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Does mike Wallace have valid points?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Jun 6, 2014.

  1. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap20...llace-no-one-can-key-on-me-in-dolphins-attack

    Is putting the type of player on one side 90 percent of the time an injustice?, what is the mindset there by Sherman if it seems like by a lot of folks, not very smart.?..is it because Wallace isn't the most deft in Short areas?, is it more because he's just a deep threat one trick pony type, is it because he isn't the best route runner so lining him up on one side limits his route tree? is that the justification?

    Why does it benefit the skillset of a mike Wallace to move him around, why is he throwing jabs at Sherman? And is it justified?
     
  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Imo, if you are a threat that worries and engages a safety then it would behoove the coordinator to move the threat around..
     
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  3. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    I never had any respect for Mike Sherman because if you ask anyone who covered the big 12 they will tell you that Mike Sherman's offense was horrible while at Texas A&M . we were horrible last year because we couldn't run the ball nor could we pass the ball . I rather have Kippy Brown then Mike Sherman .

    I never understood why people were making excuses for guys like Sherman , it was just as bad when Dan Henning and Tony SPARANO were here.
     
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  4. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    Just remember that Philbin signed off on it as well, and was so reluctant to let Sherman go that he almost got canned himself.

    Still, Wallace has no excuse for his poor effort at times, and needs to do far less talking off the field and more time showing up on it.
     
  5. Deerless Dice

    Deerless Dice Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Mike Wallace saying he didn't know what was going on with the offense sounds like more of a strike against Wallace than Sherman.
     
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  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I hope the thread doesn't get off track, I'll reiterate, does lining up a receiver with this particular skillset not a smart move or is it justified on some level?

    What are the schematic principles in doing so?, and not doing so.? What are the positives ( if there is any), and consequences?
     
  7. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    If you don't mind, where is the evidence for this? I understand the idea that Sherman is his friend and helped get his career started and all that, but the statement that Philbin's would have been fired if he didn't can Sherman and that his hand was forced against his and Sherman's will?
     
  8. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    You're balancing everyone knowing where everyone is going to be versus some marginal gain you may get by moving a guy around and forcing the defense to adjust to his movement pre-snap.

    First off, if Mike Wallace is running routes from the slot then he's less of a vertical threat. That should be fairly easy to imagine given the placement of safeties common in the NFL. In the slot he's almost always got someone on top of him. It's why nickel/slot corners don't necessarily need to be 4.3 speedsters. They've almost always got help deep. So this whole thing about moving Wallace around isn't necessarily to help him get open deep.

    If he's moving from right side to left side it's fairly easy for the defense to make that adjustment as they keep their eyes on their assignments as they walk out of the huddle and get themselves lined up where they need to be. If the defense wants their best corner to be on Wallace they'll have him on Wallace regardless of right side or left side. And they could still be in zone, man, off-man, whatever.

    The downside of the movement is if you've got players (not unlike Wallace himself) who aren't the most savvy of creatures and they don't understand how either their placement or the placement of other players relative to them affects how they should be running their routes, then you run a risk of causing mass confusion...not just among the skill players but potentially also the quarterback. The defense isn't necessarily more prone to being confused, unless they have too complex a system of individual man matchup assignments going on. Otherwise the defense has their rules as far as spacing, alignment, etc. But the offense could end up confused and ineffective.

    The other downside is that the movement takes away from the pacing. If you're trying to be a real fast paced, HUNH kind of team then all that movement is just going to help the defense get their bearings before the snap. I believe this is why Joe Philbin himself stated that Miami doesn't want to engage a lot of movement.

    I think overall you look around the league and if you're deviating significantly from the rest of the league in some way it could be for good reasons (you've found something that works better) or for bad reasons (you've been left behind). Miami's stationary receivers system certainly was unusual relative to the rest of the league.

    But keeping receivers on one side or the other is not new. The Colts did it for the longest time with Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison, and they did it to great effect. The players got so good at the routes being run from their side, they ran the routes with precision, and Peyton knew exactly where they'd be and when in all situations.
     
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  9. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    I understand that you may not trust the source, but here's one source:

    https://twitter.com/ArmandoSalguero/statuses/420263168653656064
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    There have been several reports since then about Sherman still having a great relationship with Philbin and being really grateful for how hard Philbin went to bat for him.

    If left to his own devices, Philbin would not have fired Sherman. That isn't even something that should be considered up for debate.
     
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  11. evz

    evz Feral Druid Club Member

    Good to hear Mike. Now prove it...
     
  12. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    Wallace isn't without blame for last season, but you don't need to take his word for it to know that Sherman was completely devoid of creativity.
     
  13. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I think any system that makes Wallace feel more comfortable and excited about the offense, is going to be a good thing.

    Hard to know what he meant by "did not understand what was going on" - could be a number of things (Like, "I didn't know what that guy - OC - was trying to do with the offense and why he used me the way he did").

    I think WR's like Wallace (and many other prima donnas) need a good bit of coddling - whether you like that or not, it is what it is - and a sense that their coaches and teammates think they can be great and are used that way.

    Wallace made some big plays on crossing patterns in Pitt - and I think from the slot he has the potential to make some big plays on shorter passes. I doubt he plays all the time in the slot.

    Of course, if the other team is playing man-to-man, then he can do a simple cross with the outside WR (lots of teams do this with fast slot WRs) and take off down the side line on a deeper pass.

    I really don't care how they use him as long as he winds up with around 80 catches and 10+ TDs. :)
     
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  14. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    You're absolutely right about the crossing patterns and slants when he was with the Steelers. I really, really, couldn't figure out why we weren't doing that last season.
     
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  15. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    I'm glad Wallace has spoken up. He's either made a rod for his own back or he walk the walk and prove it. Over to him.
     
  16. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, Sherman wasn't fired the day after the season ended, and wasn't fired until after rampant rumors of Philbin being given an ultimatum. Who cares if Philbin was really at risk of being fired or not. The important and most salient fact is, Philbin didn't want to fire Sherman.
     
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  17. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    Andre Johnson - 1407 yds receiving
    This is where he lined up on all his targets:
    [​IMG] They moved him all over the field. Smart coaching.

    Pierre Garcon - 1346 yds receiving
    This is where he lined up for all his targets:
    [​IMG] They moved him all over the field. Smart coaching.

    T.Y. Hilton - 1083 yds
    This is where he lined up for all his targets:
    [​IMG] They moved him all over the field. Smart coaching.

    One of the main goals of an offensive coordinator is to find mismatches and take advantage. If you're just lining up your best weapon at 1 spot, you aren't taking full advantage of his skill set. Pierre Garcon is the example i like the most (they have pretty much the same skill set). That is how we should be utilizing Mike Wallace. Why keep letting the opposing defense put their best corner on our best WR? Wouldn't it make more sense to try to see if you can get Wallace matched up on their 2nd or 3rd best corner or a safety? The whole point of getting Mike Wallace in the first place was to put pressure on opposing defensive coordinators. How is lining him up in one spot making the defensive coordinator's job hard? Play cover-3 with the safety leaning to that side. Defensive coordinators were probably laughing when facing us.
     
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  18. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I thought I read somewhere this was because Harrison insisted, for the longest time, he line up on one side, and his coaches relented.

    It definitely worked. Definitely helped having one of the greatest QBs ever throwing to two of the greatest WRs.
     
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  19. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I read that as well. I think that Harrison was much more comfortable catching from one side, or over one shoulder.
     
  20. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    When you have two legitimate all time WRs, lining up on one side I guess doesn't affect you that much, especially with a GOAT QB tossing the ball.

    That said, when Harrison went down in 2007 the Colts moved Wayne around because now, he's the only ace WR left. They weren't able to key in on both Harrison and Wayne at the same time. But with Harrison out, Wayne could potentially be neutralized a little with personnel and scheme. Coincidentally Wayne went on to have his best season up to that point, and arguably his best overall. Factors that affected that is he was now the only #1 option, at the same time though there wasn't Harrison around to draw some attention away.

     
  21. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Fact is Wallace was an easy 1200 yard receiver and 10 td wr if Tannehill was more accurate. 1300 yards + if he could catch the ball and or fight for it. If that happened, he wouldn't be ****ting on Sherman. This new offense isn't suddenly going to make him better or more successful.
     
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  22. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    Seems like it is a twitter account linking to an article linking twitter'ers tweets. Whether I may not trust the source personally or not, which is irrelevant, the narrative is from Armando, who is rarely (if ever?) correct in his sources info. I do appreciate your response and reasoning for continuing such narrative, thank you.

    I find it interesting that there has been posts saying that Wallace WAS moved all over, and yet from the guys mouth he says he wasn't. We all know he is dainty, however that is another narrative that seems to find play.
     
  23. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wide receivers playing predominantly in one spot isn't some sort of unheard of, Stone Age foolishness. It happens, professionally and not even close to infrequently. It in itself shouldn't be a hinderance.

    Mike Wallace isn't suddenly going to be better because he goes in motion. If Lazor is going to install some of the motion patterns into formations like Bruce Arians did to get Wallace a clean release, that's a bit different- but that's above and beyond normal motion and the like.
     
  24. Killer Carlson

    Killer Carlson New Member

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    Yea, I don't see Hartline complaining that he played on the left side of the field. I wasn't a fan of Sherman but when a team brings in a supposed #1 and pays him a ton of money he should get it done on the outside or else maybe he wasn't worth it.
     
  25. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think anyone can reasonably claim that Sherman put Wallace in the best position to succeed, and I think very little of that has to do with where he was lined up. The offense itself wasn't situated very well to suit Wallace's strengths. His offense made it difficult to connect on deep passes, he rarely got him the ball in space on screens or drags, or end arounds. Wallace is not the type of WR that you just plug into any offense and he dominates. I know many will argue that he's overpaid then, but I still think he can be a very valuable asset if you use him the right way. His years in Pittsburgh were not a fluke.
     
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  26. Killer Carlson

    Killer Carlson New Member

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    His years in Pitt weren't a fluke, he has some serious speed but he also wasn't terribly poductive his final year and they let him go. I'm sure a lot of his separation came from Ben being able to hang in the pocket for long periods of time and improvise. Tannehill could barely take three steps before he had a pass rusher in his face.
     
  27. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would think getting him a free release so his speed can engage would be the sole purpose too move him around
     
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  28. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's about putting your players in a position to succeed really. Wallace, ain't the perfect receiver. What he has is world class speed though. So how do you maximize that? Well Philbin and Sherman didn't bother exploring that. Line him up on the right, let him run. He's not physical enough at the line, he's not the most precise runner. He is what he is, really fast with enough other ability to be dangerous *coughtedginn*

    We saw a HOF receiver, Harrison, insist he only line up on one side. We saw his fellow counterpart, no slouch himself, get ecstatic when he was moved around. I don't even know if they even put him in motion as I didn't see any tape.
     
  29. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Thats not a fact, its your opinion. Maybe Philbin didn't like the idea of his superiors taking away his control over his staff? You know, the control that was agreed upon when he was hired? Maybe Philbin almost quitting had more to do with Ireland not being fired, or maybe Ireland was the one ordering him to fire Sherman. Maybe the "firing" was a mutual agreement between Philbin and Sherman and would have came to pass eventually regardless of everything else. Who do you think would have leaked the fact that Philbin went to bat for Sherman? Probably Sherman himself right? Maybe it was just a ploy to try to make his friend (and himself) look good, but obviously backfired.

    None of this is fact, just my musings. The only "salient" fact is none of us has any real clue as to whats actually going on behind closed doors.
     
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  30. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. Sherman wasn't great but he was good enough to get Wallace in position to have 1100 yards, even with the worst o-line imaginable and missing his seam threat TE Keller and his starting slot reciever.

    But to be honest I think Wallace is just trying to be a good teammate in his own way when he disparages Sherman, its what Tannehill is thinking but would probably never say, and its a way of giving Lazor an "atta'boy."
     
  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Question..where are the percentages better for getting Wallace a free release, sticking him to one side 90 % of the time or moving him around at different spots?

    The free release should take priority I would think, because of the type of receiver your dealing with.
     
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    where did you read that Philbin almost quit?, does anyone believe that?, if so. This team will not be good this year.
     
  33. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I don't agree that a WR staying in one spot can't be a "hinderance".
    That's a very limited view because it does not take different issues into consideration.
    If moving your key players around so it gives less potential for opposing defenses to key on them was ineffective no one would do it.
    As a coach or coordinator you have to do things which maximize the roster you have.
    If you have a full arsenal of weapons then it may not be important at all to motion players to break keys off of them.
    If you have one real weapon that teams will focus on then it's a valid concern to do everything you can to mix it up with that player and not let a defense sit on them.

    Wallace's view is valid and you could say the exact damn thing for when Brandon Marshall was here.
     
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  34. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I think that you could argue that regularly getting Wallace a free release is the most important thing that Lazor can do this season. Scheme to get him in the best coverage, and then exploit that. Take a 10 yard crossing pattern 50 yards to the house. You don't have to throw the ball 40 yards in the air to let a fast WR make big plays.
     
  35. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I agree that Sherman was not an effective OC and should have been fired. Of course if it had been up to Philbin, Sherman would still be the OC of the Dolphins and not Lazor. That is why I feel Philbin is the real problem with this team. I have zero confidence in his ability as an NFL head coach.
     
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  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If indeed it is true, then it's weird as hell, but he got Lazor to come here so will have to see..
     
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  37. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Real problem is, will Wallace get alligator arms going across the middle and catching balls in the middle of the field and then jacked up.

    Remains to be seen tbh
     
  38. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    This is amazing. The FACT is that Sherman was let go, Philbin is still Head Coach with a GM he works well with, and Philbin hired a highly sought after Offensive Coordinator. Those are the facts. All the other stuff is a narrative that some choose to continue to fantasize in.
     
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  39. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Yup. Its funny some say its not even debatable that Sherman would still be here if Philbin had his way....uhhhhhh, yes it is debatable because we have the results right there in plain sight and the results are the opposite of your "facts."
     
  40. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Here is a fact. At the season ending press conference, this is what Philbin had to say:

    Sounds like a guy about to fire his mentor, right? Yeah right.
     

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