a reminder to me that there's rhyme or reason for anything and that life just kind of happens.


    But everyone I've told about this tattoo tells me not to get it because of how other's would view it. Why are they allowed to display their love for their beliefs but I can't express mine on MY OWN body?


    This stuff drives me absolutely crazy.
     
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  4. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    North Dallas Forty was a great movie too.
    Nick Nolte as Phil Elliott
    Mac Davis as Seth Maxwell
    John Matuszak
    Bo Svenson
    G.D. Spradlin

    Matuszak's rant toward the end was awesome.

    [video=youtube;I6mpHW3SMcc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6mpHW3SMcc[/video]
     
  5. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I am no fan of tattoo's for a whole laundry list of reasons but if you want one that should be your choice. I should make you aware however that the interlocking rings overlaid on an equilateral triangle is an ancient Christian symbol for the Holy Trinity. You may be an atheist but you would be displaying one of the most precious of Christian symbolism. Thought you ought to know.

    (Why do I feel like Dr. Robert Langdon at the beginning of Angels and Demons?)
     
  6. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Religion poisons everything. If someone wants to believe in a higher power, then have at it, but it does not require adhering to some ancient bronze age texts written by people so ignorant they didn't even know where the sun went at night.
     
  7. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    MC, I respect your right to an opinion but why would you choose to insult my sacred texts? Are you suggesting that by adhering to them I am either delusional or moronic? What about my practice so offends you that you would make this attack?
     
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  8. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel." - Thomas Paine, Age of Reason
     
  9. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Can I just take a moment to thank you for being open and understanding of all of our beliefs. You have always listened with an open mind and an open heart and that is very much appreciated.
     
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  10. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I am expressing my opinion. No one is required to agree with me.
     
  11. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I can appreciate that explanation OP. Faith, or rather true faith is among the strongest things humans can have. For example Stonewall Jackson had such a profound faith in God , he had no fear when he went into battle, hence his nickname. He believed so fully that the Lord would take him when he so chose, therefor if it was not his time, he had nothing to fear of being killed in battle.

    While I myself am not quite certain of my beliefs, I can respect that degree of faith.

    I do wonder why, and this may seem ridiculous, but why is believing in the Super Natural or UFOs looked down upon by many when the reality is, we have more evidence of some kind that they exist, then we have of a higher power such as God.
     
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  12. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    If you want the tattoo get it. You may want to put it somewhere that can easily be covered for work though. Some future employers may discriminate against you because it.
     
  13. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Back on the subject of football, because I believe football is grounded in emotion ... a good coach would make available various ways to practice the players faith. Its part of getting to know each and every player. While Im not a Christian I still find peace listening to a sermon where I can identify with the lesson. I was moved to tears when the Pope visited, because I was awestruck by the sheer gentleness of this man. He spoke from a heart that anyone could listen to. It inspired me...so I would imagine faith in the locker room would inspire many players of various faiths.
     
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  14. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Intolerance and absolutism are opposite sides of the same coin. I am a skeptic regarding both the Super Natural and UFO's but frankly, I have seen too much that is difficult to explain and thus I am reluctant to blow off anyone else. I may argue against a particular idea or proposition but hey, I could be wrong.
     
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  15. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    In the new weekly chatter thread FFG makes a great point about Coach Campbell working hard to relate to all his team and each member of his team at the same time. I think she is on to something. Your point fits in, imo. A coach could/should work with each player to find ways to maximize their performance on the field and their growth off the field (which ought to contribute to the former)
     
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  16. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The irony of this is that Zorn's tactics - in the name of Christianity - are contrary to the essence of how Christianity is supposed to operate - through weakness, gentleness, humility and free choice - not through power tactics which were Zorn's. In essence, Zorn is acting there counter to the very views his propagating. A complete failure.
     
  17. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's unfortunate that Paine took the information within those ancient texts out of their historical and cultural contexts in a way that would make anyone here - including yourself - incensed if someone did the same with words on here. Just sayin'. :)
     
  18. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    This just in, Jim Zorn was a bad football coach.
     
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  19. DPlus47

    DPlus47 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well said.

    In addition, if you're using your religion to divide, you might not want to bring it to your job where your success depends on bringing a group of people together.
     
  20. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Jackson did not get the nickname because of his religious beliefs. He got at the First Bull Run. As the Confederate lines began to crumble under heavy Union assault, Jackson's brigade provided crucial reinforcements on Henry House Hill, demonstrating the discipline he instilled in his men. Brig. Gen. Barnard Elliott Bee, Jr. exhorted his own troops to re-form by shouting, "There is Jackson standing like a stone wall. Let us determine to die here, and we will conquer. Rally behind the Virginians!"

    Jackson was the best general and strategist the South had. Lee knew it too. After Jackson's death, Lee never won another major battle.

    I see more reason, a lot more reason, to believe in the supernatural and/or UFOs/aliens than I do in a sky daddy.
     
  21. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    So many so called Christians IMO are guilty of this. They pervert the entire faith and help drive people away. There appear to me to be two different kinds of Jesus. You have the biblical Jesus as described in the four gospels, then you have Republican Jesus, formed from a distorted view of what Christ stood for, and used to further their own aims and preconceived prejudices.
     
  22. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Paine worded things more strongly, but Jefferson held many of the same beliefs himself. Also John Adams and Madison.
     
  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Obviously, you understand that people pervert EVERY faith and religion. That's why I don't understand why you came into this thread kicking down the door and blasting a faith in total, instead of the specific chuckleheads like Zorn.

    The Christian faith has objectionable parts in it, but mostly those aren't what is preached. I think most people of that faith know those parts are objectionable and tend to ignore them. The problem comes in when specific people pervert that religion to suit their own agendas whether those be monetary/hate/fear/etc.

    Ohio is a great guy. He goes out of his way to not offend people when talking about faith and the faithless. He's open to honest respectful dialogue. He's not alone. That's why I'm forever trying to get the other side to not choose the nuclear option by blasting these people's faith(s). I mean its one thing when in a respectful manner you bring up something like homosexuality being an abomination but then so is a woman wearing a man's shirt and how that doesn't make sense. But its another thing entirely to just start blasting the religion.

    Part of your anger, my anger and many people of no faith's anger is the militant gusto with which we've been judged or had beliefs shoved down our throat by the religious. We're not gonna change that by being as equally militant in shoving our beliefs/opinions down their throat. When you have someone like Ohio who is willing to have the kind of discussion we all want, then why start it off rude or angry....how is that going to change their approach to us? Be more Martin Luther King and less Martin Luther.

    That's why I always say go after the person whose behavior is horrible but respect the faith.
     
  24. The Rev

    The Rev Totus Tuus Administrator Luxury Box Club Member

    I know I'm late to the party (as always) but I am reminded of an old saying attributed to St. Francis of Assisi:

    "Preach the Gospel at all times, use words only when necessary."

    In other words, let the way you live your life lead others to God, not so much your words. People like Zorn do more to divide us then to highlight what we have in common.

    IMO
     
  25. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I have always objected to those who claim exclusive, absolute moral superiority because they are members of one church group or another.
    They do a hard sell of the idea that I can be morally superior, too, if only I accept an indivisible package of dogmas, some of which I disagree with.
    I just don't see how that constitutes morality, let alone superior morality.
    By the same token, I have to admire their good works.
    So the solution I have come up with is to support and give credit to the good works while ignoring the parts of the package I disagree with.
    Cafeteria approach, I guess.
     
  26. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 Rosen's Roughnecks Club Member

    What Zorn is apparently doing doesn't seem very christian (not that I'm one either...just saying).
     
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  27. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    As a Christian, I would say you are correct. If what we read is accurate, then he is wrong both professionally and from the perspective of the faith he is trying to promote/live.
     
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  28. Mcduffie81

    Mcduffie81 Wildcat Club Member

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    Religion doesn't "poison" everything, people do. Greedy, self serving people. It's hard to read some of this honestly.
     
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  29. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    If all Christians were the same as Ohiophinphan, and people like Jimmy Carter, the religion as a whole would be infinitely better, it would not drive people away, turn them sour toward it, etc. The bad apples, of which there are many, give the entire religion a black eye, IMO. That may not be fair, but I think it effects many people's attitudes toward it.
     
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  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Exactly, which is why it makes sense to blast those people and not Christianity, which was my point.
     
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  31. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Exactly...there he stood like a Stone Wall..why do you think he was able to he so stoic in battle?

    His profound belief in the Lord.

    "My religious beliefs teach me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time of my death. I do not concern myself with that, but to be always ready whenever it may overtake me. That is the way all men should live, and all men would be equally brave."
     
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  32. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It is not the fault of religious people that some people pervert religion.
     
  33. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    When Gen, Bee uttered his famous quote, he was not thinking of Jackson's religion. At least there is no indication he was.
     
  34. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Nooo....ok..get what you are saying now. The nickname was because he showed such a lack of fear while in battle...he was as solid as a stonewall. You are correct. My point was it was his faith that gave him the strength to be that brave.
     
  35. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Question. Not a trick question. Just curious.
    Do you mean that the General had such strong faith in the promise of eternal life that the possibility of the end of his life in this world was not as big a deal to him as it would have been to a person with less faith?
     
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  36. The Rev

    The Rev Totus Tuus Administrator Luxury Box Club Member

    To me it means that he knows where genus going after he dies, so he has that confidence of eternity with God. I think he meant it to increase the faith in others not as a criticism.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  37. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    IMO religion itself is the problem. Whenever you have a group of people who believe, "if you think my way you go to heaven, but if you don't you go to hell", the people don't have to pervert anything. The discrimination and superiority is built in. The person who can be kind and nonjudgmental is overcoming that thinking. They're behaving that way in spite of religion rather than b/c of it.
     
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  38. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I think Raul is correct. Biographers of Jackson indicate he was a very, very complicated figure. From Wikipedia

    There is another piece which should be mentioned here. Jackson was a devout Presbyterian. Within their theology, especially prior to the middle of this century, there was a strong streak of determinism. The absolute belief that "when your time is up, your time is up." It could reach near mystic levels and Jackson seems to have had a very strong sense of this.

    Determinism is that belief that since God exists outside of time, everything we do or is done to us has already happened and thus is out of our hands. While that piece still is a cog in some Reformed, Protestant traditions it is not a major factor today.

    Again from Wikipedia

    I mention that because it is ironic given the post which started this thread. We object to Zorn choosing football players by their faith yet the South has nearly deified Jackson who wanted to the same thing with a whole army!
     
  39. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But Jesus did not say or teach that. He taught the opposite: kind and nonjudgmental, as you said. People with built in discrimination and superiority pervert the teachings they profess to follow.
     
  40. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree that Jesus was most likely an incredibly tolerant and nonjudgmental person, but that's not the religion that sprung up in his name.
     
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