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Discussion on what went wrong since the Shula/Marino days

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by RickyNeverInhaled, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Cam Cameron also had some bad luck. If memory serves me right, Miami lost 6 to 8 games by less than 6 points.

    Also, Dom Capers didn't hold his end of the bargain up in keeping the defense really good.
     
  2. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Yatil Green was just an unlucky break. He got hurt, twice. You can't really predict that. All indications were that he was going to be an elite WR.

    I don't really blame Shula as much as some of you. He loaded the team to try and win in what he knew were Marino's last few years and it didn't work out. Who knows, if not for arguably the worst PI call in the history of the NFL, maybe the Dolphins beat SD and luck out against San Fran in the Super Bowl.

    Other than that, every HC who bypassed drafting a QB high in the draft failed us. For all the talk of Jimmy wanting to replace Marino, which I don't doubt he did, he never actually made a serious bid to acquire his replacement. He probably could've gotten away with drafting one early but again, did not.

    Than Wanny, OH WANNY.

    Again, Saban forgoes drafting a QB and decides to go with the quick fix of Free Agency. We know how that turned out.

    Cam Cameron and Mueller realized Saban's mistake and admirably took a QB in the 2nd Round. Not sure if John Beck ever had a chance. I thought he had promise, but after getting torn apart Parcells came in and that was then end.

    AND SCENE

    Basically, not properly investing in the QB position is the main culprit for Miami's woes IMO. Too many quick fixes, WIN NOW moves and some downright bad luck (Brees lol).
     
  3. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

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    A persistent "win now" mentality during a developing culture of bail-and-flail: JJ bails-Wanny flails, Saban bails-management flails (and picks Cameron), grand poobah Parcells bails-Coach Meatball flails. There hasn't been development of the team's own acquisitions since JJ either.
     
  4. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Worst of all, Ross walked in to a steaming pile of poop
     
  5. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone agree that the mess this current regime walked into requires several years of fixing? If that is true wouldn't the best thing to do be to have the same GM and coach figure it out with the necessary amount of time to fix it? The thought of having the wrong GM and coach with that much time is a scary thought, but its better than giving a new GM and coach a shot at it every few years like we have been doing over the years. I would rather put faith in giving the same people the proper time to fix it as opposed to rebuilding every few years. Either that or fine the right person that doesn't want to clean house after a year.
     
  6. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Can you imagine if we had given Cam Cameron time to fix things, like we did Wanny? We wouldn't have any fans left today. Faith is one thing. Blindness is another. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and move on.

    Great thread, by the way.
     
  7. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    All I know is Wanny gave me a bad view of coaches with mustaches. Seriously. I'm watching my Canes vs Boston College last Saturday. Initial thought? "LOL Their coach has a mustache, he sucks"

    So irrational but its been planted into my mind. Mustache = BAD COACH
     
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  8. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    lol. Thats why i said giving the wrong people that much time is a scary thought. But i am kind of up and down about Ireland. I am pissed about him getting rid of talent with no immediate plans to replace that talent this year. He is putting faith in himself that he will make the right draft picks for next year. But he did what numerous people before him failed to do, draft a QB in the 1st round. He also put himself in a position to where he pretty much has to use a 1st round pick to draft a WR in next years draft. I definitely don't have faith in him finding the answer to that in free agency. I hope he doesn't think his talent evaulation is good enough to solve the WR problem in the mid to late rounds. He's done some good and some stupid moves. But i am willing to give him more time than a lot of fans would.
     
  9. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    lol. I saw his exact look alike in Atlanta a couple of years ago when the falcons kicked our butt. I even called him Wannstache and asked for his autograph, then said just kidding, i don't want your autograph because you ruined our team. lol. I knew it wasn't really him but i kid you not, looked just like him. He was a dolphins fan to.
     
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  10. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    I cannot even believe I am answering this post. Take Dan Marino away from Don Shula and know what ? People would be hammering like Sparanno got hammered.

    It was Dan Marino folks that made the machine roll. As I said, take him away and you have the Colts without Manning, no difference, none at all. Any coach that was in Miami while Marino was here would have been dubbed a " great coach " People fail to accept Shula was his own worst enemy in the end. He helped build a team with Marino and he also helped tear it apart. Like I said, no Marino, Shula was a so so coach.
     
  11. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Shula was a great coach before Marino. I wasn't old enough or even alive at some points to determine how well/poorly he handled personnel but as a coach Shula was/is a legend minus Marino.
     
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  12. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Er, no, he was not. Like I said, take away Marino and Shula is Tony Sparanno.
     
  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Wait...what?
     
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  14. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    No idea Sparano won two super bowls. Nor that he coached in many others. Also didn't realize Sparano was 185-70 between the years of 1963 and 1980 as a head coach in a time span mainly playing two less games.

    I must have missed that undefeated season Sparano had as well. Where the hell was I while all this was happening?
     
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  15. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    You are all living in a fantasy world. Look at the roster he inherited when he got here in 1970. He basically had to replace no one. People forget, FA did not start until 1978. LOL, the man was a good coach but he inherited a team where the players had no choice, they HAD to stay in Miami. Players did not have a choice of teams in FA until 1978.

    Like I said, good coach but he inherited a powerhouse loaded team and then in 1983 some kid from Pittsburgh got drafted named Dan Marino. End of fantasy.

    I seriously doubt if Shula was here in the enviroment that is in the NFL these days he would be another good coach, thats it. Of course if he had a Peyton Manning on his team he would then again be a great coach. Look at all the GREAT coaches. Its really funny they ALL HAD SUPER QBs working for them.

    Like I said, Colts were the team to beat, GREAT TEAM, GREAT COACH, GREAT ORGANIZATION. Then take Peyton Manning out of the equation ? LOL, team sucked, owner sucked, organization sucked and there were no changes outside of the fact Peyton Manning was not under center. The list goes on and on. Greatest show on Turf, Rams. Take Warner away and they sucked. Take Montanna or Young out of SF and they sucked. Warner Part Deux , They make it to the super bowl. Take Warner out of the equation WITH THE SAME EXACT PLAYERS ON OFFENSE WITHOUT WARNER and they sucked. Its not rocket science. Take Manning out of NY, they would suck. Take Brady out of NE, they would suck. Take Brees out of NO, they would suck. The list goes on and on and on and on.
     
  16. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    It was just an example of how fans get down on coaches. Shula did not have to deal with Free Agency until 1978. When that came about tell me how his teams did until Marino go there in 1983. It was just an example, perhaps a bad example but as bad as fans thought Sparanno was, they would have thought the same of Shula if he did not inherit a team that basically was loaded in 1970 and until 1978 the players had no choice and could not move due to FA was not here yet.
     
  17. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    You realize that as a coach the roster isn't his job? It's to motivate the team to play football and come up with a winning strategy. Which he did as well or better than any other coach in football BEFORE Marino.

    If you want to criticize his personnel decisions be my guest, but it takes nothing away from his COACHING ability. You could plop Sparano into the 1970's and he still wouldn't win a damn thing.
     
  18. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Well I have vivid memories. When Shula took over I was already home 2 years from Vietnam. The man inherited a powerhouse and yes, hemanaged it well but no, the players did not have the freedom to move from team to team. Big big BIG difference my friend when you can keep players for 5 6 8 years. BIG DIFFERENCE
     
  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    lol.

    Were there any great coaches left?

    Winningest coach of all time and to the point no one will catch him, but you say he sucks. You're high.
     
  20. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    1978: 11-5
    1979: 10-6
    1980: 8-8
    1981: 11-4-1

    Then a superbowl loss in 82. Looks like he did fine with free agency.
     
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  21. jboogie

    jboogie The sky is NOT falling!

    We better not have threads like this 3 years from now!
     
  22. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Actually Jimmy's mother died and apparently it hit him very hard. He quit that offseason.
     
  23. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Sparano didn't reverse that?
     
  24. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    No he just made me afraid of fat coaches. Imagine how confident I felt when I saw the BC coach was fat AND had a wann-stache
     
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  25. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    That is so wrong. And I suppose Shulas success before Marino was due to.. The coming of Marino casting an aura prior to his arrival?
     
  26. MAFishFan

    MAFishFan Team Tannehill

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    the whole "downfall" started with the Dolphins not drafting a servicable RB from 1984-1999. Plain and simple. Miami rested everything on Marino's arm. Which we all rememeber was fine from Labor Day until Halloween. Then it got cold and they couldn't run the ball. Never drafted a good corner until it was too late (Troy Vincent). Never had quick enough linebackers to handle Kenneth Davis and those godforsaken screen passes. It's a hige pile of stuff that lead to where Miami is now. Shula for the no RB/Secondary. It's Wanny for thinking he could Jay Fiedler his way to a title. It's always one or the other. Good defense and running game withno QB OR good QB, no defense or running game. It kills me to think of how much different those games in Buffalo could have been if they could have just run the damn ball. Ugh. I have a headache.
     
  27. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Our caoches, with the exception of JJ have not developed talent.

    Over the last 20 years who are the FAs that Miami developed who went on to sign major contracts with other clubs? Wes Welker is the only one I can recall and even then it is arguable that Wes Welker is a highly motivated individual who developed himself by hard work and the Miami clubhouse didn't recognise his ability.

    Wannstadt and Saban were by far the worst criminals in this regard. Cam Cam, I believe could have been a successful coach but the club house was divided Dom Capers, but in any event one dreadful season = no players developed. Tony Sparano's bright spot is Cam Wake, but like Welker it seems to me to be more of a case of a talented and motivated player making the most of an opportunity.
     
  28. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Club Member

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    I remember reading an article when I was in high school in the early 90s that said that without Shula and Marino, the Fins were a 6 win team every season instead of going 9-7/10-6 and competing for a playoff spot. At the time, I took deep offense, seeing it as an attack on the team as a whole. In reality, it was a comment to how good those two were on gameday, and how much they propped up a mediore (or worse) team through many seasons.

    As others have said, the moment that turned our history was when Jimmy's mom died. His passion failed, and he was done, even though he came back for that one last season. his defense was so epic that it withstood four more years being run by Wanny after he was gone. I think that had Jimmy been in charge to start the new Millenium after Marino retired, history would have likely been very different. If Wanny could have four winning seasons with Fiedler as QB, and add nothing of value to the roster during that time, what could JJ have done? The division was in flux. All the teams were competative, but none dominant. There was the chance to build without being beaten down by a superpower.

    One of the most telling stats of the Wanny era is that from 2000-2003, the Fins lost SEVEN different games where they took the lead into halftime, and failed to score a single offensive TD in the second half. Seven in three years! That speaks to Wanny idocy and reluctance to step on the other team's neck. And that stat doesnt even include the "nightmare in NYC" where they scored 7 points in the second half. Turn those seven games around? The team gets two first round bye's, three division titles, and makes the playoffs all four years. The Patriots dont make the playoffs the first four years of the Hoodie era, perhaps ending it before it begins.

    Everything since then is rubbish. The team has been crap since Wanny oversaw its decline, hitting bottom in 2004. Any sucess at all since then has been smoke in mirrors, including Saban's first season, and 2008. Whats in the future? Its blurry.
     
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  29. Adam Strange

    Adam Strange New Member

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    The problem with Saban wasn't just that he quit-- his personnel moves, both the draft and free agency, were horrid. The 2006 draft is one of the franchise's all-time worst easily. He is a great coach, without question, but he wasn't going to win a thing here with the players that he acquired.

    And I'll still take Don Shula's waning years over all of the crap that's come after him-- including JJ. Since Shula left, this team hasn't won more than 11 games in a season, hasn't won a divisional play-off game (in fact, they haven't even avoided getting blown out in the three divisional playoff games since 1995), hasn't even made an appearance in a conference championship. Why the hell should Shula be faulted for having Marino? He drafted him while plenty of other teams spent the next decade and a half kicking themselves for passing him up. Did he fail, at the end, to get to the Super Bowl? Of course. And he's still head and shoulders above anyone else who's tried to replace him.

    If Shula's failures at the end of his career merit him being made the scapegoat now, over 15 years later, for the sorry state of the franchise, then JJ, Wanny, Saban, Cameron, Parcells (and his lackey Sparano), Huizenga, and Ross deserve to be dragged out to the 50 yard line, tarred and feathered, and then used as tackling dummies.
     
  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Shula's isn't the scapegoat, he's the starting point. The decline could have been stopped anywhere down the line from that point, but it wasn't. But make no mistake, the nose pointed down when Shula became GM and its been a dive since.
     
  31. fin13

    fin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Shula's genius was always having great QBs, that is the one thing we haven't had since Marino went off into the sunset.
     
  32. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    it really wasn't.

    Jimmy built the shell of a team that Wanny grabbed, and organically grew into SUPER BOWL CONTENTION.

    let me say that again.

    SUPER BOWL CONTENTION.

    Wanny of course, missed the playoffs twice with that type of team.

    In Ricky Williams first two years here...the team boasted top 3 defenses and top 3 running games. They forced turnovers and took care of the ball. A formula for playoff success. The passing game never got improved enough. A smart GM/coach combo takes the team that Jimmy left, and contends for super bowls for the next 5 years.

    But of course..what can Trent Green do that Jay Fiedler can't?
     
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  33. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    Shula left us barren of talent and in cap hell. His last team was a joke that allowed 341 yard rushing in it's only playoff game. Glossing over Shula's legacy is a mistake. He left this team in TERRIBLE shape.

    You talk about Saban's drafts, go back and look at some the gems Shula came up with during his tenure. His 1995 draft might be the worst draft in team history. The only player worth a damn was cut. No one missed on more picks in the first three rounds than Shula did from 1984-1988. Players drafted during that time should have been CORE players until the mid-90's. Instead we had a gaping hole in talent for 5 years.

    Shula's horrific cap management cost us our two best defensive players at the time (Troy Vincent and Marco Coleman) because he left Jimmie Johnson a bloated, old and VERY expensive team.

    No one is saying he is THE scapegoat. I see people (like myself) saying he should not escape blame.

    Shula started the spiral. He left behind an old team barren of talent and in horrible cap shape.

    Jimmie took over that team. Built a very deep young defense but failed to address the offensive line and missed on his playmaker draft picks.

    Wannstedt took over a young, deep, cheap defensive team that had no quarterback and no talent on offense. He let all the depth walk, drafted HORRIBLY and never addressed the quarterback position (even though he had multiple chances).

    Saban took over an old, thin and talentless team. He got it younger, better and he attempted to address the quarterback situation. He picked the wrong guy. He left the team better than he found it.

    Cam Cameron should be ignored.

    The rest has yet to be written in my opinion.

    In my opinion, the single BIGGEST reason we are where we are right now is Wayne Huizenga. Like I said earlier in the thread, Dave Wannstedt should have been fired the MOMENT the 2002 season ended. I know it was a decade ago but we are still paying for that mistake to this day. Dave Wannstedt leaves behind a stench that takes at least a decade to get rid of.
     
  34. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    Matt Hasselbeck? Nah, we don't need him.

    Drew Brees? Nah, we need Jamar Fletcher even though we have the best corner tandem in football locked up to long term contracts.

    The piece of **** makes my blood boil and will for the rest of my days on this Earth. I don't "hate" many non criminal types, I LOATHE Wannstedt.
     
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  35. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    Has one of the themes of the thread revolved around bad drafting and trying for the quick fix?

    The first 9 years of drafting saw what as our best players?.... Chambers, Yeremiah Bell, Vernon Carey, Brandon Fields, Ronnie Brown, Soliai, and Randy McMichael?
    :pity:
     
  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    My lily white but exceptionally hairy *** we were contenders. How many playoff games did we win again during Jimmah/Wannidiot?
     
  37. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Shula was great when he had a great GM selecting the players for him. The best teams the Dolphins ever had were the teams of the early 1970's and those players were selected by, Joe Thomas. He was one of the best GM's of his era. As Shula got more and more involved in player selection over the years, the Dolphins continued to have more and more holes to fill.

    Shula was a tremendous HC and he was able to always get the best out of the players he had on his teams. Unfortunately he just wasn't able to translate his coaching ability over to his player personnel decisions on draft day. After Thomas and Bobby Beathard, the Dolphins relied more and more on Shula when it came to player personnel decisions and the fact is that he just wasn't good enough at it to rebuild the team completely during his last decade and a half with the Dolphins.

    Shula made a great decision to take Marino in 1983, but he had far too many bad decisions in the draft over the Marino years, which prevented the Dolphins from ever becoming a SB Champion during the Marino years.

    Jimmy Johnson was great at rebuilding the defense, but he never did anything to upgrade the offense. Marino and Johnson never got on the same page and the offense continued to decline as Marino aged and Johnson seemed more concerned with the defense.

    Dave Wannstedt inherited a team with a solid defense and no real answer at the QB position. Playing very conservatively, the Dolphins were able to play winning football during the first three years of the Wannstedt regime, but they were never able to compete effectively against the better teams in the playoffs. The drafts during the Wannstedt years were basically terrible and it was these drafts and the lack of quality players produced in these drafts, which led to the Dolphins going into the downward spiral they experienced during the Saban and Cameron regimes.

    Saban was in over his head as an NFL HC. I don't think he ever really wanted to be an NFL HC, but Huizenga just offered him a deal he couldn't turn down at the time. After two years and two very mediocre drafts , he returned to college, where he belonged all the time.

    Cameron was just a joke as the teams HC. The players never bought into what he was selling and he had very little talent to work with. The drafting of Ginn and , "his entire family", says all that needs to be said about the worst year in the life of Dolfans.

    The last five years under the. Parcells/Ireland regime, have been years where there have been many more misses than solid picks and signings in free agency.Therefore, after a winning season in 2008, the Dolphins have continued to decline over the last three years. Many people on here feel the Dolphins have plenty of talent and the problem with the team was completely the fault of Sparano and the coaching staff the last three seasons. We shall soon see about that, because in a little more then 18 hours, the regular season begins. We will soon see if coaching was the problem or the lack of talent is the real problem.

    Kick off at 1:00 pm Eastern time tomorrow.
     
  38. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    what happened to the phins has nothing to do with coaches or GM's. Miami had a perfect season... now they are cursed.
     
  39. Gunner

    Gunner Rock Hunter

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    Basically the way I feel. When you think about the men who were making decisions over the last couple decades, it really boggles the mind just how bad we've been

    Pornstache
    Saben
    Cameron
    Spielman

    Just that list alone makes me shudder
     
  40. Desides

    Desides Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The Wannstache teams were not Super Bowl contenders. No team with Jay Fiedler at QB can ever legitimately be described as a Super Bowl contender.
     
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