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Differences in coaching from last year to this year,

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Pauly, Aug 29, 2016.

  1. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    There isn't anyone calling for him to be replaced after his most disappointing season of his career. So i disagree with that.
     
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  2. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    It's true for
    down and distance
    quarter
    win probabilty

    I don't think it is necessarily the running early to set up the pass. I think it much more to do with how the defense splits its resources between pass and rush. In situations where the defense has more resources/attention dedicated to rushing then passing becomes more effective.

    If the opponent can stuff your run without shifting resources from their pass defense then rushing early doesn't help. But as we saw with Coyle's defense over the last 2 years if rushing can cause the defense to shift more resources to stopping the rush then the pass defense gets degraded.
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I do not believe you. And WADR, there is literally no reason to think what you're saying would happen is likely when there's years' worth of evidence on this board to the contrary.
     
  4. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Lets see...
    - Philbin was terrible
    - Lazor was terrible
    - WRs were terrible
    - playcalling was terrible
    - o-line was terrible
    - we lost our starting RB
    - our rushing percentage was wrong
    - QB couldn't audible
    - QB had to learn a new offense
    - Hickey was tasked with finding 5 new starters for the o-line

    So with all of that going against us how in the holy hell did we have the 8th ranked offense in 2014 (football outsiders)? The QBs of the offenses ranked ahead of us:
    Rodgers
    Roethlisberger
    Manning
    Romo
    Wilson
    Brees
    Brady

    All elite QBs. Mostly good coaches. So either Tannehill is super-elite but we just don't realize it or fans are exaggerating how bad all of those other things were. Hmmmmmm.
     
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  5. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    You'll see this year.

    I mean do you really think:

    - Philbin wasn't terrible
    - Lazor wasn't terrible
    - WRs weren't terrible his first two years
    - playcalling wasn't terrible
    - o-line wasn't terrible
    - we didn't loose our starting RB
    - our rushing percentage was right
    - QB could audible
    - QB didn't have learn a new offense
    - Hickey wasn't tasked with finding 5 new starters for the o-line
     
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  6. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Will be interesting to see how this is answered, or most likely ignored.
     
  7. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    To respond to these.
    Philbin: Had strengths and weaknesses. He wasn't all bad. He was good at preparation, lousy at making decision.
    Lazor: Had good schemes which contributed to the success of the offense. He had the tendency to get pass wacky when behind and our opponents were able to exploit these known tendencies as they became more familiar with them.
    WRs: we're pretty average in 2012 and 2013 but have been improving since then.
    Play calling: was good when we had a lead. Got far too predictable when we behind. This became much more of a problem after the wheels fell off the D in the last third of 2014 and we were playing many more snaps from behind.
    O-line: was good when Albert-Pouncey-James started.
    Injured starting RB: We did all right when the coaches bothered to call Lamar Miller's number. IMO this is more on the coaching than the personnel.
    Rushing% was wrong. In 2014 this was less of a problem because we weren't playing from behind so often. In 2015 abandoning the run whenever we were behind was a serious problem.
    QB couldn't audible: This isn't a problem if the OC is calling the right plays. When the OC's play calling tendencies are being exploited it is a serious problem.
    QB had to learn a new offense. There was a 4 to 6 game period of grace, for this, but no one brought that up after the Raiders game in London which showed he had a good understanding of it.
    Finding a new O-line. This isn't the issue. The issue was thinking that Dalas Thomas an d JohnnFox were part of the solution.

    There was no miracle in 2014. The easy explanation is that Lazor had a good scheme that was run proficiently for the most partin 2014. It came apart when the defensive shortcomings were exposed which then allowed opposing Ds to feast on Lazor's known tendencies, which Lazor did nothing to fix.

    The reasonable fans aren't exaggerating. They are assigning proportionate blame where it is appropriate to do so.
     
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  8. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    If Philbin was terrible wouldn't that have impacted Lazor? Why is it that terrible Philbin only affected Tannehill? Same for o-line and receivers, if they were terrible why does that only impact Tannehill but not Lazor? You know, both Lazor and Tannehill were 6-1 when Pouncey, Albert and James were all healthy. Both Lazor and Tannehill had to deal with Dallas Thomas.

    If you listen to fans everything we did was exactly wrong:
    "Philbin's defensive timeouts were just giving the other team a free timeout." The truth is we won almost every game when using them, and I'm sure they directly attributed to some wins. I still remember fans flipping out over using them at the end of the first half against New England. The result was because of those timeouts we had time to score a TD, which ended up being the difference in the game.
    "Philbin was Mr. Conservative." Football Outsiders studied how often coaches passed in the four minute drill and the truth is Philbin was the most aggressive coach in the league in that situation. Not one of the most, THE most aggressive. But all fans remember is that one time we ran and lost without a second to spare.
    "Our defense gives up a lot more leads late in the game than other teams" I haven't studied every team but if you just look at Seattle you would be shocked at how many leads their defense loses late in games. The perception of the Dolphin fan was we were the worst. The reality is we were as good or better than Seattle and probably no worse than average.
    "Wallace was a liability" Wallace was ranked 20th in 2014. The truth is every receiver ranked ahead of him playing without elite QBs were known as some of the best WRs in the league.

    Most fans have no clue on what good or bad playcalls are and only go by results. Most fans can't even begin to comprehend how go/go-go was actually unexploitable, which is contrary to what most fans believe. So I put no stock whatsoever in what fans see with their "eyes." And the numbers on the 2014 squad speak for themselves. We were ranked 8th overall and the passing aspect was 11th.

    My take:
    Lazor did a lot right. But was a prick and not liked by the players. So average overall. I will be surprised if Gase ever gets the offense ranked as high as 8 though.

    Coyle was top 10 in scoring D his first two seasons which is no small accomplishment. His defense was very good with the lead, which happened far too infrequently. I give Coyle a bit of a pass because he was following Philbin's philosophy of putting a priority on stopping the pass first. Having said that Coyle had no interest in being the top dog which is a bit of a red flag. So average overall.

    Philbin had a lot of good ideas on paper but they didn't translate to football players. Go/go-go is fine if everybody understands it, but if even one player can't comprehend it then there is a chance that player will no longer be bought in. Stopping the pass and not worrying about the run would probably work great on a computer simulation or with robots. But there is something visceral in defenders that rushing yards allowed equates to losing. We blew the Jags out but after the game fans were depressed talking about how we were badly outcoached. I'll remind you: WE BLEW THEM OUT!! They were depressed because we gave up a lot of rushing yards. You have to believe some players on the team felt the same way. So on paper it was a good strategy. In reality its not going to work. Not in 2015 anyway, maybe in 2020 or 2025 unless the league does something to bring balance back.

    And lastly taking what the defense gives you as opposed to forcing balance. Thats a tried and true philosophy. But for it to work you need a QB that has a innate understanding of game theory, or won't be fooled into doing what the defense wants you to do on a consistent basis. That audible to a deep pass to Hartline in OT against the Jets when we were already in field goal range to win the game was a red flag. It was not smart. That situation calls for low risk, low reward type plays. So with a QB thats not smart and easily fooled like that what should you do as a coach? You probably should just run plays as called at least some of the time, if not all of the time just to make sure the defense can't dictate what you do. And thats what Lazor did. Or get a new QB, which is what Philbin wanted.

    So overall all of our coaches were average and destined to be fired, but the QB is average as well and we're probably in for a long boring ride with lots more excuse making on the horizon.
     
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  9. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    Well said!
     
  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    You seem to be focused solely around Lazor & Philbin. So let's tackle that.

    Its no secret I defended Philbin for a long time, then saw I was wrong, admitted it and changed my stance. Here's why I changed my stance:

    Philbin wouldn't adapt. He wouldn't adapt to his players. He wouldn't adapt to his opponents. I never felt like he was a wuss when it came to game time decisions. I feel like the GB timeout is overblown. I also thought the go/gogo was overblown as well. While its certainly bad to let the defense know what's coming, I don't believe there was enough time from saying go/gogo to the play starting that it actually mattered. Now if he was saying as he got to the center, then yes, major problem.

    I believe if you gave Philbin and Lazor the exact players they want and have no injuries, then they could win a lot of football.

    Unfortunately, that's not how **** works. No coach has the perfect situation. The mark of a coach is how they handle adversity. Philbin and Lazor failed that test miserably. They didn't adapt to the issues the team had, oline. They didn't adapt to their opponents. They stayed steadfast in their system and it cost the team wins and them jobs.
     
  11. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty confident you'll change your stance on Tannehill the second he's no longer on the team too.
     
  12. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    When he retires in 10 years?
     
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  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Wow way to douche.
     
  14. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Fin-D and Roy,

    To be honest after reading both of your posts you seem to agree a lot more than disagree when it comes to the previous coaching regime. You're both saying they were good in smooth waters but struggled when adversity struck.

    My take is that Lazor's offense was very effective when he wasn't trailing. It ran at the similar levels of efficiency when you look at the in game situations in 2014 and 2015. The biggest change was that the D was letting through more points in 2015 than in 2014. As for Coyle's Defense again it worked well when it was in a positive situation. Although I differ in where it went off the rails. When opponents worked out that the system couldn't stop the run without seriously degrading the pass defense they kept exploiting that weakness. I believe that weakness could have been covered with better talent at LB, but it's on the DC to adjust if the FO doesn't give him what his scheme needs.
     
  15. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent Club Member

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    Why is no one concerned about wrappers on the field this year? I feel like this is an area where we will see some serious regression.
     
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  16. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Um, I suggest you open your eyes a little more, because there have been plenty of people that have called for him to be replaced.
     
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  17. seekerone

    seekerone Member

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    Conspiracy? LOL - half kidding. It's like this team has been setup for failure every year since ?. Between this here and the "Go" - "Go Go" era and the constant hand tying of QBs from coaches. It's just basic stuff that guarantees the opposition gets an advantage. Hopefully this year we get to crawl out of the NFL sewer.
     
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  18. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    To be honest I thought that actually spoke well of his character. But maybe it's because in my industry (I'm a chef) it's that mind numbing attention to detail that gets you into le guide.
     
  19. Mrtree

    Mrtree Juan Huron's agent Club Member

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    If anything this was mind numbing attention to the wrong details. They aren't preparing lobster Thermidor out there. They are playing football.

    It was a great example of how Philbin was it of touch.
     
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  20. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    Are you seriously referencing something from RT's rookie season about 4 games in and saying that decision was a "red flag"? LOL
     
  21. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Yes it was a red flag. Red flag does not mean I'm 100% certain he will be a failure, its something to take note of and a bad sign. Game theory mistakes aren't always going to be as obvious as this one, and even this wouldn't have been obvious as Sherman was taking the blame until he told the media that Tannehill was the one that changed his call. These types of decisions lead to losses. So if you are losing a lot of close games and you have evidence that your QB is not good at making end game decisions then maybe those things are related.

    And the feet first slide a yard short of the first down against the Jets week 17 with everything on the line is another example. If thats not the time to go all-in then when is?
     
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  22. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I mean without getting into philosophies, schemes, strategies, etc., we simply just have more coaches. Like in numbers.
    At one point last year, we didn't have an HC/OC/DC. That's 3 less coaches than every other team.
     
  23. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yes, yes he is. Honestly, that is the kind of thing that has been happening since his rookie year, and is why I've been in so many arguments with people. People using ridiculous things as barometers for Tannehill, that they would never use for any other QB.
     
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  24. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    The QB doing something completely idiotic with the game on the line is a ridiculous observation?
     
  25. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Red flag is a term that comes from racing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_flags#Red_flag

    White Flag: Conditions are clear
    Yellow Flag: Proceed with caution
    Red Flag: Conditions are too dangerous to continue
    black Flag: A driver is called back to the pits, normally for a DQ.

    Perhaps you meant yellow flag?
     
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  26. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    I meant this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag_(idiom)

    I thought it was a pretty common saying. :confused2:
     
  27. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Maybe it depends on where you are. I spent a lot of time around some revheads when I was young.
     
  28. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    It's not really a term in racing, so to speak, but a signal to drivers.
     
  29. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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  30. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Ross made some interesting comments (paraphrasing):

    'Tannehill has the full support of his coach, he didn't have that in the past.'

    'Gase is going to be good, but it might take a while.'

    'I really believe in Gase and I'm going to give him time to be successful.'
     
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  31. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    He also said tannehill was one of the reasons he chose miami
     
  32. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    I rarely listen to what coaches say. We're never going to get candid reactions and how they really feel.

    Instead, we have to watch what we see on the field and I'm curious to see just how much the new staff trusts Tanny based on the playcalling.
     
  33. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Club Member

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    Thats about as strong and balanced as you'll see public support from an owner. Ross has gotten better as he's been around longer. I looks like he understands that the team won't be instantly better overnight and is ok with being patient.
     
  34. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Ross has always been patient. In fact, that was his biggest problem, not canning Philbin earlier and waiting for the guy to become someone he wasn't.

    Now.. couple patience with a better choice of a young HC and you have a winner. Of course we don't yet know what we have in Gase so be prepared!
     
  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Something Section126 and I were discussing last night...

    Every coach says they fit the scheme to the players. Every coach says they adjust for what everyone is good at. And to some degree I think they all do. But it's nice to see that when Adam Gase says that, he REALLY means it.

    He has made that clear the whole way, that his "system" is not dogmatic at all and he's just going to do what guys are comfortable with. I think perhaps the one area where that's not true is the OL, where he asks them to execute every kind of block and flip between different styles from play to play and drive to drive. But with the skill positions, it's pretty clear he really has designed things around the players. There are tons of little signs of this. He gets shotgun snaps to Brandon Doughty, who was a shotgun/pistol quarterback in college. Most every run you saw for Kenyan Drake last night was to the outside, and he also played to Kenyan's strength in the passing game. Several times now we've seen him calling roll-outs for Zach Dysert who is clearly very comfortable with them. He has, for the most part, kept the lid on some of that stuff for Tannehill, but that's about gamesmanship. Look at the routes he's got Kenny Stills running, and how well they play off his speed. And Stills seems to love them, because he's a fast/quick receiver and loves to use that to his advantage, doesn't much like physical situations. So you see routes where he takes advantage of the respect a defender shows for his speed by throttling down, or turning a speed-out into wheel route, etc. When Arian Foster was getting the ball, zone plays. He's done a lot of stuff with Jordan Cameron that clearly is designed to use what Cameron is good at, though Cameron has disappointed a bit in the preseason games.

    Think about this. There are probably 13 players that regularly play in an NFL offense (QB, RB, RB, TE, TE, WR, WR, WR, LT, LG, C, RG, RT). We assume those guys this year will be Ryan Tannehill, Arian Foster, Jay Ajayi, Jordan Cameron, Dion Sims, Kenny Stills, Jarvis Landry, Devante Parker, Branden Albert, Laremy Tunsil, Mike Pouncey, Jermon Bushrod/Billy Turner/Dallas Thomas (looks like they'll rotate for now), and Ja'Wuan James. So we'll call that 15 players actually because of the RG rotation.

    Impressively, only 3 of the 15 players was not on the roster a year ago under previous head coach Joe Philbin. One of those newcomers (Tunsil) was the top draft pick, and it wasn't some draft pick that Gase insisted on. Another (Bushrod) is kind of a 1/3rd player right now since he'll be in rotation. And the other (Foster) is also in a rotation. If you figure an offensive season has maybe more or less 11,000 snaps, then about 85% of the snaps this year are set to be taken by holdovers from the previous staff. Considering Adam Gase is an offensive guy, and will in fact be the de facto offensive coordinator, that is REMARKABLE. This is not the makeover you usually see when a new staff comes in. It's a testament to how much he means it when he says he's going to form game plans around the combination of his own players and the opponent.
     
  36. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how many still feel this way but a lot felt that Gase would get a "free" year to evaluate Tannehill and would then get his own guy if he felt it was the right move. I always thought that Gase and Tannehill would be tied at the hip for as long as they are here, for better or for worse.
     
  37. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Ross said tannehill was one of the reasons gase chose Miami implying that gase liked what he saw in tannehill. If true, its possible that miami doesn't land gase if we had cut tannehill like some posters wanted
     
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  38. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I think most 1st time head coaching candidates aren't going to be extra picky. We cut Tannehill and maybe that makes another team more attractive, maybe not. I mean without Tannehill the new HC can choose the QB, so who knows.

    But in the end most 1st time head coaching candidates are looking to prove themselves as HC's so I don't think cutting Tannehill would've made much of a difference, especially to a guy that as CK says is demonstrating he is willing to adapt to players.
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I disagree.

    First of all, Gase had his pick of teams, so he could be picky. Secondly, he didn't leave after the interview, meaning there's things here that made him stay. Its not unreasonable to think one of those things is Thill. Its very likely, he saw how misused and handcuffed Thill was here and knew he could fix that and have success.
     
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  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I also disagree. Gase is a young hot prospect. He would have had a job in the next two years easily if he turned down the Dolphin job.
     

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