Custer and Little Bighorn

"BigDogsHunt wrote:

Custer did split his forces into 3, and that was after already being outnumbered by 5 to 1 at minimum. He also did have his personal writer with him (Kellogg) and WRITING these press clippings for his personal push toward the White House that led up to his restored/rebuilt/high profile in the press and ultimately the Little Big Horn battle.

Custer changed his strategy with dealing with the Indians - prior to this he and Benteen actually attempted to right the wrongs of the Agents and provide for treaties with the Indians - after he was censored and court-martialed for speaking out against the corrupt Indian Agents appointed by Grant and of which included Grant's brother and other senator's family members in good graces of the current administration. Ultimately, during Custer's stay in Washington for the censure proceedings, he was rebuffed by Grant for a face-to-face meeting and this is what many believe to be his tipping point of anger, and thus willingness to change his opinion of the Indians in order to raise his personal profile to claim the white house - as Custer felt a fellow officer (in Grant) should have met face to face with a fellow officer.

However, he was reinstated by a push from some Senators that opposed Grant under the caveat that he raise his profile and "lay waste to the savages". This lead to a major falling out with his two top officers Maj. Reno and Capt. Benten or Benteen (based on history books or improper spelling accounts). What's funny is Benteen and Reno's daughter had a relationship, And Reno a former Southern Officer of the Civil War, didnt like Benteen (a Northern Officer) or his favorable view of the Indians. It was Reno that wanted to harshly treat the Indians, ultimately, Reno switched his view toward that of Benteen and previously Custer, but then watched as Custer ended up being the far more angry aggressor toward Indians.

Custer also had a significant issue with dissertation by his troops (several which were shot on sight under these attempts to leave) which lowered moral, based on his actions of bring force upon all Indians including women and children and his personal WRITER would submit bogus stories excluding these items and sending them back East to the papers, etc. All in all, Custer did change his attitudes toward the Indian Nation for the worse, and that change led to errors of judgement and errors in tactics. Including Gen Terry's troops arriving late, and Custer declining assistance of extra battalion from Terry, etc. The "speculation" always has been that Custer wanted to be first on the scene to quell the uprising and reap all the HEADLINES his writer could craft up without it being a GROUP effort. It was EGO for sure in his push for the White House.

And not enough praise is afforded to the leadership and skill of Sitting Bull, Red Cloud, Crazy Horse, Gall, etc.

From what I've read, Reno served in a Pennsylvania regiment during the Civil War. Hence he was also with the Union, as was Benteen.
Where on earth did you come up with Benteen's name was actually spelled "Benten"? In all the books I've read on the subject I've never seen that. Can you supply some supporting evidence?
Reno never had a daughter. Only one son. So the suggestion Benteen had a relationship with Reno's daughter is not possible.

Terry arrived on schedule. Custer pushed his men and their horses with little rest to arrive early and reap the glory for himself. Had Benteen been head of the 7th Cav, there would be no story in the history books about Benteen's Last Stand.

Red Cloud wasn't at the Battle of the Little Bighorn.

"MrClean wrote:

From what I've read, Reno served in a Pennsylvania regiment during the Civil War. Hence he was also with the Union, as was Benteen.
Where on earth did you come up with Benteen's name was actually spelled "Benten"? In all the books I've read on the subject I've never seen that. Can you supply some supporting evidence?
Reno never had a daughter. Only one son. So the suggestion Benteen had a relationship with Reno's daughter is not possible.

Terry arrived on schedule. Custer pushed his men and their horses with little rest to arrive early and reap the glory for himself. Had Benteen been head of the 7th Cav, there would be no story in the history books about Benteen's Last Stand.

Red Cloud wasn't at the Battle of the Little Bighorn.

Seems I was confusing my history with Fathers and Sons....

"Fred announced to his family one day that he planned to serve with the Union Army. His father, who was raised from stock that had remained loyal to the crown during the American Revolution, was steadfastly in support of the Confederacy. In an angry argument, the elder Benteen told his son that he hoped he was killed by the first bullet -- preferably fired by a Benteen fighting on the side of the south."
(http://www.franksrealm.com/Indians/cavalry/pages/cavalry-frederickwbenteen.htm)

Also, was confused on Red Cloud, thought I read something once, but believe I got confused over which member of family "In this notable battle {Little Big Horn}, Red Cloud did not participate in person, nor in the earlier one with Crook upon the Little Rosebud, but he had a son in both fights." (http://siouxme.com/redcloud.html)

P.S. Hollywood changed Benteen to Benton on occasion, a fun little snipet movie is http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/76924/The-Great-Sioux-Massacre/ where Benten was used. It also took liberties on Reno's daughter spin, I saw it many moons ago, never double checked history books on it and "a daughter" always stuck with me it seems.

Brief SynopsisGeneral Custer's fight to win equal rights for Native Americans leads to his undoing.
A United States Army disciplinary court charges Major Reno with responsibility for the slaughter at Custer's Last Stand. Captain Benton takes the stand to refute the charges against Reno and take the blame for the Sioux massacre of cavalry troops headed by Col. George Armstrong Custer. He relates the situations that led Custer and his men to slaughter on the banks of the Little Big Horn River. Captain Benton joins Custer's staff because they both believe that the Indians should receive fair treatment from the United States Government. Soon Benton meets Major Reno's daughter Caroline, and they fall in love. Colonel Custer accuses powerful government officials in Washington, D.C., of cheating the Indians through deals with corrupt Indian agents, and, as a result, he loses his command and lives in forced retirement. Sen. James Blaine approaches Custer and offers his reinstatement and a chance to become President of the United States if he will agree to oppress the Indians. Thinking he will become a public hero, Custer, accompanied by a reporter, compromises his principles and murders Indians at every chance. Encouraged by his ambitious wife, Libbie, Custer follows orders to lead his men into a great battle against the Sioux. When he and his forces reach the Little Big Horn River, the Indian units, led by Chiefs Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull, prove stronger. The Sioux kill Custer and massacre his soldiers. After Benton finishes the story, the military board decides that nothing amiss has occurred and ends the inquiry.

:up:

"BigDogsHunt wrote:

Seems I was confusing my history with Fathers and Sons....

"Fred announced to his family one day that he planned to serve with the Union Army. His father, who was raised from stock that had remained loyal to the crown during the American Revolution, was steadfastly in support of the Confederacy. In an angry argument, the elder Benteen told his son that he hoped he was killed by the first bullet -- preferably fired by a Benteen fighting on the side of the south."
(http://www.franksrealm.com/Indians/cavalry/pages/cavalry-frederickwbenteen.htm)

Also, was confused on Red Cloud, thought I read something once, but believe I got confused over which member of family "In this notable battle {Little Big Horn}, Red Cloud did not participate in person, nor in the earlier one with Crook upon the Little Rosebud, but he had a son in both fights." (http://siouxme.com/redcloud.html)

P.S. Hollywood changed Benteen to Benton on occasion, a fun little snipet movie is http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/76924/The-Great-Sioux-Massacre/ where Benten was used. It also took liberties on Reno's daughter spin, I saw it many moons ago, never double checked history books on it and "a daughter" always stuck with me it seems.

:up:

Hollywood taking liberties with history is nothing new. The only Custer movie I've seen that comes remotely close is Son of the Morning Star, which was based on Evan Connell's book of the same name. It is not widely considered one of the more accurate books on the Battle of the LBH.
IMO, if one wants to read an accurate unbiased account, then they should read either Troopers With Custer by EA Brininstool, or Custer in '76 by Walter Camp. I also feel the accounts written by survivors to be worthwhile reading. I Fought With Custer: The Story of Sergeant Windolph, by Charles Windolph and With Custer on the Little Bighorn by William O Taylor are both good reading. Windolph was part of H Company under Benteen, and Taylor was part of A Company under Reno. Windolph was the last surviving member of the 7th Cav as of June 25, 1876, to pass away.
Brininstool and Camp wrote their books relatively early and pretty well covered it. IMO, all the latter day books on the battle are just guys trying to make a buck or two by pouring the same wine into a different glass so to speak.

Red Cloud had a son named Jack who was at both battles you mention. He pretty much brought shame upon himself at the Rosebud battle. He was humiliated by his lack of bravery at the Rosebud and went into the 2nd battle feeling outcast by his fellow Sioux. I don't know yet if he acquitted himself in the 2nd battle. I am reading a book right now by David H Miller that gives the Indian's point of view and I have not gotten to that part. :)

Crazy Horse btw, was not officially a chief among the Sioux, according to Miller. He was however a real badass warrior who had significantly large group of braves that followed him into battles.
Learning a lot from Miller. I'd always thought Two Moon was the top Cheyenne Chief at the battle, but he was actually a sub chief and Miller named 2-3 others who were the ranking Cheyenne chiefs at that time.

Any additional updates on this. I love history and we are all learning that all of our history is not factual and some is actually changing. I, for one do not like Custer or his actions as a great leader never puts himself first and by all accounts it seems as though Custer was a very selfish person. I understand that he was not good at taking orders from his commanders and he thought that He was always right and could possibly do no wrong...well unfortunately for all of the enlisted men under him he did not listen to his scouts and he was Horribly wrong and hundreds of men paid with their lives for their loyalty to this POS ! The Indians made them all pay for his conceit as well as him breaking their treaty and turning his back on them !! What an ******* this guy was.

How did I miss this thread?

If you can ever go to the Little Bighorn Battlefield GO! I was driving across country and we only stopped to kill time but what a surreal visit, they have tombstones place where every fallen soldier died, on the Little Bighorn is a majority of the tombstones but as you look around you can see some more on another hill and a couple on a hill next to that one, its an amazing experience and it really gives you an idea of what they faced.

If you can go GO. I'm telling you.

"Fin4Ever wrote:

Any additional updates on this. I love history and we are all learning that all of our history is not factual and some is actually changing. I, for one do not like Custer or his actions as a great leader never puts himself first and by all accounts it seems as though Custer was a very selfish person. I understand that he was not good at taking orders from his commanders and he thought that He was always right and could possibly do no wrong...well unfortunately for all of the enlisted men under him he did not listen to his scouts and he was Horribly wrong and hundreds of men paid with their lives for their loyalty to this POS ! The Indians made them all pay for his conceit as well as him breaking their treaty and turning his back on them !! What an ******* this guy was.

I am not a fan of Custer the Indian fighter but after spending time at Gettysburg in 2013 I became a fan of Custer the Civil War Cavalry General. His leadership at East Cavalry field was remarkable.

"Fin4Ever wrote:

Any additional updates on this. I love history and we are all learning that all of our history is not factual and some is actually changing. I, for one do not like Custer or his actions as a great leader never puts himself first and by all accounts it seems as though Custer was a very selfish person. I understand that he was not good at taking orders from his commanders and he thought that He was always right and could possibly do no wrong...well unfortunately for all of the enlisted men under him he did not listen to his scouts and he was Horribly wrong and hundreds of men paid with their lives for their loyalty to this POS ! The Indians made them all pay for his conceit as well as him breaking their treaty and turning his back on them !! What an ******* this guy was.

Custer's main problem IMO, was his over confidence, supported by his huge ego. Up to that point, a Cavalry force the size of the 7th had not been defeated in battle by the Indians to Custer's knowledge. He did not know yet as I recall, that Crook took a whipping at the Rosebud. He was more concerned about scatteration as they termed it, and the Indians taking off in all directions and most of them escaping. That he could possibly lose the actual fight was not even something he considered going in. One of the last surviving 7th Cav members to see him alive, either Kanipe, Martin, or Peter Thompson, overhead him say upon sighting the camp from the ridge just above: "Hurrah boys, we've got them! We'll finish them up and then go home to our station." If that doesn't smack of overconfidence I don't what does.
Some folks fault Benteen and Reno for not coming to Custer's aid. I am not one of them. The Indians say the actual fight with Custer's force lasted as long as it takes a hungry man to eat a meal. (30 minutes or so?) Had Benteen and Reno came charging over there with their 6 companies, and Reno's 3 already depleted from his earlier frontal attack and subsequent retreat to so called Reno Hill, they'd have IMO been too late to save Custer and likely met the same fate.
Benteen was the most capable officer in the 7th at that time. Had he been in command of the entire 7th, I believe that today we would not be talking about Benteen's Last Stand.

Please forgive me Ohio for not joining you in celebrating his civil war record either...I am a 7th generation Florida " Cracker " My Great, Great.Uncle was the " King of the Crackers " and the original Florida Cowboy. The word and Trade Cowboy actually comes from Florida. My family has alot of history in the Sunshine State. Thanks for your reply.

Thank you also MrClean

"Fin4Ever wrote:

Thank you also MrClean

You are very welcome. I find the entire story of The Battle of the Little Bighorn fascinating. My post in this thread that IMO best covers what happened is post #10. Give that one a read if you have not yet.

"Fin4Ever wrote:

Please forgive me Ohio for not joining you in celebrating his civil war record either...I am a 7th generation Florida " Cracker " My Great, Great.Uncle was the " King of the Crackers " and the original Florida Cowboy. The word and Trade Cowboy actually comes from Florida. My family has alot of history in the Sunshine State. Thanks for your reply.

I understand. Do you have relatives who were with the Florida brigade at Gettysburg? Being the southern most unit of Pickett's charge they had an impossible task.

I had distant relatives in the Pennsylvania militia.

Yes I had family from both sides there

I will check out post 10 MrClean and read it! Thanks again and let's kick the Broncos arsenal on Sunday.

I don't know of my relatives from the Civil War era, though there should have been some. I only know that I am a direct descendant of Revolutionary War General, "Mad Anthony" Wayne. I'd love to find out if anyone between he and my maternal grandmother whose maiden name was Wayne, served in the military of the era between 1850s and 1880s.

Arse

"Fin4Ever wrote:

Arse

Huh??

"MrClean wrote:

I don't know of my relatives from the Civil War era, though there should have been some. I only know that I am a direct descendant of Revolutionary War General, "Mad Anthony" Wayne. I'd love to find out if anyone between he and my maternal grandmother whose maiden name was Wayne, served in the military of the era between 1850s and 1880s.

I have relatives that were in a N.C. Brigade during the Civil War and my County (in N.C.) where I live is named after Mad Anthony. Very small world.

"Ronnie Bass wrote:

How did I miss this thread?

If you can ever go to the Little Bighorn Battlefield GO! I was driving across country and we only stopped to kill time but what a surreal visit, they have tombstones place where every fallen soldier died, on the Little Bighorn is a majority of the tombstones but as you look around you can see some more on another hill and a couple on a hill next to that one, its an amazing experience and it really gives you an idea of what they faced.

If you can go GO. I'm telling you.

You should watch the History Detectives program on TLBL. It shows where they found cartriges, un-fired rounds and bodies.

Some of the graves are not in the right places but it shows the terrain and the gulleys very well.

Custer literally stuck his hand (unit) into a hornet's nest... that always sucks.