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Comparing the Dolphins Starting WRs to the League's Best

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fineas, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    James Jones has more passing down snaps than anyone you listed. He's got multiple games worth of snaps over his peers on the Packers roster(120+ on Nelson and 220+ on Cobbs).

    It's not as if he isn't being thrown the ball, either. He's got one less target than Jordy Nelson, and there are a lot of much more productive players than Jones with the amount he's thrown at.

    He's a poster child for someone who has been promoted past his level of competence.
     
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  2. Rhody Phins Fan

    Rhody Phins Fan Well-Known Member

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    Jones has a 63% catch rate and 8 touchdowns. I'm not sure how he was promoted past his level of competence. Seems like he has been pretty productive. He would have definitely been a good addition to this team. I mean how could he not? Our third wide receiver has four catches.
     
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  3. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think him catching 63% of targets makes up for how inefficient he is. Catching a decent percentage of passes doesn't mean a lot when he is unproductive relative to how much he's on the field.

    Brian Hartline is 24th in yards produced per pass run. Davone Bess is 39th. James Jones is 110th.
     
  4. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    I'm not sure that the argument of "he's producing less than Nelson & Cobb therefore he's not productive" is a very sound one. How productive are Jones's 8 TDs on 67 targets compared to the 2 on 182 targets from Hartline & Bess? If anyone has been promoted past their level of competence it's the starting duo of Hartline & Bess, WADR.
     
  5. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    1 TD per 8.4 attempts is inefficient? What does that make Hartline's ratio of 1:92 and Bess's 1:90? If that's not the worst in the NFL for a starting duo (and perhaps in NFL history) I'd be shocked.

    How do these rankings change when you substitute touchdowns for yards?
     
  6. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's not in the context of Nelson and Cobb. There's not many players in the league you can argue are as nearly as inefficient as Jones for as often as he's on the field. The only receiver who produces less yards per snap than Jones and is often on the field is someone who was just benched for purposely sabotaging his teams offense

    If there's any actual argument for Bess and Hartline being above their heads I'd love to see it
     
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  7. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Well, it seems there's a mentality by some that Hart & Bess are irreproachable, as if any attempt to upgrade them as starters is futile. That's the problem I have with them, not their presence on the team but their presence as a pair of starters.
     
  8. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Where? How do you get that? Who? Name one person who comes close to fitting this mold.
     
  9. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    not you so don't worry about it.
     
  10. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I want to see names.

    You are totally taking things to a HUGE extreme.
     
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  11. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    nothing hurts a little dramatic affect. :) ..... but seriously, no one has come out and said it verbatim but some of the arguments made for Bess & Hartline and against Tannehill seem to essentially imply an attempt to upgrade them is futile.
     
  12. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    The only name that comes close to fit that is shouright and that is kind of a poor misrepresentation of him.

    The only arguments I have read are, "hartline and bess are not as bad as a lot of people say" and "upgrading them might be a little more difficult than being presented as so many people are saying anyone is better"
     
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We need two receivers Pate, we only have two..and we need a talented tight end, we only have one at this point, (Clay is more of an H to me)

    When Jennings is healthy, I would say they have a top 3 unit..

    I want Jennings, and hi draft pick, I don't see why that's too much to ask, regardless of what Bess and Hart are producing..
     
  14. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't really care about touchdowns unless I'm drafting them for fantasy football. There are so many other factors outside of it, and James Jones being basically a red zone specialist with little else to recommend him I don't think accounts for much.

    Sure. They aren't irreproachable, but they will functionally be difficult to "reproach". If you've managed to push Bess and Hartline way down the roster then you've either been very lucky or very irresponsible with your resources.
     
  15. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah, I know that's your opinion and the opinion of others, I just don't understand why.

    Doing it doesn't match the reality of top offenses, and it doesn't utilize resources efficiently. Maybe if you're letting Brian Hartline walk, but even then, I'm not sure what you're going for or modeling after.
     
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ok, just so I know where your coming from, you think spending money on a player like Jennings,combined with a receiver in the 2nd round, is to much resources for a unit that has the already established Hartline and Bess?.. Basically i think your argument is those two are good enough Which Could allow us to allocate a lower level of resources to the unit and put it elsewhere? Is that accurate?
     
  17. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Last year, Marshall had a bunch of yards, but few TDs, and people crucified him. He was "overrated", "not a top 10 receiver," etc. This year, people are talking like Hartline and Bess are All-Pros, because they have a bunch of yards...yet they don't score points. Can we at least keep it consistent?
     
  18. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Because we need to score more? Need quick strike touchdowns?

    They are functional, but where are the points coming from? We are near the bottom of the league in PPG. We are almost being lapped by the Patriots this year. What's your plan to get more points? Wait on Tannehill to develop, look for a TE upgrade, line upgrade, RB upgrade? Just curious, because our offense needs help, or do you think it is functionally fine and we can go into next year as is?
     
  19. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Uh, yes? :headscratch:

    How well do you figure he should be playing as a rookie? How many points do you think he should be driving this team to score?
     
  20. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    What does Tannehill's play have to do with our "starting" receivers [use that term loosely] not being able to create on their own once the ball is in their hands?!!!

    If anything you're putting too much stress on a rookie QB to carry the offense in a more precision-like fashion to make up for Hartline & Bess's lack of playmaking ability b/c they're probably the only starting duo in the NFL who have zero, I repeat ZERO true playmaking ability. That aspect of the game is COMPLETELY removed from our offense, as well as the THREAT of of that aspect, too, yet you seem to have this mentality that it's no big deal. There's a lot of aspects to our offense that are MISSING with Hartline forced into being your top receiver and the slot receiver Bess forced into being your starter on the perimeter. I have no idea why this is like Chinese math for you to comprehend, Shou.

    A legitimate primary receiver has the ability to run under that missed deep pass in the 1st quarter, but Hartline (who runs the equivalent of a 4.62 when he's at full speed) does NOT. Hart's lack of top end speed makes him a receiver who, on vertical throws, is NOT easy to lead in the least, and if you've never been a QB then don't even attempt a counter argument to this point. Furthermore, a legitimate primary receiver doesn't let an off target throw smack him in the balls and drop it. Great receivers haul in both of those passes and make the QB's game stats look great on paper. A quality complimentary #3 receiver, however, contributes in all the ways that Hartline presently contributes.
     
  21. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    The issue with that is that our WRs did not score much with Henne either. What if QB isn't the only issue? Im not sure just waiting and hoping is the best course of action.
     
  22. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Dupree the whole point of this thread is an attempt to prove Bess and Hartline are a strong starting tandem in the NFL and anyone saying otherwise are ignoring "clear facts". So honestly I think it's the thread itself that is taking an extreme angle.

    That is why there is strong opposition to the message.

    Again, I don't think anyone considers Bess or Hartline as untalented at all.
    Trying to argue they are a great 1 and 2 starting combo is where the disconnect comes in.

    Bottom line is that if every team had to rebuild by clearing their rosters and redraft from the same player pool tomorrow how many teams would have Bess and Hartline slotted as a number one WR priority to draft? That's really all that needs be said here.

    I feel these guys are a strong 2 and slot WR combo.
    The need, or desire if it's more palatable for some of you, for a talented go to playmaker at WR should'nt cause such a discussion. It is what it is.
     
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  23. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I thought the whole point of the thread was that they are not as bad as people are making them out to be and not as big as a part of the problem.

    No where did Fineas say he doesn't want an upgrade to the wide receiver position. He does say it might not be as easy as just going out and getting any big name wide receiver.

    I am all for upgrading the wide receiver position. I am not for trying to make Hartline and Bess look worse than they are or to downplay their accomplishment if they both do make it to 1,000 yards on the season.

    I am a huge Hartline fan and well less of a Bess fan. When Bess plays well I love him, when he plays like he did against New England I like him a lot less. However I would love for a 1st and a 3rd or two 2nds are used on wide receiver to see if Miami can get an upgrade.

    Plus I would be pleased as punch if Mathews got some playing time ahead of Bess as I just do not think Bess is good on the outside.
     
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  24. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    If that truly was the angle of this thread then I agree wholeheartedly.

    There has just been a lot of talk on these boards over the past year down playing the WR position to the point of absurdity IMO.
    You want to build as complete and as dangerous a team as possible and that goes for all positions.
    A complete WR that is dynamic, fast, consistent and a talented route runner can make a big difference to any offense regardless of the scheme. All I'm saying. Bess and Hartline are not that and it's ok. They aren't supposed to be. They are very talented players in the right roles.
     
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  25. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    I rate Bess and Hartline but if any team is screaming out for a deep threat WR and a TE who can get open short to mid range its us. That Hartline/Tanny downfield miss yesterday was an example. It was a game changing play imo. That play could have set the tone. Damn shame we missed on that play. I'm not blaming Tanny or Hartline. It happens.
     
  26. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    There is strong opposition to the message because people want to put lots of stock in what they're seeing and believe themselves to be "experts" of some kind. When they get objective data contrary to what their eyes are telling them, they ignore or discount it so as to preserve their belief in their own expertise. It's actually pretty haughty IMO.
     
  27. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    Nobody are 'experts' Shou. We all have our opinions, that's all they are. Opinions based on how we can see our team improve. Nothing wrong with that. Nobody is always right and nobody is always wrong. When a team has deficiencies and weaknesses then every player, schemes and coach is up for scrutiny.
     
  28. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    The personal opinion of anybody here, including myself, should be highly tentative and ready to change quickly in the face of objective evidence IMO. There should not be this "tug of war" when people present something objective that has been thoroughly researched, when the rebuttal consists of nothing but "I see things differently." Come on already. Who are you? :confused1:
     
  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Enough with this "ignoring of data" nonsense. Give me an actual football argument, not cursory statistics, about what you feel makes Hartline & Bess a quality starting WR tandem. Start with why you think they're an asset to the scoring department, the benefit they offer the offense with the ball in their hands, how they allow us to dictate the game to a defense (including an ability to consistently beat cover 2), how they help create space for others to make plays (especially the run game), their affect on the safeties, and finish it off with a draft grade you'd assign them (and why) to give us a feel for the overall value you'd assign them. This would be a nice change from this false circular argument you keep pushing.
     
  30. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    You've given none. You subjectively shove some cursory stats down our throats that fit your belief, label it as evidence, and then disregard all counterarguments that point out the true fallacy in the stats you're using.

    Let's just make this easy. What traits do you believe makes up the ideal NFL receiver? You can use a lengthy checklist of all the possible attributes if you like.
     
  31. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Since the objective research has already been done in this thread (see the original post), why don't we start by having you explain how Bess and Hartline are doing the things in the original post with a rookie QB with a 70 QB rating that other receivers are doing only with veteran QBs who have demonstrated much greater ability in the league.
     
  32. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes, basically.

    It's not just expense, it's efficiency. Even if the expense is fine, you're not going to use four wide receivers efficiently. You can't say "Yeah, well Green Bay did it" because they're pretty much the only example and are in a better position to balance it than Miami is, and were only going to be there briefly. They had a season where the outgoing and incoming players both played well and co-existed while Aaron Rodgers was playing out of his mind.

    I don't like it and still think it's a **** argument, but letter Brian Hartline walk and them doing what people are suggesting makes a lot more sense. Ryan Tannehill needs help, but there is a point when you have too many weapons.
     
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  33. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Yes
     
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  34. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I'll tell you what I'm looking for.
    - sure hands
    - either a great route runner, or such a phsycial freak that he can separate on qucikness, size, speed alone.. but ideally BOTH
    - Scares safeties corners, because he can and does get deep on them AND catch the ball
    - Can catch in traffic and hold onto the ball
    - makes plays when it counts most (crunch time)
    - can go up in the air over DBs and ssafeties to win a jump ball (really makes a big difference in the end zone)
    - has a knock for getting TDs, not just garbage time yards in the middle of the field
    - is rarely or never injured
    - blocks for his teamates on runs or runs after they catch the ball
    - breaks tackles and runs for yards after the catch.
    - smart player, executes playbook properly, is where he should be, when he should be there (precise)
    - understands situational football and does the right thing at the right time to help the team (i.e., when to go out of bounds versus stay in bound, etc)

    That would be ideal.

    Now, there is probably damned near no one who ticks ALL the boxes... but you start your evals from there and work backwards, looking for the guy who ticks the MOST boxes, and preferably the highest priority boxes (I can put them in order of priority if you want).
     
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  35. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I look for a 1:1 TD:INT ratio as a baseline to whether a QB has issues or is doing fine and is on track.
     
  36. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    No, that is not the point of the thread.
     
  37. shouright

    shouright Banned

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  38. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Those are just stats. They might be objective [Fineas usually is and I have great respect for him], but they're not conclusive of anything.

    Why? For every rational & objective point that's made, you'll just play the deflection game and dismiss it as the QB's fault.

    The below stat for instance:
    These are just stats, not conclusive of anything. They don't prove Miami's duo is better than anyone else.

    All this shows is Tannehill throws them the ball more than the rest of the offense, that's it, which MAKES SENSE considering:
    a) we've had no one behind them to eat into that 46%!!!
    b) they're not good enough to dictate coverage, hence (as stated by our TE coach) teams can creep the safeties up and play a lot of zone to take away the short game (both run & pass), which by default will OBVIOUSLY make life more difficult for backs & TEs to get involved in the passing game.

    It's simple common sense that if you have a limited amount of receiving targets and less opportunity to get backs & tight ends involved that your starting duo will receive more attempts. This is how unthreatening Hartline & Bess are as a starting pair--> defenses know the ball is going their way 47.5% yet still don't care about exiting their game plan in order to pay the duo more attention.


    The above stat is not true. Bess & Hartline's combined reception rate is 58.5%.
    That's not very good considering they're possession-oriented receivers rather than the Lions or Giants offense with personnel allowing for more shots downfield to impact the completion%. Actually, for a WCO that revolves more around higher percentage completions, 58.5% is pretty bad.


    The above stat is also wrong. Bess & Hartline's combined yards per target is 8.18.

    The further we get away from the lone Arizona anomaly, the lower these stats continue to drop, and the less excuse-making you'll be afforded.

    Below are the real & non-misleading stats w/o the Zona game inflating them considering one game doesn't supersede the average production of the rest of the season, as it takes a full season of consistent production to make the playoffs.... and the last I checked, the NFL doesn't allow excessive production from one game to be re-distrubuted to lacking weeks.

    11 games of combined Hartline & Bess stats (excluding Zona)



    • [*=1]57.7% reception rate
      [*=1]7.4 yards per attempt
      [*=1]1 TD
      [*=1]113 combined yards per game
    **TERRIBLE considering they HAVE TO BE targeted nearly 50% of the time and with defenses not having to roll extra coverage their way.

    Julio & Roddy
    (in the face of stricter coverage AND w/o an inordinate amount of combined production coming from just one game)


    • [*=1]62.4% completion
      [*=1]9.7 yards per attempt
      [*=1]10 TDs
      [*=1]163 yards per game
    I'm shocked at the notion Bess & Hartline are accomplishing what other good receiving duos are doing. :p
    /end thread.
     
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  39. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Thanks BPK. So essentially our starting duo combined fails to meet half that list. I can understand that being the case with one starter, especially if he's a possession-based compliment to a real playmaker, but to have both starters? :pity:

    I'd also add catch radius to that (namely if we're talking a perimeter receiver, and especially if that perimeter receiver isn't a threat to run by coverage to where lack of height is less significant). There's at least a few critical completions we missed b/c Bess's catch radius is probably a foot less than a taller receiver's. I'd move separation ability onto the checklist, including the ability to maintain or gain separation downfield (IE: long speed).
     
  40. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Pierre Garcon just went up and caught a ball on an out route that would've sailed right over Bess's head.... and now the Skins are in scoring range thanks to it.
     
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