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Curtis/Ace Per Head - The day the Flores/Grier Regime Died

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Still likes Flores and thinks he's the smallest part of the problem. He may not be the best thing 'since sliced bread' but whatever change comes you could do a lot worse than Flores.

    Grier might be the worst, though.

    Reiteration - At some point last year someone said Tua is starting without consulting Chan Gailey. In his opinion they didn't consult with Flores but told him to do it (based on comments from Flores suggesting he wouldn't want to start him). That's a major impact on Flores and the team, and on any coaches who might want to come here. "No one wants to come here. Nobody." We've got two OC's because no one wanted to come here. The 'den of snakes'. Gailey might not have been the best but he was well known and well respected and he was treated poorly, with 'no love'.

    The only way to clean up is Ross selling the team, and maybe, if we just ditch Grier and clean house.

    "If what I'm saying is true" then the coaching fraternity knows what happened. Coaches would talk to Gailey first and see what was going on. If Flores wasn't responsible then there's a chance with Flores remaining here. If Flores goes we head back to the drawing board. If Flores stayed and Grier etc. are cleared out, maybe good coaches can be brought in to work with Flores.

    Then - he goes on to look at the game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
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  2. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    I might owe Grier an apology on the Hunter Long pick.
    Just reviewing some of the discussion and if these guys are being honest, Long was a Flores pick...

    6:02:


    And Grier talks about BPA in drafting.

    And yet - how does BPA equate with the coach, or anyone else, drafting a player because he comes from Boston...?

    Also, 4:40+ "you can never have enough offensive linemen" - yet, they left decent OL on the board and took Hunter etc.
     
  3. Pennington's Limp Arm

    Pennington's Limp Arm Well-Known Member

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    Any defense of Flores is pure lunacy.

    1) His decision making is trash. Going for it on 4th down in OT yesterday. Running trash Malcolm Brown right up the middle behind the sorriest O line in the league. Has he not watched this offense play all season long? He costs us the game. Handing out wins to teams that haven’t won in 20+ games. Embarrassing.

    2) Everything was smooth sailing in Indy. Right until he allowed a 15 yard cross field screen pass to be thrown 6 YARDS DEEP in our own end zone. Easiest safety I’ve ever seen. Gave Indy life. They scored again off free kick. Who even has that call in their play book when backed up on your own goaline?? You can pinpoint that idiocy as the losing moment.

    3).Buffalo owns him. He can’t even come close to figuring out how to compete against the top dog in our division. In the most important game he coached here. They beat us by 40+ and played their backup QB for the 2nd half. In a game they didn’t even have to show up for. Buffalo and their core aren’t going anywhere. He has shown no indication he can game plan for that team. All our ****ty coaches in years past… say what you want, but we always gave New England our best shot !

    4) Has never had the team ready to play out of camp! Man can’t run a training camp. And that is proven now over 3 years. 0-6, then 2-4 and now 1-5. Never ready to compete ! You can’t throw away the first 6 games of a football season !! Keep in mind these same teams went 5-5, then 8-2 for a winning record to close the final 10 games. I’ll never forget his 1st game. Baltimore could have beaten us by 75 if they didn’t let up on him.

    5) Minkah Fitzpatrick. Flores is constantly let off the hook for this. He drove Fitzpatrick away. Made the situation untenable. A guy who was considered a character guy and team guy coming out of Alabama. And now loved by the Steelers as a leader.

    6) The coaching staff he put together is a group of no name hacks. Say what you want about people not wanting to coach for the organization. But if we keep Flores, there is no hope he is all of a sudden able to put together more coaching talent next year.

    7). Reports he lost the team a couple weeks ago. Sorry, you can’t fire all the players. No results and no respect in the locker room? What a mess.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
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  4. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I don't think he had anything to do with the Ryan Fitzpatrick betrayal. Flores clearly wanted him in there. We were rolling and chemistry was developing. Tua was always the future, everyone knew that, but 99% of the planet assumed it was Fitzs job for the year and that Tua should redshirt. Who made that call? This ultimately led to Gailey walking which was fine by me, but it also made other oc's leery of coming here. Again it's betrayal.

    Also, who made the call to ax Kyle Van Noy, Shaq Barrett, Flowers, and Ted Karras? These were vital pieces to our team. They were also key players that had helped New England win Super Bowls. I get that the young guys had to play, but it was a stupid decision to do this. I didn't like it at the time and I hate it now. Again, I don't see that as a Flores call. Once again, it's betrayal. You don't get rid of players that bust their asses all year long, make plays, show leadership, and remain productive as key players on winning teams! Who the hell is going to want to play here when that happens?

    As for the draft, it's too early to tell, I love Jaylen Waddle and Phillips, but Rashawn Slater or Penei Sewell, and Najee Harris were and should have been the picks. We totally screwed that up. I was pounding the table for both Sewell and Harris while others were doing the same with Pitts and Slater.

    This has to fall on Chris Grier right?
     
  5. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    The idea that it is all on Grier is just wishful thinking. Grier is the person who is in charge of finding and getting the players Flores wants. They make the decisions together.

    Too many people want to look at football as if it is a bunch of individuals. One of the reasons people look at the OC situation like it is actually that much different than the rest of the NFL. Yes, some OCs are probably more in charge of others, however, when it comes to putting together gameplans and running them they are collaborating. Just like when it comes to building the team.

    The idea that Flores didn't want to start Tua is just lunacy. He wanted to win this year. The best way to win this year is to start Tua last year. Fitz was not the future of the team and he was barely the present. His play was just hyperinflated by a few fans here, but he wasn't playing well. Heck, Dolphins only first down in the Jets game was when Tua was in during garbage time. Fitz will have a few great games but a lot of stinkers. I think Flores thought himself Belicheck and would start Tua for experience plus consistency and if he is struggling put in the gunslinger to change things up.

    I think it is mostly the coaching. Look at the offensive line. At one point Kindley, Jackson, Hunt all looked promising last year. This year all three look worse. Heck, Kindley looked like a future star until he got hurt last season and now he is struggling to even get on the field.

    While Jacoby Brissett isn't the best quarterback in the NFL, he has NEVER played as bad as he did in the first three quarters of Las Vegas and against the Colts. My Colts friend was baffled by how bad Brissett was playing.

    There is something fundamentally wrong with the coaching staff, and that falls on Flores.

    The question this offseason will be will Flores and the staff get to learn from this experience or be fired.
     
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  6. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's that simple. I've personally been in several leadership roles and I learned the hard way that if there's not open, honest communication, there's almost always a breakdown.

    The thing you have to realize is that the Fins organization is MASSIVE- each department has dozens of staff members and multiple executives. Everybody talks to everyone but also looks out for their department and themselves. And everyone has their own opinions. So it's never black and white on any pick- Grier wants this guy, Flores wants that guy so they discuss and make a pick. There's 100 more steps to get there with a huge organization.

    Some of this is 100% on Flores. Some of this is 100% on Grier. And some is on outside voices (other execs, the owner, etc). They all played a part in this and when things go wrong, everyone points fingers. So even internally, there's nobody saying it's 76% Grier, 21% Flores and the rest is everyone else. That equation doesn't exist. But when things go wrong, the person who is ultimately at fault is the big boss....the one with the final say. And we know that's Grier. So that's where you start reshaping the organization...even if it's realistically zero percent his fault. You do that because he's not the right leader to bring everyone together.

    Philbin was the perfect example. Great guy. Great coach. Great high moral character. But he was a hands-off leader and his department heads were making bad decisions, so he HAD TO go...it was 100% his fault for his leadership style.
     
  7. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I am just saying that it is a collaborative effort and some of the blame is on Flores as well. Flores made a lot of mistakes. I have zero doubt that Flores was at least part of the decision to get rid of the players that were let go this offseason. Especially Flowers as Miami is pretty much paying his salary to play for another team.

    yes, it starts at the top, however, with Head Coaches and General Managers it varies from team to team. Grier is a collaborator, that is known. Flores is very hands-on in scouting, that is known. It would be nearly impossible to dissect to see which is more responsible for the current state of the Dolphins.

    Myself, I put it on coaching because the play is sloppy. It is very sloppy. Like players are just making boneheaded plays they didn't make last year. Simple things are not being done. If players were playing well and still couldn't get the job done I would put that more on the acquisition of talent.
     
  8. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Well, some of that is known internally. Who was big on players like Iggy and Jackson? You start there because we absolutely couldn't miss on those picks- we gave away a Pro Bowler to make those selections. Ross should know who was leaning hard that way- was it only Grier, was it a team decision, or did Flores really push those names hard? Stuff like that is known internally.

    For the coaching angle, does Flores call the defensive plays directly? How much input does he give on offensive plays from down to down? Its important to understand all of that to know what has to change. Again though, I doubt the finger can be pointed at one person for 100% of the blame...but we have to figure a lot of that out to avoid making the same mistakes over and over again.

    I see this differently than you because even yesterday in that loss, I'd see one Dolphins player make contact on defense and then a half-dozen others swarming in. Flores hasn't lost the team and it's not for a lack of effort...we're playing hard. But somewhere in there we're giving up a huge run each week and several coverage breakdowns. I can't say if it's player or coaching, but Ross needs that answer to take next steps.

    The main thing I don't want to happen is we fire Flores, we fire Grier and just hire two more guys in their place without ever fully understanding where people went wrong. That's literally the definition of insanity- doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.

    We have to find some "whys" before moving on!
     
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  9. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    There's no question Flores is in large part to blame. He's the HC!! The guy has the power to hire/promote/demote/fire assistant coaches so if you in any way think we don't have good OCs or OL coaches (not sure how one could argue we've had good play calling on offense or we've had good OL coaches), well guess who is to blame for that? Yup, the guy who has the power to fix the problem but doesn't or can't.

    As far as "understanding" where precisely we went wrong, that's in general too complex to answer. Besides, we know too little from the outside, and the person best positioned to know all of this and fix the problem is Ross — the guy who really needs to be replaced.

    In any case, there are many examples of starting from a clean slate and having immediate success or success in short order. The Dolphins were the beneficiary of one of best such examples with Shula turning around a sorry franchise into a consistent winner from day one. So it's not like the strategy of blaming the guys at the top is wrong even without "understanding" precisely what the issue is. Blame/credit the people with the power to solve the problem. Keep it simple.
     
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  10. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know only thing I do know this sucks and feels like Groundhog Day. We are not going to get rid of Ross and we could have a owner much worse. The only option we have is to wait out the season and then cut ties to Grier because we ain’t going to get a OC and good coaches with the situation we’re in right now.
    Then Ross has to get lucky for the first time in his NFL career and get a good GM who has it all and hopefully he figures out what to do with this Everglades of a Organization.
    Or what could happen we start going on a roll starting against the Falcons and everything stays the same which shouldn’t change the point we won’t get no good coaches in the off-season unless maybe if Tua lights up the league, which I think is doubtful atm.
     
  11. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    lol if Tua does really well that's both good and bad. Good because we will have found a franchise QB, and bad because Grier is almost certainly not getting fired. Still, the good outweighs the bad in that case. He's the only remaining reason to watch so we'll see.
     
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  12. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    That‘s what I was trying to imply…
     
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  13. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    But he said he wouldn't be pressured by the media. Nobody should be drawing any conclusions about how he felt about starting Tua at that point.
     
  14. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    It's amazing how many people cannot comprehend that Flores quote from last year yet.
     
  15. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Oh and this regime is to cute from top to bottom. Always trying to outsmart everybody and everyone, if they picked the right players in draft and free agency we could be on to something but we didn’t, such a Lolphins thing to do. Hope this never ending story comes to an end somehow, funny thing is, got similar problems with my soccer team…Guess I just have to stick to the Heat and get back into my Panthers who look promising but it‘s sadly not the same…
     
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  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I don't want to fire Flores or Grier. I think winning in the NFL is hard and as long as people aren't stubborn. IMO, I think they should have one more year to fix their mistakes and learn.

    I think people are too fire happy.
     
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  17. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about us knowing what went wrong- that would be for Ross and the front office to figure out. I believe that it's critical to understand what happened though so they don't repeat the same mistakes all over again. And the reason I say that is because if we look at Sparano, Philbin and Gase, they all produced teams that were just below .500 across their seasons. Vastly different people- yet the same results.

    With Flores/Grier, they're actually behind those other coaches from gutting the roster in year 1. And I think everyone would admit that 5-11 season was impressive compared to where we started that year. We were historically bad and they got a bunch of kids to buy in and play great football. Last year- same thing. Great defense, great efforts. But what the heck is happening in 2021? The front office needs to figure out where that regression is coming from.

    Maybe it's just young linemen combined with injury combined with jettisoning too many veterans....maybe the answer is just that simple. But I feel like they have to find that answer before firing anyone and giving up on this roster. I agree with you that the problem is coaching (Flores) and overall talent (Grier), but we really don't have enough to have an opinion past that.
     
  18. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    The problem isn’t ROSS IMHO. Yes hes not helping but unless he is mandating who we are picking than the entire problem is Grier and Flores. THE GM builds the team if we lack talent then blame Grier. The Coach is supposed to hire competent coaches and coordinators. Flores has not been able to keep a system in place for more than a year. We have rotated both offensive and defensive coordinators and schemes every year he has been here so we have no consistency!

    We have no identity as a team what are we good at? Defense sucks we can’t atop the run or short passes AGAIN, Our OLINE has been terrible since Jesus walked the earth, and we still dont have a real running back last was Ricky Williams who wasn’t even a draft choice.

    Our Wideouts are mostly small and skinny with not muscle and get hurt every 2 games. So tell me where do we excel at any one part of our game? We have no idea what type of team we are building year to year.

    So unless ROSS is having any part of Day To Day then I’m blaming both Grier and Flores and both should be shown the door. Grier more so then Flores but I don’t like the caliber of coaches hes picking so he may need to go as well so we can get some college coach in here with an eye for talent.
     
  19. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Normally, I would agree with what you e said, there has been one constant with the mediocrity with our team for at least the last 14 years…and that’s Chris Grier. From Director of College Scouting to General Manager, the team that’s been assembled cia the draft or through free agency, this team has not had an identity during Grier’s tenure with the team.

    Offensively, when the Dolphins drafted Tannehill, did the Director of Scouting who has a large input to whom the GM drafts actually build an offensive line to protect Tannehill? Pounce is the only real name that comes to mind. Wide receivers? Devon Bess? Brian Hartline? The only running back we had was Jay Ajayi and that fiasco turned into a train wreck.

    Fast forward to the drafting of Tagovailoa and the same woes continue.

    Defensively, Jesus…hot and cold. Alonso, Fitzpatrick, Van Noy, Jones, Howard…so many others that our defense is as consistent as a bowel movement after a night of greasy Mexican food

    Flores I am willing to give that 4th year opportunity to, but Grier has got to go. Ross needs to use his head for something other than a hat rack and do whatever it takes to get a PROVEN GM and build this team with all of the elements to make us a COMPLETE team
     
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  20. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    PROVEN GMs fail all the time.
     
  21. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I would have to do some research but off the top of my head, Bill Polian proves that statement wrong. He built the Buffalo Bills that appeared in 4 straight Super Bowls AND built the Indianapolis Colts with Peyton Manning and company.
     
  22. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I mean, having Peyton Manning makes that job a lot more easier. Also, showing an exception doesn't negate the state that proven GM's can fail. Or, rather, they aren't guaranteed to succeed.
     
  23. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Manning was a great quarterback, no doubt about that but he was surrounded by the talent that made him great…Harrison, Stokely, Wayne, Faulk, James, etc…

    Polian assembled that talent as well as the talent in Buffalo back in the day with Kelly, Thomas, Ware, etc.
     
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