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Dion Jordan bust?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Aug 16, 2014.

  1. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    I'm thinking he should be at OLB like he played in college. Does he have trouble turning his hips or something? Seems he should have enough speed to cover TE's which is something our current ones are still having difficulty with. Plus we are deep on the DL. We don't really need him there.
     
  2. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    No, Dion Jordan isn't a bust. Dion Jordan is a victim of unrealistic expectations. As a prospect, Jordan was always meant to be a long-term investment. For Dion Jordan, the old "three year" rule regarding evaluations should be in full effect. But that doesn't make for a good headline and story. Doesn't sell ad revenue and doesn't generate discussion.

    Being drafted 3rd overall placed a tremendous amount of unfair expectations on Jordan. Dolphins fans watched Von Miller and Aldon Smith get drafted high and decided the only way for Jordan to live up to his draft placement was to be as dominant as those two were as rookies. That was NEVER going to happen for Dion Jordan. His shoulder injury, surgery, and four month recovery all but guaranteed a pseudo redshirt rookie season.

    Jordan 4 months recovering from his surgery cost him his rookie off-season and the opportunity to improve physically and mentally. Coming into the league, those were two attributes Jordan needed to improve upon at the next level. Early draft process, Jordan clocked in at 6'6," 226lbs... As a player, Jordan was a jack of all trades, master of nothing. At Oregon, he showed intelligence and athletic ability to play multiple positions with great success. His production relative to playing time was excellent despite never having a true position (and an injured shoulder).

    Coming into the NFL, Jordan had so little opportunity to get on the field and play, the Dolphins staff didn't know what they should do with him in 2013. All they seemed to know was, they had a physical specimen. He produced well enough and flashed major talent despite the off-season adversity. He played solid in coverage and was more efficient in rushing the passer than Vernon, who accumulated 11.5 sacks. That's the kind of special ability DJ has.

    Jordan's rookie season is irrelevant. 2014 is Jordan's real rookie season. He's had his first real off-season to improve himself physically and mentally. His first off-season in which the Miami Dolphins have given him real direction and purpose.


    No two players are the same. Still, Jason Taylor is a really strong comparison. Taylor and Jordan came into the NFL with strikingly similar builds (6'6" 230lbs). Both were making position transitions. Taylor needed time to evolve physically and mentally. Taylor made that transition into the NFL and his first three seasons combined for a total of 16.5 sacks (5, 9, 2.5). Eventually, Taylor went on to become complete defender and dominate NFL player for over a decade, accumulating 4x all-pro, 6x pro bowler, 1x DPOY, and earning a roster spot on the 00's all decade team.

    Dion Jordan is physical specimen in every way, intelligent, versatile, and was lauded for his leadership skills at Oregon. If we're patient with him and give him time and opportunity to evolve, he could become something special. He has the ability to be worth waiting for. Put it this way... Chip Kelly is still butt hurt Miami swooped in and took his prized bull from him.
     
  3. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Well I guess we will to wait until week 5 because of his suspension because now he lost a 1/4 of the season.
    I guess if he doesn't produce then we will here how the suspension caused his regression.
     
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  4. DixiesArcher

    DixiesArcher New Member

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    I think you got to wait at least until the end of this year before you declare him a bust.
     
  5. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    He's a feast or famine type player playing a feast or famine position, we'll need to see at least a 4 or 6 game window to get any idea on how the extra muscle affects his game and how much he's progressed in his second year.
     
  6. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Dion Jordan is walking the tight rope of "bust" territory. As a #3 pick, he needs to start producing. Not being be able to play in the first 4 games isn't a good start.
     
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  7. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Its no secret I hated the move to draft him to begin with because I thought Vernon was going to be the answer at DE.I thought we should have addressed ol.
    Don't get me wrong because most people do on this site but I hope I am wrong and he turns out to be a probowler but so far I have not seen anything close to be that type of player.
    Its early in the preseason but come on you were the 3rd player in the 2013 draft and you should be dominating the 2nd and 3rd string players.So us something!
     
  8. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I don't know where you have been reading that Jordan has been playing well in training camp. It is my understanding that he didn't play well at all last week against the Falcons and after a fast start in training camp, the coaches have been disappointed is his play in recent weeks.

    I just don't ever see him being the type player the Dolphins thought they were getting with the third pick in the 2013 draft. He may not end up being a complete bust, but I don't think he will be anything more than a very average DE in the NFL.

    Perhaps Hickey, who didn't draft Jordan, should check with the Eagles and see what they would be willing to give up in a trade for Jordan. I doubt if it would be much, but it might be worth listening to them if they still have any interest in trading for him.
     
  9. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    Its pretty comical when a fan gets a petition up and gets a shed load of votes when there are supposedly professional coaches and experts who are supposed to know their job regarding personnel , team, sport and expertise. So who is right? Its farcical at best, embarrassing if Jordan after 2 seasons shows limited reps and playing time because certain experts cannolt evaluate a players best position.
     
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  10. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    FinNasty is correct. Jordan has had positive comments through camp. Ive read them. It was early camp but FinNasty is correct.
     
  11. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    If Jordan turns out to be a stud, 4 games lost will be insignificant in the grand scheme of his career.

    Does that mean if Jordan doesn't have X number of sacks, X numbers of INTs, X number of forced fumbles, X number of tackles for loss in game 5, we'll have hear about him being a bust?
     
  12. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I should have said starting game 5 we will see.
     
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  13. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Yea its been the last 2 weeks when he disappeared.I guess the juice is wearing off.
     
  14. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Question for you clark.Do you think Jordan will be a stud?
     
  15. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Dion Jordan graded better in pass rushing efficiency in 2013 with virtually no off-season. That either speaks highly or Jordan or low of Vernon.

    Of course not. He had a limited off-season after surgery on top of being a rookie.


    He's learning full-time in a new position after his first real off-season. Growing pains are part of the game. Early days, my friend.
     
  16. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    Personally..Jordan screwed up by getting himself banned so im all in favor of seeing a player given his spot in pre-season by getting playing time at his expense. Sometimes a message needs to be sent. The same goes for Jones. Give Wilson time at Safety. Jones seeing reps a few days ago were wasted time.
     
  17. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    It's been reported that he's played well in camp. Then he got suspended. The attitude towards Jordan among the media (and fans too) changed. He struggled in a pre-season game. Now Armando is calling him out. The article he wrote sucked.

    And what type of player did the Miami Dolphins think they were getting with the third pick in the 2013 draft? For you not to see him becoming the type of player Miami envisioned, then you must know what they envisioned in the first place, right? I ask because by all appearances, Miami coaches had no game plan for him whatsoever in '13. And the Dolphins coaches never explicitly stated his role and played him at different positions w/different responsibilities. Given his off-season shoulder surgery recovery and limited pre-season, they never had the chance to give him real direction. He played sparingly as a result. But
    he did flash numerous times at every role given to him.

    Philly already tried that. Dolphins said no. And they said no for a reason. What has changed? 4 games suspension? Irrelevant. At 23 years old, with Jordan's potential, 4 games in the grand scheme is nothing.
     
  18. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Jordan did screw up. But giving someone else "his spot" to send a message is more about you being angry with him than it is about making an intelligent decision. Jordan already missed too much time in 2013. Making him miss more time doesn't help him as he makes a full-time position change. It's a terrible decision. And those reps w/Dion and Jones aren't wasted. They're suspended for 4 games, not 16. All reps matter, even if you don't start right away.
     
  19. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    If this was a track meet, most of the people in this thread would be DQ'ed for constantly leaving the blocks early.
     
  20. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Short version: Yes
    Long version: Yes, in time.

    Dion Jordan has been a "jack of all trades" player for a while now. In college and in his rookie season in Miami. At Oregon, Jordan lined up everywhere on defense in college. He played everywhere. His responsibilities ranged from putting his hand in the dirt and rushing the passer to covering slot receivers in man-to-man. His athleticism, intelligence, and instincts made him consistently successful at everything he did. On the flip side, he never mastered any one thing. He never truly dominated at any one thing, despite being very good and constantly successful. He never learned specialized technique.

    In college, pure talent can make you a stud. At the NFL level, you need to be technically efficient and consistent to be a star. Last year, we saw him lineup in multiple places, at multiple roles, with different responsibilities. He flashed the stud factor. His lack of technique, nuance, and overall rookieness caused inconsistency (along with missing 2013 off-season). In 2014, Jordan has just finally been given direction and purpose. He's primarily focused on being a defensive end. Jordan can focus and dedicate to mastering something. That takes time, reps, and experience. Look at Tannehill year 1 vs. year 2 to see the difference those things make. There's a learning curve. There will be growing pains. His physical ability could allow him opportunity to sidestep some of the growing pains, but not all of them.

    Lastly, Jordan is a rare athlete. He's not just some workout warrior who only shows up at the workouts. His athleticism shows up on tape in every way. Even if he doesn't become a stud DE and the next Jason Taylor, that wouldn't be the end of his road. His athletic ability translates all over the field. He could still transition to Joker LB later in his career, and his experiences rushing the passer in 2014 could serve him well into the future and become Julian Peterson... If we ever switched back to a 3-4, he could play OLB, easily... He has almost unlimited potential as an athlete. And by all accounts, he's very smart, a hard worker, and was a great leader.
     
  21. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I would have to envision that the Dolphins expected far more from Jordan than they have seen so far. They switched places in the first round and also gave up a second round pick to the Raiders to be able to select him. When you give up that much for a player, you have to expect him to be able to come in and have an immediate impact. The Dolphins certainly don't have enough talent on their roster that they can afford to give up a second round pick on a player who was injured and made only a few plays during the season, once he recovered from his injury.

    I get it that you think he is going to be worth what the Dolphins gave up to draft him. I just disagree and I don't think he will ever be more than a mediocre DE in the NFL. Certainly I hope I am wrong about him, because I would love to see him become the dominant player he was projected to be when the Dolphins drafted him.

    I now live in Hawaii, so I have no idea what Armando said in his article about Jordan or even when he made the comments about Jordan you are referring to. I just haven't been impressed by Jordan in his time with the Dolphins and I expected far more from a player who was the top defensive player taken in last years draft.

    I just wonder if so many people would be so quick to come to his defense if he had been playing at the same level he has and wasn't such a high draft pick. I think many people on here would probably consider him more of what he really appears to be, in that case. A player who is weak against the run and is able to apply pressure on the QB every once in a while. We have late round defensive linemen who also get pressure on the QB every once in a while, and no one is expecting them to be anything more than what they have shown so far.

    I'm not sure why the Dolphins said no to the Eagles. You say a four game suspension is irrelevant. Perhaps it would be for a player who has already shown that he can be a very productive player in the NFL. Jordan has yet to show this. I guess when he comes back from this suspension and is only a mediocre player, we will then be told that we have to wait until next year to see if he can develop into the player we expected when he was drafted.

    I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now, since it is obvious he will be part of the 53 man roster once his suspension is over. I just expect him to come in and have a big impact over the last 12 games of the season, or else the Dolphins have to look at seeing what they can get for him once the season is over. The longer he continues to play at a subpar level, the less he will be worth if the Dolphins do decide to trade him after this season.

    Right now, I think Jordan has a far better chance to be the next Aaron Curry, than the next Jason Taylor.
     
  22. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    If this were a parking lot most of the people would get a handicap sticker. I'm hoping for a winning season so that the trolls and bafoons crawl back to their holes or at the very least get drowned out by the normal posters.
     
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  23. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    When you draft a player that high and at a position that doesn't require as much time to fit into as offensive line or QB, you expect some immediate results. By that criteria, he's been disappointing. He may develop into a superstar, but he's apparently not there yet.
     
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  24. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Besides not being on the field for 4 games?
     
  25. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    The Dolphins knew about Dion Jordan's injury. They knew about his recovery timetable. They traded up and drafted him. Philly offered a 1st round pick and LB for Dion Jordan. Miami said no. I think you're projecting your disappointment towards Dion Jordan onto the coaches. As for the trade up itself, you don't draft players for a rookie season. You draft them for a career. That's why they're called prospects. You're projecting and drafting for the future.

    Then your expectations were misplaced. There was no way, given his injury, surgery, and recovery DJ was going to be ready to play at a high level. He was held back until he was healthy and had limited reps and opportunities. He couldn't even lift weights during that time.

    What made Jordan the most sought after defensive prospect in 2013 was his unbelievably high ceiling. Higher than anyone’s in the 2013 draft, by most accounts. As a joker LB, who essentially played 6 different positions at Oregon, fulfilling their numerous responsibilities at any given time, he was always considered a next level project. A jack of all trades, master of nothing. The project was deemed worthy by Miami (and Philly too, in addition to god knows how many other teams) given his freakish athleticism, skillset, intelligence, attitude, and character.

    If he were drafted later, he wouldn't have to deal with the unrealistic expectations given his circumstances as a rookie. Fans would still be excited about him given his future prospects and let him develop in peace. As oppose to trying to pass off Jordan's rookie season as his ceiling. Players with Dion Jordan’s physical gifts and skill set don’t come around often. Instead of whining about a B.S. rookie season, they would be saying "Give this kid a couple of seasons and he could tear this league up and become a monster."

    In theory, he would of had more sacks than OV if he started given the pass rushing efficiency ratings between the two. Yet OV gets all kinds of praise on these boards? Jordan isn’t a finished product yet. He’s a year removed from a rookie season in which he had virtually no off-season to improve. He needs to improve in all areas of his game, like any other 23 year old. What's so crazy about that? BTW, PFF graded Jordan out at -0.5 against the run. Slightly negative.

    As I already discussed in my OP, DJ’s rookie season was basically a redshirt year given his off-season inactivity.

    2014 is Jordan's first real off-season. First full training camp. First opportunity to seriously develop. And yet, you’ve clearly pre-determined that any development Jordan has to experience presently and in the future as an excuse. It’s pro bowl or bust, in your eyes.

    Dion Jordan needs to show consistent and tangible progress week to week, physically and mentally. If he does that, he’s on the right track and we go forward. If not, then we have a problem.

    No, you’re clearly not. You’ve applied an arbitrary standard of excellence on the basis that he’s a 3rd overall pick. You’ve ignored the context of his specific development issues and needs. You just wrote, “I guess when he comes back from this suspension and is only a mediocre player.” What part of that is giving him the benefit of the doubt?


    Dion needs to play well and develop consistently week to week in all phases of his game. Trading him would be dumb. But trading partners shouldn't be hard to find. Miami wouldn't have a hard time finding one if they didn’t see his potential (which they clearly do as they turned down Philly). Teams are generally interested in 23 year old, 6’6”, 250+lbs freakish athletes, who excel when playing in space, and simply need time to develop. Other franchises would be happy to try and pick out pocket for Dion Jordan.

    The longer he plays at a subpar level? Ridiculous. He’s played sparingly as a rookie following a limited off-season. As a rookie, he had better pass rushing efficiency numbers than Vernon. PFF graded him positive in coverage. The sample size you’re judging is too small to be definitively called “subpar,” Never mind “continues to be …” Dion Jordan flashed huge potential last year.

    Maybe he will… but as of today, you have nothing to support that argument other than speculation based on misinformation and bias. If you’re proved right in the long run, it’s akin to a broken clock being right twice a day.
     
  26. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    I did read an article where Dion seemed to have trouble getting off at the snap against ATL. There were also gifs to support it.

    He just seemed a 'tick' late, and it definitely affected his ability to get to the QB.
     
  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    that is not a serious issue
     
  28. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I think the "drug issue" comments are far overblown. I read an article the other day about NFL drug testing and they are literally 10x more strict than the Olympics, or 12x more strict than the military on what constitutes a failed drug test.

    With Jordan's case, he's a young guy that's expected to be the next Jason Taylor, and he spends a large part of his first season on injured reserve and playing only situational downs. He was flat out manhandled at times on the LOS so the team tells him to bulk up, and he spent the entire off-season working hard in the weight room. Now, unless you're a chemist, it is almost impossible to know about every trace element that's found in amino acids and all the bodybuilding supplements out there, and one of them had a chemical in it that the NFL doesn't allow.

    So this isn't a "drug addict" by any means or a guy who tried to take shortcuts- he worked his butt off this summer. He just happened to use a product that had something now allowed; it's not like he was taking major steroids or anything. He simply made a mistake while trying to live up to his potential.
     
  29. pmj

    pmj New Member

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    How the hell do you know what he took? The nfl can't say and he has every (and every other player caught) reason to say it was something innocuous like a "stimulant".
     
  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You have no clue what Dion took to get the suspension, and he and his trainers do have a clue of what is or isn't allowed..
     
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  31. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to get into specifics, but I have it on authority that it was a supplement for boosting workout recovery. I can't say any more than that though.
     
  32. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    Could you explain the bolded?

    Also, I read the NFL's list of banned substances. It's pretty cut and dry. There really is no excuse for players. Remember, the NFL and the NFLPA must agree on these things, so it has to be simple enough for anyone to understand. And it really is.

    We're talking about football players. Some of the "dumb jock" rules still apply....
     
  33. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Sure. Here are the list of banned substances- http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/Banned Substance List.pdf

    You'll notice that these aren't words like "soybean" or "molasses" that players could quickly identify; they're all five dollar words that nobody knows what the heck they are. Now, head over to your GNC store and start reading the label- there are 50 of those 5 dollar words in every container. So even though people think, "Oh, it's super easy to avoid stuff banned in the NFL," it's not quite that simple. In fact, it is very easy for someone in Jordan's position (who was told to bulk up) to overlook one of those fancy biology terms and think he's okay.

    Here's the other half of the coin though; the manufacturers of supplements don't have to put all the ingredients on the label, just like food suppliers don't. If there's trace elements in there, they don't have to be disclosed, and that's why the Olympics, police forces, college football and so many organizations are so much more lenient when it comes to drug testing. Also, you can see on the last page that medicines like Sudafed and Advil will cause you to fail drug tests in the NFL. Those ingredients are common in a variety of different supplements as "boosters", and it can easily sneak up on you.

    It is very possible for an athlete to fail when they were positive they'd pass...and it happens all the time to younger players trying to get big fast.
     
  34. pmj

    pmj New Member

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    Judging by his massive body difference I'll say steroids bc there is no legal supplement that does that.
     
  35. Lee2000

    Lee2000 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Jordan, the coaches, and the team have struggled with what to do with the situation. The four game suspension doesn't help. Let us see what develops in the next two weeks.
     
  36. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    Then, it's not his fault.
    Everyone knew last year Jordan's only saving grace was his impactful LB play. In spite of that, brass decided to make him into a lineman.
     
  37. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    All I really get from you is a lot of excuses as to why Jordan has failed to live up to expectations as the #1 defensive player taken in last years draft. Obviously you are willing to accept that the Dolphins wasted this pick on a player who may or may not eventually become a solid player in the NFL. I just think that when you have the third pick in the draft, you need to draft a player who can come in and make an impact from day one.

    You keep comparing him to Vernon. Vernon played well early last season, but he basically disappeared in the second half of the season. I think Vernon is an okay DE in the NFL, but he certainly isn't anything special. The fact Jordan continues to play 2nd string behind Vernon tells me a lot about how little confidence the coaches have in Jordan at this time.

    Of course you are going to tell me that the only reason Jordan is still 2nd string is because of his suspension. I wouldn't accept this explanation because even though I don't think Vernon is anything special as an NFL DE. I also think he is a better NFL DE than Jordan.

    Your analogy that if I am proven right about Jordan over the long run, somehow equate to a clock being right twice a day makes absolutely no sense. I am merely stating that I don't think Jordan will ever be better than an average DE in the NFL, and probably won't ever be that special player he was thought to be when we drafted him. There are a lot of average players in the NFL who have played for several years in the NFL.

    I guess what you find so hard to understand is that I have no problem with you expressing your point of view regarding Jordan or what you feel he might accomplish in his NFL career. I hope your right, but right now I just don't see it.

    I see an undersized DE who struggles in stopping the run. I agree he has the ability to be a good pass rusher, but I want to see a lot more consistency from him when he does get a chance to play.
    I have stated many times that I think he would be a much better outside LB in a 3-4 defense than a DE in a 4-3 defense. So my basic problem is the defense and position he is being forced to play with the Dolphins.

    I really don't understand why they would have drafted him to play DE at the NFL level, when he seems best suited to play LB. I think if he were traded to a team which plays a 3-4 defense and he played an outside LB position, he would have a much better chance reaching his potential than he has as a DE with the Dolphins.

    Maybe after Philbin and Coyle are repl;aced after this coming season, the next HC will hire a DC who runs a 3-4 defense and Jordan will have an opportunity to finally play the position he is best suited to play. I don't expect much from him as a DE this coming season, but perhaps a coaching change will do wonders for him. We shall see.
     
  38. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree with you one bit, but the problem with that is there's no guarantees these days. Two #1 overall picks from the past decade are no longer in the NFL, and that certainly makes teams nervous. While we definitely reached on Jordan, he was by far the most talented athlete on the board at that time. We just had several other glaring needs...which is why this was a poor choice.

    He's far from being a bust though; let's save that conversation for around week 8.
     
  39. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Ok fair enough.I hope your right but its just my opinion but I see a 6th round talent out of this guy.
     
  40. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I didn't see the game tonight but how did Jordan do?
     

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