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Comparing the Dolphins Starting WRs to the League's Best

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fineas, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    On a team perceived to have many glaring weaknesses, the general consensus was that the Dolphins’ WRs, specifically its starting receivers, were its greatest weakness. It was not uncommon to hear people claim it was the worst set of WRs in the NFL. There was widespread incredulity at the Dolphins’ trading of Brandon Marshall and then even greater incredulity over the fact that the Dolphins did not chase any big name WRs in free agency and did not draft any WRs in the early rounds of the draft. Much was made of Philbin’s comment on Hard Knocks that the team had a bunch of 3s, 4s and 5s, but no 1s or 2s at WR. But according to numerous accounts, Philbin was the one that wanted Marshall traded and he made comments to the effect that its not necessary to have the proverbial No. 1 receiver. He further commented that his offense doesn’t speak in terms of a No. 1 and a No. 2. In GB, they had a bunch of productive receivers, but none who were elite talents. None who were 1st round picks and none who have extraordinary size or speed.

    It is human nature to see what you think you will see and many people have continued to complain about the Dolphin WRs. The lament is that Bess and Hartline are nice 3s and 4s but shouldn’t be starters. I expected to see Bess and Hartline do well and that is what I have seen. The counterargument has been that while their reception and yardage numbers are good, that’s only because the team has no other receiving threats. That someone is going to score 20 ppg on the Washington Wizards, but that doesn’t make him good. Putting aside the fact that the Wizards’ leading scorer is averaging just 12.8 ppg, my response was that if a guy on any team scores 20 points with high efficiency, e.g., shoots 50%+ from the field, he’s a good player regardless of the fact that he plays for the Wizards. So I decided to look at the efficiency numbers for the Dolphins’ starting WRs and how they compare to the efficiency numbers for the top receiving corps in the league. I looked at the Dolphins vs. 13 other teams’ starting WRs and chose all of the receiving corps that I think anyone might argue are among the league’s best. Among that group, are the handful of teams that have one of the ultra-elite WRs (CJohnson, AJohnson, AJGreen, Fitzgerald, BMarshall), the teams with the ultra-elite QBs (NE, GB, NO, Denver), and the teams with the great tandems (Giants, Falcons, Cowboys, Steelers).

    In terms of efficiency, I looked at %Targeted, Completion%, Yards per Attempt/Target and Yards Per Catch/Reception.


    % of Team’s Pass Attempts Thrown to Starting WRs

    Dolphins - 47.5
    Bears - 47.5
    Patriots - 46.0
    Giants - 44.4
    Cardinals - 43.7
    Broncos - 42.7
    Falcons - 42.6
    Bengals - 41.3
    Texans - 39.7
    Cowboys - 38.1
    Steelers - 35.6
    Saints - 35.4
    Lions - 34.9
    Packers - 33.7

    The Dolphins threw to its starting WRs a higher percentage of the time than any of these other teams, with the exception of the Bears, which tied them. I included this stat for two reasons. First, targets gives some indication of how often a receiver is open, albeit imprecisely. Second, it helps put the other stats into some context. In a real sense, a high target % indicates that it is predictable that the team will be throwing to the WRs, thus making it hard to be efficient when they do. According to some, the true No. 1 receiver is the guy who can still produce even when the defense knows the ball is coming to him. Philbin indicated that he likes to spread the ball around for that very reason. As indicated, Hartline and Bess have functioned in an environment in which the defenses knew, or should have known, that one of them would be getting the ball on almost 50% of the Dolphins’ pass attempts.

    So how efficient were the Dolphins’ starting receivers under those conditions?


    Completion %

    Packers - 67.4
    Bears - 66.0
    Texans - 65.8
    Broncos - 65.7
    Dolphins - 65.5
    Falcons - 65.5
    Patriots - 65.5
    Bengals - 65.1
    Cowboys - 64.0
    Saints - 63.7
    Steelers - 61.8
    Lions - 60.6
    Giants - 59.0
    Cardinals - 57.9

    Only 4 teams’ starting WRs caught a higher percentage of the passes thrown to them than the Dolphins’ tandem and the Texans and Broncos WRs caught such a negligibly higher percentage as to be of no significance. Even the Bears and Packers weren’t much higher, but as indicated below, those teams’ starting WRs did it with lower Yards Per Target and Yards Per Catch numbers.


    Yards Per Target

    Falcons - 10.3
    Broncos - 9.72
    Texans - 9.66
    Lions - 9.37
    Saints - 9.27
    Bengals - 9.13
    Dolphins - 9.06
    Cowboys - 9.03
    Packers - 8.86
    Bears - 8.04
    Patriots - 7.67
    Giants - 7.5
    Steelers - 7.45
    Cardinals - 6.66

    The Dolphins’ starting WRs as a tandem are right in the middle of the pack among the best WR tandems in the league and better than the Pats, Giants, Packers, Cowboys, etc. Considering that Bess and Hartline did that with a rookie QB throwing to them and a dearth of other options, and considering the Pats, Packers, Saints and Broncos WRs did it with established future HOF and Super Bowl winning QBs is pretty impressive IMO.


    Yards Per Catch

    Falcons - 15.7
    Lions - 15.4
    Broncos - 14.8
    Texans - 14.7
    Saints - 14.6
    Cowboys - 14.1
    Bengals - 14.0
    Dolphins - 13.8
    Packers - 13.1
    Giants - 12.7
    Bears - `12.2
    Steelers - 12.1
    Patriots - 11.7
    Cardinals - 11.5

    Again, the Dolphins are in the middle of the pack among the best in the league. As much as people have complained that Hartline and Bess can’t get deep and have no YAC skills, their yards per catch compares pretty favorable to most of the top receiving corps in the NFL.

    I expect most of the responses to this thread to point out that Hartline and Bess have only 2 TDs between them. That they can’t catch TDs. That although neither is perceived as a deep threat, they can’t be effective in the close quarters of the red zone. I don’t think there is any truth to that. The truth is that TD reception numbers depend a lot on a number of factors that have nothing to do with the WR and WR TD numbers can vary widely from season to season. Calvin Johnson had 16 last year but has only 4 this year. Brandon Marshall has been a 10 TD some years and a 3 TD guy others. Andre Johnson has very bit of size, speed, strength and jumping ability you could ever ask for in a WR, but he has just 3 TDs this year. The truth is that the Dolphins haven’t thrown a whole lot of passes in the red zone and when they have, Tannehill has not thrown well in that area. It’s not uncommon for rookies to struggle in the red zone. Not all do, but most do. If the thinking is that the Dolphins need to replace Bess or Hartline with a jumbo, physical receiver who will excel in the red zone, I think the likely result is something like Marshall’s 3 TD season his first year in Miami, unless Tannehill gets better (which he should, but if he does, Bess and Hartline’s TD numbers will go up anyhow).
     
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  2. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Classic Fineas. :up:
     
  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Good write up, I believe Ireland is the one that said we have a bunch of threes and fours.

    I don't want either one going anywhere..My goal for that unit would be to add two players, that eventually contribute fairly equally, and are somewhat interchangable.
     
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  4. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Bess and HArtline are targeted so much ebcuase we don't have anybody else.

    Our 3rd WR has been 3 differnet guys thus far, none of whom have been effective. And our TE play has been spotty with the exception of Clay's good game last week

    So yes, we have nobody else to consistently throw to. Take a look at GB whom I suppose we're suppsoed to be emulating. They threw to starting WRs only 33% of the time. That's because they have 4 good WRs plus good TE's. they have a multitude of weapons who all have different roles.

    Same thing with teams like NE. Who cares what their starting WRs are catching when they have two monsters at TE.

    At the end of the day, what's the point of this thread? Are you suggesting we shouldn't bother to, or have no need to upgrade our WR unit, or our pass catching unit in general?

    this has nothing to do with Ireland by the way. I don't understand the zeal with which some here want to claim we are a great team that doesn't need improvement.
     
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  5. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    WADR to the OP, some of those numbers have to do with defenses playing the run and sneaking the safeties up etc.
     
  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Bottom line for me, I believe they can be part of a unit that is championship caliber, just have to hit on the other two..
     
  7. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    the poor house

    this what you might call denial and dolphin fans have been this way since welker left and Bess is nowhere close to being at Welker's level.

    your post nail it . I think some folks love losing andlove nothaving a superstar wr or te for that matter.
     
  8. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Then why are Bess and Hartline more efficient than the Pats and Packer WRs in terms of yards per target and yards per catch? If we throw to them so much because we have no other options, defenses whould know that and be able to stop it. But they haven't. And why is it a bad thing that we throw to them so much when they catch the same percentage of passes thrown to them but for more yards per attempt?

    The point of this thread is to say that Bess and Hartline are good. As a tandem, they are about as efficient as the very best WR corps in the league. I thought I had made that point pretty clear in the OP, but I can repeat is several times and supply more stats to support it if I failed to do so. Every unit can use an upgrade if an upgrade is available and WR is no different. But if we can a stud WR or two, are we likely to complete more than 65-66% of the passes thrown to them? No. Are we likely to get more than 9-9.5 yards per target? No. So if it won't help us complete more passes or get more yards when we do, maybe it is not the urgent problem that many people (including you it seems) believe it is.

    There's no zeal to show we don't need improvement. Improvement is always good. And we are not a great team. I don't understand the zeal with which some here want to claim the sky is falling and every position is a position of urgent need even when the guys we currently have at those positions are performing at a level of effectiveness and efficiency that is equivalent to the very in the NFL. But hey, I guess we're different that way.
     
  9. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    IMO the reluctance to be "sold" on these guys comes from wanting "sexy" physical characteristics, a la Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson, and not realizing that Hartline and Bess have a lot of the "Jerry Rice" type characteristics that can make receivers very successful.
     
  10. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You Club Member

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    I think we need another contributor (Mike Wallace is my top choice in 2013... Dwayne Bowe or Greg Jennings is a fine consolation prize) at the wide receiver to go alongside Hartline and Bess. Personally I think a possible outcome is we re-sign Brian Hartline to 3-4 year deal and then we sign Greg Jennings to a 2-3 year deal because of his disappointing 2012 campaign due to injuries and then draft a wide receiver in the second or third round in 2013.
     
  11. P h i N s A N i T y

    P h i N s A N i T y My Porpoise in Life

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    :wink2:
     
  12. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting stats but we still need more out the TE and running backs out of the backfield.
     
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  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Which makes Reggie B's disappearance from the passing game all the more odd.

    I think we may have thrown to DTrain more than Reggie B
     
  14. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The discontent with Bess and Hartline borderlines on ludicrous. At a certain point, their production on the field should outweigh their draft status and 40 time.

    Bess and Hartline have not been promoted past their level of competence. Their workload has not resulted in inefficiency. They are catching a good % of passes(both 65.5% of targets). Neither one has a disproportionate amount of interceptions thrown at them(3 apiece). I don't believe anyone is performing less well in any major area.
     
  15. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member


    They can be the mid level wideouts on a deep playoff team imo as well , the receiving options/threats above them have to be significantly better though , imo. Right now , of ocurse we don't have that from the TE , WR or RB position.
     
  16. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    LOL. Like Rice's 49 TDs through his first 4 years and ability to beat defenses repeatedly despite trying to stop him? Yeah, I can see the resemblance there. :unsure:


    I guess Roberto Wallace should've been a stud since he has similar physical characteristics that make Johnson & Johnson successful.
     
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  17. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    As Mike Mayock also stated , Miami is virtually in the red zone in all areas of the field. This could be changed with more effective weapons in the passing game , this doesn't diminish that Hartline , Bess and Fasano have value, but they don't change the fact that teams play Miami in this regard .
     
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  18. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    I suppose that was Jerry Rice's only characteristic? He had no others that were similar to those of Bess and Hartline?
     
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  19. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree..we've got to add two players who have some dynamic traits..

    I see no problem upgrading our offense with the resources we have..
     
  20. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Go check on the performance of the typical rookie QB. How do you suppose you would go out there and defend one?
     
  21. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    What discontent? They're both solid secondary level receivers. Unfortunately, when they're forced into being our top 2 receivers they allow us little to no ability to dictate games to defenses as noted in this recent Miami Herald article:

    Hartline & Bess are complementary pieces at the WR position, not focal pieces.
     
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  22. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think the discontent is that rampant...I'm surprised you do, at least based on what I've seen on the boards. I think the gripe with the receiving corps is that while Hartline and Bess are solid starters, there's still "something missing" from the receiving corps. I think Brandon Marshall, minus the BPD and off-field issues, added that missing piece...the quarterback play just didn't measure up.

    The fact that the most TDs Hartline or Bess has produced in a season is only 5 (Davone Bess in 2010), and they've only produced a combined total of 18 receiving TDs in a combined almost 8 full seasons (Bess 4 plus this year, and Hartline 3 plus this year) speaks more to a trend than Fineas alluded to. Obviously QB play is a factor, but despite both Hartline and Bess proving they can get deep on occasion, how many times have they really busted a long TD, or taken a quick slant to the house?

    I think even you've alluded to adding someone like a Mike Wallace would round out this receiving corps. It's pricey yes, but I think he can really take the lid off a defense a lot more effectively than Hartline and Bess, leaving them to underneath and intermediate stuff; thus allowing Miami to attack 3 different levels of opposing defenses with consistency, rather than two. If Charles Clay continues developing, then you're cooking with gas so long as you keep Ryan Tannehill upright. Rishard Matthews seems like he could be a very nice #4 receiver as well.

    But I think at some point, if you're really looking at this team "taking the next step" one of those serious questions that Ireland, Philbin, and the coaches would have to ask themselves is, "Would you forgo re-signing Brian Hartline to use money on Mike Wallace?". That's just an example, but, I think that at present, Miami doesn't really have that game-changer in the current mix. Even Jeff Ireland said as much on Hard Knocks in his interview with Peter King.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/12568/brian-hartline
    http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/11678/davone-bess
     
  23. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Exactly.
    If you've got a pair of starting receivers who are anemic when it comes to scoring, then where is the scoring supposed to come from? If we want to score 26+ pts/game, who's accounting for the OTHER 25+ touchdowns? Who's making up for the WR position? That's a lot of stress to put on the TE, ground game, PR/KR, and defense. WADR to everyone, I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.

    It's not the QB who has affected their scoring ability; it's them who've affected the QB.... with Henne being a case in point. He couldn't score crap with them (just as Tannehill can't), but Henne hasn't had a problem the past 2 weeks with a more talented WR group (6 TDs, 615 yards, 118.9 QBR).... and Jacksonville's group of receivers certainly don't have a problem scoring with Henne at QB as their two young studs, Blackmon & Shorts, have 4 TDs over the past 2 games, so the argument of "Hartline didn't score b/c of Henne" is complete BS. The guy isn't a scorer, period.
     
  24. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    So you are saying that Henne doesn't have the ability to improve.
     
  25. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Of course he does have the ability to improve, but to counter that notion:
    a) he didn't morph into a new player overnight as if emerging from a cocoon.
    b) how is he supposed to improve to the extent you're implying when he hasn't seen the field much from last year until now and has had few 1st team practice reps with these guys?


    It's much more logical that the 2 guys who have had trouble scoring throughout their careers with Henne, Moore, and now Tannehill have done so b/c of them, not the QB.
     
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  26. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Quality work, Fineas. I only wonder how this offense would have been perceived had Edmund (Edmond?) Gates had developed.
     
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  27. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You said it in your original post, its the lack of big plays ...touchdowns that make the group weak. We don't break quick short passes for TDs, we don't have big yardage TDs or redzone TDs from our WRs. They are a weak link on our team no doubt. It limits our playcalling, our redzone offense and our scoring options. Moving the ball is obviously nice but we need someone that can simply overwhelm a defense now and then and get us points. A lot of teams defenses will take a ton of yards and field goals as long as they aren't giving up TDs its a good trade. No WR on our team scares anyone, no team's coaching staff or defense stays up at night worrying about our WR group. It needs another big target and a good TE IMO.
     
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  28. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think when you have people claiming you have to get rid of either one of Bess or Hartline and draft multiple receivers, that neither of them should ever be better than #3 or #4 players, or when you advocate some of the theories people have about them being successful nearly entirely through defensive neglect, you've got discontent that doesn't really line up with reality.

    No, you're right, I agree with all of that.

    I think touchdowns are situational and based on other factors than people tend to allow. Neither Hartline and Bess are great red-zone threats, but I don't think either are particularly bad as they appear, and if you have otherwise good players, you find a way to do it other ways.

    I think you've also got to take a critical look at who actually busts long touchdowns with any regularity, and how many players you can realistically expect to have that are capable of that.

    I like Mike Wallace a lot, and I think in the right circumstances you pay a lot of money for him, but I don't know if Miami is in that situation.

    Miami should go for a generalist in my opinion. Mike Wallace don't fit red zone issues, for example.
     
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  29. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Nah, it's better to just rely on theory and personal opinion.
     
  30. jboogie

    jboogie The sky is NOT falling!

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  31. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    No, that I agree with you on. IMO they're both valuable receivers in their own right when put into proper perspective, which is--- if they can be used to compliment a full & talented receiving cast rather than serving as the primary 2 targets. I'd put Bess & Hartline on linebackers, safeties, and nickel corners all day long if I could mismatch it that way. Unfortunately, until we have a talented addition at WR to draw #1 corners, we're faced with #1 corners playing Hart & Bess, which doesn't present us with much of a mismatch, nor as much consistency as we would like IMO.
     
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  32. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's pretty amusing to see the Dolphins more successful in the red zone than teams who are apparently doing it right.
     
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  33. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    These threads are all the same. Somebody does the work to show something objectively, and there are a handful or so of people who just won't be convinced by any means, who then create the entire ensuing debate.

    Just let those folks continue to believe what they will. It ain't gonna change.

    Hell, if a guy in the Middle East can believe he's doing the right thing by strapping a bomb to his body and going into a building a blowing up hundreds of innocent people, well then I suppose people are capable of believing just about whatever they want. Bess and Hartline kinda pale in comparison.
     
  34. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    To see the difference between QB's numbers with and without playmakers, take a look at Tom Brady's career statistics.

    Without a combination of Moss, Welker, Gronk, or Hernandez, his stats are above average. Not elite. In fact, he's never thrown over 30 td's without them. His numbers are certainly very good. We haven't had a QB throw 20 TD's since Marino, so I'm not going to knock Brady's stats... But by no means are Tom Brady's numbers striking.

    Look at his stats with a combination of Moss, Welker, Gronk, and Hernandez. Pretty ****ing unbelievable. Tops or close to in the league. As long as he's got those guys on the field with him, he's consistantly thrown for more TD's, yards, completion %, fewer INT's, etc...

    Playmakers make plays because... Playmakers present mismatches. Playmakers open up options. Playmakers create unpredictability. This is even more true in the current NFL era where passing the football is at a premium.

    There is no debate to be had. Guys like Hartline and Bess are very good role players. Even Fasano is pretty decent. I'm sure every team could find a home for them if they became available. But they're not playmakers. They're not even complete players. There are gaping holes in their games that limit their ability to uplift a team or a QB consistently. Our offense will not be dangerous without the addition of playmakers who can stay on the field consistently in all situations.
     
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  35. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    It's a fair question that will go largely ignored on this board. This team has been pretty solid in the red zone when it has gotten there -- as god as top teams like Atlanta and SF. That they end up scoring via the run instead of the pass is fine with me. The problem has been getting those red zone scoring opportunities. http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-attempts-per-game. There are several reasons for that.

    One is that the Dolphins' average starting field position is 27th in the NFL. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestats.

    One is that the Dolphins are 7th in the league in most giveaways. http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/giveaways-per-game.

    One is that the Dolphins are 5th worst in takeaways. http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/takeaways-per-game.

    Improvement in 3rd down conversions would help. http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct
     
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  36. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    That Brady comment has to be among the most meaningless of all time. Th combination of receivers and TEs you point to cover the entire prime of his career and the significant change the Patriots offense that began in 2007. In truth, what Brady has shown is that he can produce largely those same numbers with any one or two of those guys out of the lineup. When Moss hit the wall, the Pats ditched hm and the offense kept rolling. When Welker has been out, Julian Edelman fills in and the offense keeps rolling. When Hernandez was out, they kept rolling. With Gronk out, they keep rolling.

    The "playmakers" you laud didn't seem to make plays when they didn't have the great QB or great offense to enable them to. Welker was no elite playmaker when he was in Miami. Moss was no great playmaker in Oakland or Tennessee or SF.

    Every QB who puts up big numbers has receivers that also get big numbers, but that doesn't mean it was because of those receivers. Marino never put up big numbers without some combination of Clayton, Duper or Fryar, but that doesn't mean those guys were responsible for Marino's production. Drew Brees never put up big numbers without some combination of Gates, VJackson, Colston and Graham, but that doesn't mean he would suck without them. Etc.
     
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  37. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    In all fairness, it's nice that we look ok on paper from a redzone efficiency standpoint (ranked 12th), but we both know that alone doesn't correlate to a successful offense, nor tell the whole story.

    • Redzone scores per game (TDs): 25th
    • Redzone scoring attempts per game: 31st
    • Points per play: 24th
     
  38. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Back in Miami
    A whole lot of stats that simply show a team making due with what it has.
    Really that's all the initial post is.

    It really says nothing about the skill set of the group or how much of a threat to defenses this group actually is.

    The starting WR's on this team are consistent and clutch in making catches.
    We knew that without a bunch of regurgitated stats about their catches.
    Point is that none of them are dangerous threats that will ever be able to be serious concerns for a defense, stretch the field consistently or demand rolling extra secondary help to them thereby loosening up a defensive secondary.

    Its amazing to me that some really will try to argue were solid at all positions.
    Don't at all get it. It's mind boggling quite frankly.
    To each his own.
     
    GMJohnson likes this.
  39. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Some more stats to back you up:

    Bess is 6th in win probability added. Hartline is 29th.

    Hartline is 25th in expected points added. Bess is 38th.

    Hartline is 22nd in yards per target. Bess is 44th.

    They fair better in win probability. With Bess I think that's because he catches so many passes on 3rd down. Individually, I think expected points added and yards per target are better ways to judge their performance/value. While not elite, I think they hold up pretty well for playing with a rookie QB behind a inconsistent offensive line and ****ty running game.

    I think they are both good players. Are they complete, elite players? Probably not. Should we look to upgrade the position, particularly with a player that has more straight line speed? Probably. Should we be happy with the value they bring to the team regardless of their issues? I think so. And I think they are fairly far down the list of problems with this team. Plus, I'd like to second Fineas' post. Well stated.
     
  40. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Brady and the pats keep on "rolling" because they have a combination of playmakers. When Moss hit the wall, that offense stagnated. They had to re-align the whole thing. Tom Brady was not nearly as effective in 2009. In 2010, NE drafted Gronk (greatest rookie TE season ever, then followed up with greatest TE season ever). Oh and that Hernandez kid, another top 5 TE in the NFL. When Welker gets hurt, it's not the end of the world because there are other playmakers on the team. Hernandez goes down, there are other playmakers. As I said, playmakers present options and create diversity. Thank you for agreeing?


    And no, I never said talented QB's would "suck" without their star players. I said there is a difference in production. Take a look at Drew Brees's numbers when before and after Graham's injury... The offense opened up. Suddenly, teams had to play them differently to account for a massive threat. It was harder to contain that offense. Bree's numbers went up, their offensive production went up, and their wins went up.

    Are we really going to pretend that playmakers don't alter the game? Even the opposite is true. Look at Larry Fitzgerald. With a talented QB, his production is all-world. With Skelton/Kolb/Leinart, he's not nearly that impressive. He's not nearly the same threat with those guys as he was with Kurt Warner. Great players make each other better and more productive.


    Get real. You give Miami a top 5 WR in the NFL and Tannehill's production would improve in every measurable category.

    And yes, your argument about Marino holds true, IMO. The guy did more with less talent than anyone in the history of the NFL. As said by a once by a former Miami offensive coordinator, you can't turn chicken **** into chicken salad. Without Danny, Miami has no offense. You're telling me Marino wouldn't of had more success (stats, wins and losses, playoffs) with guys like Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Moss, Megatron, Graham, Fitz, etc... than with his craptastic WR's/TE's? Guy finished the last decade of career surrounded by mediocrity.
     
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