Comparing the Dolphins Starting WRs to the League's Best

No no no no no.... you threw in the ridiculous "miracle" comment which entirely changed the context. Nice try, Dupree.

So I guess you're saying it's not a plus to have a WR with the ability to convert these throws when his QB happens to be off target?

LOL. I don't have Hartline. I like him a lot. I hate that we have to rely on his vertical ineptitude as our starting flanker. Yeah, my special powers made Hartline have no deep speed nor tracking ability whatsoever. I find it funny that you and others sit here tuggin on his junk yet NEVER show instances of him either hauling in off target throws downfield nor any proof of long speed. Where is it? He's in his 4th year now, so there's no excuse to not have proof of existence.

If his QBs have been as bad as you and others say, then he should have MORE opportunities to provide you with proof of playmaking skills on off-target throws, not less.... so show them!! Cmon, break out the photoshop!!

 

So you're ok with Hartline as our starting flanker of the future leaving big plays on the field regardless of Tannehill's accuracy on the throw? You believe his vertical prowess should be a blessing to any QB fortunate enough to have him blazing down the field?

 

Here's the pro-Hartline argument in a nutshell: "talent shouldn't matter at WR b/c the QB is responsible for everything".

 

It didn't change the context, you just do understand humor or sarcasm or words.

You are really good at jumping to conclusions.

However if Tannehill is 50% at these throws, it is obviously not a wide receiver problem.

LOL, of course you don't. You have just created threads to point out that Hartline cannot make a catch unless the defense doesn't care that he exists.

 

Really good at making things up.

 

I suppose the other 50% are all the fault of the receivers?

 

Check the original post. Bess and Hartline are doing things with a rookie QB with a 72 QB rating that other receiving tandems are doing only with veterans who have demonstrated much greater ability in the league.

 

If we had as many TDs as this thread has sarcastic LOLs we'd be 12-0.

 

Post of the thread award goes to Bpk!

 

Apparently you close your eyes during every throw that isn't dropped perfectly over his shoulder.

I just illustrated one such routine example of Hartline's inability to convert a very catchable underthrow.... but I guess that has nothing to do with downfield ability, eh?

If you're an NFL receiver and the DB covering you consistently has a better chance at getting his hands on a catchable underthrow, then yes, you most certainly do have an ineptitude, especially when you make visual contact before he does. How many youtube clips would you like posted of WRs who have no problem coming back on underthrows to make plays for their QB? Stop ignoring an important aspect of the vertical game, which is your receiver actually making a play on the ball.

 

Obviously a QB will miss throws..... but when your receiver can't come back and make a play on a very catchable underthrow, yes, part of that 50% is on him. When he runs his route too close to the sideline to where his QB has no room to work with, yes, part of that 50% is on him. I don't know why you think the WR bears little responsibility on his end to finish the conversion if the pass isn't right on target.

 

It's nice when 80 of those 247 result from such busted coverage that 3 defenders keyed on the pokey Davone Bess and left Hartline all by himself.
That's just under 10% of his season's yards coming from the type of busted coverage you'd expect from high school kids (through no provocation of Hartline).


Hartline's "high catch percentage"? Don't confuse catch percentage with completion percentage, as most of those completions were on passes that were as pretty as can be. None of those other receivers miss so many catchable passes that aren't:

 

Your response (below) to the above post really says it all in terms of how you assimilate information. Someone gives you a very solid, objective stat such as that above, and your rebuttal involves one play and a theory.

I mean do you really believe your response is on anywhere near as solid a footing?

 

Once again, one play and a theory.

 

Yes, I have a better chance of seeing Rudolph land on my roof than Hartline making a play on an off-target but catchable throw downfield.


How do you consider a few cursory stats as objective but ignore such un-ignorable stats like 3 TDs IN THREE YEARS?
..... and ignore illustrations clearly highlighting Hartline's ineptitude at making plays downfield on off-target but catchable passes? Show me one he's made.
.... and ignore Bess & Hart's lack of stats inside scoring range? (which I've given)
.... and ignore Hartline's consistent inability to make plays with the ball in his hands?
.... and ignore 3+ years of stats showing Hartline ranks below average in 20+ yard production? (which I provided)
... and ignore our receivers' poorly inconsistent production during 92% of the season? (which I provided)
.... and ignore comment's like Dan Campbell's about how defenses can play us (coverage-wise) b/c of our personnel?
.... and ignore the fact there's NO DEPTH behind them to eat into production and CHALLENGE their jobs?
..... and ignore how defenses can play zone as often as desired [effectively impairing our short passing & run game and limiting Bush's playmaking impact] due to Bess & Hartline's inability to force defenses out zone. When Reggie was on the field this much in N.O he averaged 80 catches per year with a receiving corps that actually threatened a defense.



But no, instead you plod along with this circular "Hartline & Bess have X amount of yards therefore they must be great" argument.
I've included so many relevant stats & instances that refute your argument, yet you seem unable to provide ones to refute mine.

 

One EIGHTY YARD PLAY responsible for his ONLY TD and nearly 10% of his yardage.

Hey, if one play doesn't mean much to you, then remove the anomaly from the stats and tell me what you end up with.


There's no theory involved with how pretty most of those throws were, and against tight coverage to boot.

 

Worthless rubble as usual..

Our WRs are bad overall, Cleveland has a better group and that's sad.

In short we need a god WR, we had one but he was given away. So we are stuck with average ball catchers.

End thread.

 

1st video: Oy Vey. This is about as much of an "adjustment" as a woman needing to fix a thong wedgie. You're lucky they don't create anti-highlight videos showcasing ALL the missed plays.

[video]http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d82289c5b/Hartline-38-yard-catch[/video]
Are you serious? It doesn't get much easier than that.

[video]http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/0ap1000000065594/QB-Tannehill-to-WR-Hartline-41-yd-pass[/video]
How do you consider that a special catch? It's a partial jump for an uncontested pass that he has clear line of sight on.
90% of college kids can make that catch. I'm 38 and haven't played in years and can still make that catch 9 of 10 times.

[video]http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/0ap1000000060889/QB-Tannehill-to-WR-Hartline-34-yd-pass[/video]
He didn't even have to break stride for this well thrown ball.

[video=youtube;LUl9n65mfys]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUl9n65mfys[/video]
That pass should've been caught in stride! Not only does Hartline pause his running 5 yards before the ball arrives but he doesn't even adjust his route a few feet to the left despite looking back at the ball for 20 yards.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-fantasy/0ap2000000067986/QB-Tannehill-to-WR-Hartline-30-yd-pass
Cmon, that's a soft rainbow right between his numbers. If he can't make that he belongs in JV football.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d815265cb/Brian-Hartline-Highlight-WK-15-vs-Titans-2009
YAY!!! Finally an actual play made downfield on a true off-target throw.... 3 years ago.
Of all the underthrows sent his way this is about the only legitimate downfield adjustment made.

4 years and that's all we can dig up? Thanks for proving my point? The above clips are negligible adjustments you'd expect from any average at best NFL receiver, and his toughest catch came from a ball he put himself out of position on. None of this supersedes the plethora of botches opportunities.


So we found our culprit. You only watch Miami Dolphin football.

 

Here are 2 times in one game vs Cleveland where he's outplayed on underthrows b/c he simply lacks the tracking ability to recognize the underthrow soon enough, plant, and then come back for the ball. Instead he lets the DB play it.

0:50 and 1:50 mark
[video=youtube;UXeYpryPxIk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXeYpryPxIk[/video]

add that to this week.... plus the handful of others just like these 3.

 

Uh, that's what is incumbent on you to do (and for all the players involved), if you think that play means so much in terms of the stats presented.

But you won't do that, will you. You figure it might disprove your theory or something?

 

"Fin-Omenal" hath spoken!

 

This really just goes to show how great of lengths people will go to denigrate Hartline's ability. Thats a perfect play all around. He shouldn't adjust his route to the left at all, because then Moore doesn't have enough sideline to work with. There is only about one spot where that ball could have been thrown safely, and Hartline does a great job recognizing it, and giving Moore enough room on the sideline. Most NFL receivers don't have the awareness or intelligence to recognize that.

ETA: also, don't forget to mention the fact that Hartline got off the LOS as cleanly as you could ask an NFL WR to.

 

This is why you stick to stats, because people will see what they will on a given play, and you have people who rebut the stats do so objectively and in an unbiased manner, which phinsational is unwilling to do.

Don't go down to his level of looking at individual plays. That's not where solid knowledge is.

 

Where did I even come close to insinuating I`m satisfied with Hartline being our only starting flanker of the future???
I said THAT particular pass was Tannehills fault. Period. You know it,I know it,everyone who seen it should know it. Actually,maybe you sadly dont know it...or wont admit it for some reason.

 

Hart did a great job getting off the line. I definitely noticed that.
Where the ball was thrown has nothing to do with what Hartline does while it's in flight path. Once it leaves Moore's finger tips, Hartline can and should be adjusting his route consider he's looking back at it for those last 20 yards. That's more than enough time to track it properly. That's my issue. There are plenty of receivers around the league whow can adjust their route by yards to haul in a horizontally off-target throw, have the closing speed to minimize overthrows, and will quickly recognize underthrows and come back on them to effectively make the reception rather than letting the DB play it.

Hartline has proven himself to be inadequate at tracking a ball. In this clip, it can't be argued that there was a need for Brian to pause 5 yards before the ball arrived [which in turn made him have to crazy-catch it], and looking back on the ball for those 20 yards is sufficient time to make the slight adjustment needed to run under the throw in proper tracking fashion rather that it being a couple feet to his left. There's no excuse to not catch that in stride, but for some reason he's typically falling down in some fashion or another, either falling down backwards like he has no balance and is tripping over his own feet as he lets the ball come to him or he's making lunging or diving efforts. That's why there's only 3 TDs the past 3 years. If he possessed any tracking ability and wasn't a top end speed guy he'd have caught most of those throws in stride, and we'd have a few more TDs and a few less INTs or broken up plays. Tracking ability is an important factor in being a vertical playmaker b/c incompletion rate is so high, so the receiver has gotta be able to make plays on his end.

 

The above catches aren't terrible, but that's about all of them in 4 years. Only 2 actually stand out, and one of those was a great catch b/c he made it have to be one. I watch a lot of football and witness receivers make those adjustments routinely, enough times that it sickens me to watch him falling backwards in a flailing attempt to catch an underthrow that he's been following in the air for 15-20 yards like we saw vs NE and Cleveland.

Do you think the WR coach gives a crud about blaming the QB for an off target throw like some posters are doing? Heck no. If a receiver make a haphazard, unaggressive attempt to catch an underthrow and allows the DB a chance to play it despite the receiver following it for 15-20 yards, his arse is getting chewed out.

 

Perhaps you should read more before throwing out your little jabs as I've said numerous times Tannehill needs to ultimately make that throw. My argument isn't about Tannehill's pass; it's about Hartline's ability (or lack there of downfield), so you having a problem with argument is pretty much insinuating you're satisfied with Hartline as our primary receiver.

 

Get off your smug, pompous high horse. I've provided twice the amount objective, unbiased stats.... yet you ignore them over and over and over again. Hartline is a Dolphin, not a Jet, so I have no reason to be biased, especially when I've repeatedly endorsed him when it doesn't entail being our starting flanker. If anyone has a reason to be biased, it's YOU considering he is a Dolphin and you're a Dolphins fan. I simply choose to NOT let that cloud my judgment b/c only a foolish thinking person would believe one of the league's worst starting receiver duos is one of the better in the league or even above average for that matter.


Let's restart with this easy one and then move on from there: 3 TOUCHDOWNS in 3 YEARS (despite the NFL being a passing league with rules shifted to favor the receiver). Either explain how that is above average or STHU.

 

Why you love to humor yourself is beyond me.

 

Right,and we had above average QB`s throwing him the ball the last three years also.

Ted Ginn could fly,how many T.D.`s did he have when he was here?

 

I'll just STHU.

 

Shou, when you're done answering the previous question, won't you be a darling and give us your definition of "Consistency".... or you can copy and past if you prefer.

 

Excuse-making at its finest. Cecil Shorts has more TDs with Henne in the past 3 weeks than Hartline did in 2 years. Nice try there buddy. Your logic fails. If anything it would support a notion that Hartline held Henne back, not the other way around.

Comparing Hartline to Ginn now? Thank you?

 

I'm just shutting THU, remember?

 

You call that an excuse yet you are making the same excuse for tanny.

 

That doesn't even make any sense. How am I doing that?

I'm not making any excuses for Tanny. He could've still thrown a better ball regardless of Hartline's lack of top end speed, but this thread is NOT about Tannehill; it's about "Comparing the Dolphins Starting WRs to the League's Best", which is exactly what I'm doing.... which, apparently, other posters are ignorantly turning into an argument about Tannehill not making a better throw. That's not the point. The point is that we should want to be an improved team and have receivers who have an above average ability to make plays with the ball in the air (and in their hands). Period.

If you wanna place all the pressure on the QB then you're gonna lose b/c contenders have targets who make more plays for their QB. There's absolutely NO REASON to settle for mediocrity at starting WR when a vast amount of improvement could be had. It's like some posters foolishly believe if a QB doesn't have perfect placement downfield then he doesn't deserve those passes completed, which total bull****.

There simply should NOT be extra stress put on Tannehill to execute at an even higher level of downfield precision to atone for his receivers' lack of downfield ability. It's not like he's sucked on downfield accuracy. It's been impressive so far, so excuse the heck out of me for wanting improved talent at the position to where his occasional off target throws can still be completed.