Or "Why Matt Roth is the key to our draft"
Last season the #1 overall came down to Jake Long, who was the favorite, or Chris Long, Tuna's "guy".
My memory is hazy but wasn't Chris slated to play LB?
Here is why this matters, last season was a rebuild season, we had many needs and few players to fit them so when the choice came down to Chris or Jake Long, a position was going to suffer and that was OutsideLinebacker.
Enter Matt Roth, who had a decent season, Roth won the job over Holiday, whose been released, but if we wanted Chris Long to play OLB, there is little chance that Roth "just so happened" to be on the roster and converted to a player the Front Office is completely happy with his play.
If Roth was just a one year fill in, then we go OLB to replace him, if not, we could go NT and Cb early.
So does anyone recall where Chris Long was going to play?
Page 1 of 2
-
-
He was supposed to move from DE to the strongside LB. With the comparisons to Mike Vrabel, there was even talk about him possibly being a candidate to slide inside.
padre31 likes this. -
That is what I thought Muck, the chances of Matt Roth being the perfect guy seem slim if they wanted C Long last year to do Roth's job.
-
I'm not sure you can make that assumption. There were many people that though Chris Long was the best player in the draft. That's why they would have taken him, not necessarily because they didn't believe in Roth. And while there was speculation he would have played the strong side there were others that thought he fit better on the weak side and would be Porter's eventual replacement. They also had no idea whether Roth would be able to play linebacker because at that point he was a DE. So, I really don't see how the fact that they liked Chris Long means Roth is just a stopgap.
-
He was supposed to move from DE to Sam, based on some of the opinions posted here. I do not recall Miami ever stating they would have done that, had they drafted him.
From my own point of view, I think I said I'd have played him at RDE. It was a topic that did not have a consensus though as I recall. -
Well, I do recall that both Holiday and Roth were put on the strongside in drills and both worked with the LB coach in Training Camp, Roth had not played standing up in 5 years when they worked him there.
That would mean that they made do with Roth because they couldn't really rely on him because he hadn't played in the NFL or anywhere since his Sophomore season as a Lb.
So he played all season, did "okay', the question then becomes will he improve, and if they believe that then there is no need to take a OLB early as there is no place for them to play unless it is just as a backup.
We are not talented enough to have our first round pick be simply a backup.ToddsPhins likes this. -
What I do recall is Chris Long was "plan B", we made Jake the offer and if he turned it down then C Long was going to be our guy, he was the player Tuna liked the most iirc.
It's odd to me looking at Matt Roth, the chances of him being the perfect fit at SOLB were slim indeed, yet at #32/#33 we went with Merling BEFORE Roth or Holiday tried out at SOLB in training camp.
And that also means there is -0- chance of siging JT, we won't move JP, and JT is not as stout as Roth is even, he can't play De in the 3-4 consistently so he can't fill Vonnie's shoes.ToddsPhins likes this. -
I think they went into the draft thinking that pass rush is a necessity....with the mindset that if Roth doesn't pan out, then we have his replacement...and if Roth does well then we have a guy to groom behind Joey since Porter didn't have the greatest 07 season entering last years draft.
Tuna probably knew prior to the draft that Merling had the frame and athleticism to either gain weight and play DE or trim down and move to OLB if they were unsure about Roth. It could be said that FO has confidence in Roth b/c Merling wasn't moved to OLB to compete with Matt. If this is the case, I could see nothing that Matt did last season to cause the FO to question their decision....therefore I don't see us taking one of the top OLB who falls unless they feel he can play equally well against the run as Roth, but better vs pass. If such a player doesn't exist, I could see them preferring a pass rush specialist in rounds 3-5....and possibly intensifying the pass rush from the Dline with Evander Hood, whom Padre and I greatly like. ;)
If we're looking at it from the perspective of having to beat the Pats, then I take Hood 1st to help shorten the time Brady has to pick us apart....then I'd take Dorell Scott to add pressure from NT.
IMO, Wake is here to groom for a year to replace Joey
Posted via Mobile Devicepadre31 likes this. -
The thing of that is, Merling was NOT known for his passrushing skills at Clemson, he was run stuffer who had good numbers physically.
His highest sack total in College was 7.
Or they could have Merling redux with a cat like Mike Johnson from GT, he has the same frame as well, but on the surface, why is Roth so replaceable?
SOLB pressure is rare, I reviewed the stats from Tuna's Giants teams, LT would have double digit sacks, Leonard Marshal would have 8-10 from the RDE, and the other guys would have 3 or 4 or so.
So maybe the idea that we "must" find a SOLB who can pass rush better then Roth is off base?
Hmm...my plan B theory is we take Hood, then take Corners with the thought being we try to eliminate the quick slants and three step drop/quick throws.
This could be a case of our Lb's are not as bad as "we' think, like the Cb's were not as bad as we thought last season, but we also did not press last year like I think we will this season.
Wake is Charlie Anderson's replacement until he proves otherwise.ToddsPhins likes this. -
Padre, I know what you're saying about Merling and only 7 sacks, but his stats are misleading. He was actually a great pass rusher. He's an ex TE who runs a 4.7 with great athleticism for his size. Don't forget I'm a Clemson fan. ;)
In his defense, he was only a Junior playing strongside....but he did have 21 QB hurries and created a ton of broken plays that don't show up in the stats column. He's a more athletic version of Dallas's Greg Ellis, so teams were looking at him with the potential to also play Hybrid. I personally wouldn't spend a 1st rounder on a similar player to Merling with the hopes of making an upgrade b/c Phillip might just end up making him his backup.
LOL.
Someone who is bigger and stronger than Merling to play on 1st/2nd downs and short yardage is a different story. 6'4 320 Dorell Scott could be that guy.
Posted via Mobile DeviceMrClean likes this. -
PS: I like plan B. ;)
IMO plan B's effectiveness would have to revolve around drafting Hood, Scott, and Casey (since we need an impact offensive player then fill in the rest with a DB who can play FS(or vice versa) like Sean Smith, Jairus Byrd, Sherrod Martin, Rashad Johnson, or Chris Clemons; an ultra quick CB to cover slot/Welker; and a pass rush specialist like Victor Butler. ????? -
He only started his senior year, otherwise he was a sub before that.
-
And he had an atrocious rep number on the bench press.
Point being, he will more then likely be our RDE, so that leaves Roth at SOLB.
Before this goes down the rabbit hole, did Roth impress enough to keep his job, and if so, were would a early round OLB play? If not, for what we ask of our SOLB do we need to use a high pick on basically a run stuffing OLB (which Roth does) who can also cover (which Roth really cannot) who also can rush the passer (which Roth is adequate at for a SOLB).
Keep in mind in a typical season, Carl Banks would have a handful of sacks, his highest number was...9...on a SB winning team, he did rack up tackles though, his best years over 100+ which is a massive amount for a SOLB.
Could be if we are looking to replace Roth (which I'm far from sold on) we may not need a 4.61/250 pd early pick to do so, if not, if we keep Roth, things clear up instantly.ToddsPhins likes this. -
after listening to Pasqualoni sing high praises of Roth not only in his first year, but projecting it into the future I think he stays. I might try and fing the quote.. be back...
edit; no joy, I can find players and Sparano archives but not any other coaches.. dang itFin-Omenal, ToddsPhins and padre31 like this. -
Padre, now that we're really digging into it, I feel it would be an impractical draft move to try and completely replace Roth unless FO feels the prospect can satisfy every aspect you mentioned. The only guy I see that as is Barwin. Thanks to Cushing and Mathews, I don't see that happening now. Ugggg!
Good point about LOLB sack totals. Roth's done nothing but improve so it's likely that with an improved DLine he will have at least 8 sacks next year, where as a 1st round rook might not see 8 sacks for a few years....after all, Matt was a dominant pass rusher at Iowa. IMO he has earned a shot to show us what he can do with 1 full year under his belt. -
Remains to be seen on Cushing and Matthews, IMO, wouldn't touch either with anything over the #57, that much weight gain is just fishy to me.
I'd be concerned that they would go Merriman on us, either one of them.
Hard to tell, Roth could improve, or the competition could see his numbers slide back a bit, his real problem is he is stiff as a board in coverage.
And the awesome thing is, less then three weeks, we all will know one way or another whether we keep Roth as a starter or spend picks on a "the next big thing #1 sure fire can't miss best prospect ever Linebacker":lol:ToddsPhins likes this. -
:up:
not sure I understand that.. it was his first year in the pro's at that position and he was one of the very best at setting the edge.. add that to his pressures and sacks and I thgink he did a pretty good job. I DO agree with you and look forward to see how his game improves with that first year under his belt. I would expect ol Fred Munster to play faster.. :up:padre31 likes this. -
I thought it was Herman Munster?:lol:
Let me say though, if we snag Hood, S Smith then Byrd I'd be happy happy on draft day.cnc66 likes this. -
Good catch. Sorry. I'm on an iPhone. That should be nothing BUT improve. ;)
-
I'd be very happy with that....as long as we can still squeeze in James Casey. I wouldn't mind if we went all defense with the draft as long as Casey is in there somewhere. ;)djphinfan likes this.
-
Padre, nice parallel with Cushing/Mathews to Merriman. I'd probably just avoid them like genital warts for nothing more than preventing any bad press or locker room tension. These kids are probably going to need shrinks for a while to deal with this huge turn around in their lives that I'd rather let someone else deal with. LOL.
-
Well, it's more that the NFL is much stricter then the NCAA, and these kids come to the NFL, drop taking the juice (a good thing IMO) and they disappear.
That and Merriman IMO, is somewhat fragile now, the genetics only allow so much muscle mass to be carried and these guys blow right past that natural limit.
If you ever meet 'ex' bodybuilders, you'll see what I mean, they are just worn out.ToddsPhins likes this. -
-
I totally know what you mean- I was a personal trainer in college. ;)
What you just said was the reason I was praying we didn't draft Gholston last year. ;)
Posted via Mobile DeviceFin-Omenal likes this. -
Hahaha. If he looks like a Herman and runs like a Herman....then he must be a duck. Or something like that :chuckle:
Posted via Mobile Device -
Matthews was 210 as a freshman, 4 years ago. Now he is 240. How is that fishy?
I don't know how much weight Cushing has gained since his freshman year, but since he was already playing regularly, it is safe to presume he has gained less in that time than Matthews has.
If these are the only two top players in this draft that you are going to worry are likely juicers, IMO, you are way off base. -
Yea, but dont worry they are not alone....there are a ton of other players who ust didnt get caught.
And like Ricky was the only guy in the league smoking weed, there are drugs at every level of major sports, its sad but a reality. -
Mathews- not so much. Cushing-totally!! I've been around roids enough to know what roid muscles look like, especially on a 22 year old.
For Mathews, 30-40 pounds of muscle is still a lot to gain. He has some of the water retention appearance to go with it, but I'll suspend verdict till I know more on Clay. ;)
Posted via Mobile Device -
I'm not worried about them juicing. I just care that they were caught and now bear the "scarlett letter".... only the S stands for steroids. LOL. I'd rather have a guy who can keep doing roids because he's not under scrutiny like Barwin ;)
Posted via Mobile Device -
The 166 is off. According to Clay Sr in a recent interview, Jr was 165 when he was a HS junior. Also according to Clay Jr in a recent radio interview, he was 210 as a freshman, and he said he has no idea where the 166 weight number came from.alen1 likes this.
-
The only part of Cushing that looks abnormally developed to me are his biceps. When he ran shirtless at the USC pro day while his body looked great, it did not scream steroids to me. I've been around weight lifting and bodybuilding for over 30 years, and I know for a fact one can have biceps like Cush has, without controlled substances.
-
Just a quick question, do you think it would be naive to believe that the use of substances such as steroids and HGH in college and pro football is NOT commonplace?
If I stated it would be naive to not believe their use is commonplace, would that make me arrogant?
Also, since the claim they tested pos was refuted, did they really get caught any more than perhaps guys like Maybin or Orakpo? -
Eh, it's rather unimportant to me, but I will point out that Merriman underwent a similar transformation once he reached the NFL.
As for either player and whether they would make great SOLB, reviewed Roth's stats from last year along with Vrabel and C. Banks, and on the surface he compares well with both of them, were he underperforms, and by a surprising amount, is Assisted Tackles, Vrabel and Banks typicall would have 30 assists normally much more then 30, a good year would be 50, Roth had 7 assisted tackles.
Does that mean we move him off of SOLB? Don't know, but that could be the issue, he's a straight ahead tackling machine of a OLB, his range is his problem.
A healthy groin and a year under his belt could make all the difference -
Roth was actually pretty decent rushing the passer last season.
With Wake signing and Charlie Anderson starting to perhaps show a little bit down the stretch, I think the larger issue is still middle pressure.
Roth is a lot like Baltimore's Jarrett Johnson.
Like Roth, he's a converted DE who sets the edge over on the strong side. Despite it being Roth's first year at LB, their 2008 stats are pretty much identical to one another.
Roth - 53 tackles....5 sacks...2 FF...4 PD
Johnson - 56 tackles...5 sacks...2 FF...3 PD
The major difference being the talent around them, as nearly everyone on the Baltimore defense is/was better than their counterpart in Miami.
We must get a better pass rush this season, and our LB play has to be better overall. But I'm not sure that 2-down Matt Roth is necessarily the weakest link.ToddsPhins and padre31 like this. -
Good points Muck, I'm postulating that perhaps Roth's relatively seamless transition to SOLB lowered the bar for Wake to play there?
Wake was a DE in the CFL who also played some Lb at PSU, it could be a case of "If Roth can do it, so should Wake, and if we bench Roth in favor of Wake if JP is injured this year, then Wake moves to WOLB and we reinsert Roth at SOLB"?
That situation could be were we draft a young OLB to provide the most competition into the mix.
Page 1 of 2