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Dolphins 2022 Offseason

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Mar 8, 2022.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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  2. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is my hope. I don't think the offensive linemen should have been as bad as they were last year. If half of the reports are true, the lack of a consistent vision was a huge problem with the offense.
     
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  4. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    I think it was mostly coaching. But the other major problem, IMO, is I think we may have drafted players with generally good NFL attributes but not necessarily attributes that are good for the schemes we ran. When you have guys bumping into each other, you may have a guy who's capable of zone blocking next to a guy built for a traditional scheme. If any of my suspicions is true, it's tantamount to malpractice on multiple levels. The best case scenario for us would be that we somehow accidentally have guys who can zone block.

    With that being said, if they can't zone block, maybe we can trade them for some ZBS capable players who are similarly miscast and in need of a change of scenery.
     
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  5. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I don't know if that is an exact problem. I think all linemen should at least look competent in the scheme. These are amazing athletes. Just some will look better in some schemes than others.

    What was terrible with the line was just how incompetent they looked and I have seen them all (other than Dieter) look better. I have been wanting Davis cut for three years now, (I don't need to see any statistics nonsense), I just don't think he is very good. Hate watching him on the field. I will admit that he has never looked as bad as he did last season.

    No one looked like they knew what they were doing and even when they did block well Gaskin would miss the hole.

    It was just terribleness last season.

    I am hoping that a lot of it was because of the turmoil behind the scenes, and having a consistent vision will at least allow a few of those players to be competent. I am done dreaming of a great offensive line. I just want a below average one at this point. One that isn't an embarrassment, because that is what we had under Flores.
     
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  6. Wilkimania

    Wilkimania Well-Known Member

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    Your comment on Davis looking the worst he did last season has been my issue with the O-Line and it's coaching. Nobody seems to be getting better. I'd be a lot less critical of the work that the O-Line had done last season if there had been any sort of vision or logic outside of well we need to have some guys play that position, lets just hope that they don't kill the QB.
     
  7. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Of course, the question I now have is that since we have four guys with two or fewer years of experience, have they developed bad habits that are going to be hard to break? Or even a cynicism toward coaching?

    My big concern with the coaches/GM believing that a new approach with the current players might pay off is the fact that for 20 years, we've been trying to field an OL that's sufficient and it hasn't worked. We should have been digging deeply to put a line together that was foundationally superior. If we don't invest in upgrades now, it just seems like more of the same.
     
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  8. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    This.

    It's hard to go from "historically bad" to "actually pretty decent" and we need at least that. At the least, we needed to sign some vets to short term deals and put young dudes on the bench to rebuild mechanics, learn and improve before we throw them back into the fire. This approach, barring a sudden delving into the FA pool/draft is just playing with fire.
     
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  9. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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  10. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Saw this on Reddit just now:

    Posted by
    u/hamhandling

    1 month ago

    How a weird Tom Cable technique left the Dolphins OTs playing with one arm figuratively tied behind their backs.

    A couple of months ago I came across this video of a former NFL OL by the name of Ray Roberts complaining about what Tom Cable's OL technique did to Duane Brown:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H96UR9W3IEk&t=487s

    I thought this sounded familiar- and was worth looking into, as Lemuel Jeanpierre both played and coached under Tom Cable for a number of years, and sure enough the film is littered with this stuff being used(and failing) the Dolphins OTs.

    What Roberts describes is a technique where the OTs are extending their inside arms(or even reaching out and touching) the Guards next to them, and how it can cause some serious problems- essentially the OT is playing one-handed on their initial contact with outside rushers. On top of that, they're leaving their chests wide open for bull rush techniques.

    If you look at the Dolphins this year, there's loads of blown block where you can see this backfiring...

    Liam Eichenberg gets knocked on his *** by Josh Uche because he gave his chest up:

    https://twitter.com/iambrianhines/status/1437172518092148741?s=20&t=wXrbL1--v-iTr1sZpom5WQ

    Jesse Davis jumps back off of the snap quickly in anticipation of the rush, but then has to fufil the technique and put his arm out on the OG and is left employing a dubious "hug" technique on Christian Barmore:

    https://twitter.com/ckparrot/status/1437457136074829828

    Jesse Davis playing to close to the OT gives him no chance to get the edge rusher on time:

    https://twitter.com/houtz/status/1447288771783823369?s=20&t=lhW1Zi655qErSQOOseTgiw

    Etc. and so on. There's loads and loads of stuff on tape here, where you've got guys who are either getting hammered because they're leaving their chests open, or because they're essentially late because they're trying to protect the inside.

    This stuff kind of works for Tom Cable... sometimes. But when it's really worked best is when he's got huge offensive tackles who have the size and strength to absorb what are essentially body blows on bullrushes, and have the reach and upper body strength allow them to recover once they've got their outside hand on a guy. Kolton Miller, Trent Brown, etc. On some level it makes sense- a lot of pass protection is just blocking inside-out, and building a wall that lets your QB step up in the pocket is as good a strategy as any than leaving your IOL on their own individual islands.

    Your 2021 linemen just couldn't do this. Liam Eichenberg and Jesse Davis are built like Guards, relatively light and short-armed. Austin Jackson is a mechanical mess, and really probably did not need to learn a weird technique that didn't fit him at all on top of it. You're kind of left wonder if Robert Hunt couldn't make it work better than what you had, but they insisted on him at Guard.

    IMO, I think this is certainly worth considering going forward when it comes to guys who are already on the roster, that you took a bunch of young OT's and gave them questionable instruction in blocking techniques that has a fairly checkered track record even at its best.
     
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  11. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Last edited: Mar 18, 2022
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  12. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  13. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Rumour:

     
  14. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Lot of people out there not happy with Grier again:


    And I get that, although things aren't finished yet with this off-season, so a bit premature to criticise him for this year's work.
     
  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Funny that this is wrong because the Browns did.
     
  16. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Its not premature because its gone on and on every year hes been here.

    are we going to say in March of 2023, 2024, 2025 that its premature to criticise him for the 2023, 2024, 2025 offseason because the offseason isnt over yet?

    thats what weve been doing with grier for however long hes been here.
     
  17. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    It's premature because he could still bring in a tackle and address other needs.
     
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  18. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    It is premature in that he COULD do those things, but it's not premature to vent or raise your eyebrow that he hasn't.

    Regardless of what some folks have been speculating and posting, our OL was historically bad last year. Historically. And while I do think and hope a scheme change and some better coaching can help, I don't think it will turn a historically bad offensive line into a good one. I don't think it will take 4 abysmal starters and one average one and make them good all in one offseason. And I don't want anything less than a good line in front of Tua this year so we can make a truly informed yea/nay on him.

    We HAVE the resources. The line was THE single biggest problem with the team last year, and it was across the board. Every one of them, including Hunt at times. To add one mid-range, penalty prone guard is simply not acceptable. And while there is still time, the clock is ticking and pieces are being removed from the board. It's time to stop being tepid about the line and fix this decades long problem.
     
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  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Yes it is. It is very premature. The big tackles haven't even signed with anyone yet.
     
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  20. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Including us. After the disaster that last year's line was, I don't think it's premature to think we should be acting with maybe a touch more urgency. I understand more than a few pieces remain, but we don't really seem to be pushing hard. When we put it in the context of just how bad we were last year, it makes waiting or being patient seem almost unwise. We may end up with our guys, but playing bathroom stall footsie just isn't appealing to us at this position right now.
     
  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    We don't know how hard anyone is pushing.
    All we have are rumors and hearsay.
     
  22. Wilkimania

    Wilkimania Well-Known Member

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    Ok let me ask this question, why would these elite lineman want to come to this team? Right now the perception of the Dolphins is a bottom third franchise and based off the results for the last couple of decades, that perception is well earned. So how do you attract lineman when you're not an attractive proposition? You have to overpay. So I guess my question is how much are you willing to overpay and who for?
     
  23. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I see Grier is as clueless as ever. Not willing to admit that he is absolutely terrible at drafting linemen.
     
  24. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Towards the end of both seasons, the protection was better. Not great, but there were some series where they strung 5-7 good downs together to have a long drive.

    Eichenberg has good fundamentals and good technique, but he was outclassed a lot last season. That's coaching.

    Hunt was solid the 2nd half of the year. His weaknesses appeared to be more scheme from the center and tackle. I think he's already where we need him to be after two seasons.

    Jackson- well, I can say that he fought hard all year. Technique wasn't there, lower body strength wasn't there, and he pretty much looked lost. No idea why he was starting, to be honest. But he showed a ton of heart and with the right coach, I don't know. Maybe he's salvageable. Maybe. He will move back to tackle or be 2nd string.

    The other two positions should be replaced via draft or free agency...plus we already grabbed a young stud left guard. So we might be looking for a left tackle to supplement Jackson and we should draft or trade for a center. I don't see anything that can't be fixed by competent coaching though- maybe Davis doesn't have the upside but he's not a bust either. He's average and good depth.

    The last thing to remember is that the line is dependent on each other to be successful. If the center messes up, then the guard is trying to cover since you always protect the A gap first. But that means the tackle also has to rotate in but there's a blitzing edge rusher, so you think the tackle completely choked...but he didn't. The center messed up, or the guard messed up, and that left the C gap wide open. Or maybe the RB is supposed to protect the weak side B gap but releases instead- that's not always evident on film because you have to look at what everyone is doing.

    Anyway, we have some talent there- it's not as bad as film makes it out to be because those concepts, formations and fundamentals weren't drilled down like they should be. I'm not in a panic over it at the moment because I think it's mostly fixable with 1 or 2 more guys and much better coaching. And I think we absolutely nailed the coaching side of things- best we've had in decades for line.
     
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  25. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I know I only played OG/C in high school and college, but I've never ever ever heard of this before. I did see both tackles extending their arms towards the guards next to them and thought it was awkward as can be...I had no clue they were taught to do that intentionally.

    Quick lesson. Linemen start in a 3 or 4 point stance. On a pass play, your first step is straight up or backwards at an angle to build the pocket. The faster the defender, the more you cheat back. But at the same time, you're staying low with your arms extended in front of you. Balance is EVERYTHING at this point- someone bigger or faster than you (or both) is about to punch you. That's best case scenario. Worst case, they grab your jersey with both hands and throw you to the side. The only things you have to stop that is (1) balance from squatting and chopping your feet....feet never stop and (2) deflecting that rusher so he can't get to your body.

    If he gets inside on you, it's over...just a law of physics. You can't take a 250 pound guy who's moving forward and redirect him with your elbows bent. You have zero leverage and it's game over.

    I mean, try this with your spouse. Don't worry about running or stances either...just walk for this. Have her try to push past you with both your arms extended as you bend your knees for balance. She's not going anywhere. Now have her try again with you using one arm. Unless you grab her clothes and grip, she's getting past you easily. She can just lean in any direction, your elbow bends, and it's over.

    So if you're telling me that our guards and tackles were taught to give up their biggest weapon every game (two extended arms) to reach inside and put yourself just a hair off-balance (your only other advantage), then I'll tell you that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. It's plain stupid and it honestly explains a lot.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
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  26. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    That's a contradictory statement. How could it be coaching if his technique and fundamentals were good? The problem I saw with Eichenberg is more physical. When I saw him get beat it was mostly him getting physically beaten one on one. He is athletically challenged and has slow feet for the tackle position. I see him being better in a move to guard.
     
  27. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    From what I saw, he looked the part and was moving correctly, good form on contact, getting in a position to win, etc. But he wasn't holding his blocks against some of the better DE's because he didn't have the positioning. Granted, this wasn't every play...it was 1 in 5 or 1 in 10...but he was still allowing pressure at a fairly regular clip. A lot of it was coachable- he'd cheat too much or he'd stay too close to the guard and have virtually no leverage on the outside rush. In other words, he was out of position and it was absolutely coachable.

    When Eichenberg was squared up on the defender, he generally won. With Jackson, it didn't matter, he generally lost regardless of what he did. Jackson was an absolute mess- I don't see anything redeeming (bad form, bad footwork, not enough strength to overcome). Eichenberg at least has the stance, the movement, and the techniques down pretty solid. For whatever reason though, Eichenberg beat himself a decent amount of time with that 1st step...he'd make the job harder on himself than it had to be since he was instantly out of position. And the only way to recover is freak agility (he doesn't have it) or freak strength (he doesn't have that either).

    That's fairly common with a stud linemen in college moving up to the pros- but the little cheat stuff they used to do doesn't work anymore against faster, stronger defenders. Against a big, bulky guy running a 6.3 forty, you can win with leverage alone- no problem. Those types aren't coming off the edge in the pros though and there's almost zero room for error.

    To be fair, I probably watch the offensive line 5x more than the average fan...but that's me watching a G/T combo on one side. So I definitely see more than the average person but at the same time, I might be watching 10% of any one lineman's total snaps. I haven't studied film in depth or anything to comment on 100% of any lineman's snaps, so I'm generalizing here. Jackson lost A LOT- probably 50% or more of his snaps I saw. Eichenberg was losing maybe 10-15% of his snaps. Night and day difference between the two.

    I think Jackson's bigger/stronger though and probably has more upside with good coaching- we don't know what he'd look like with proper form, footwork, etc. because we've never seen it. So maybe there's a chance he has a big turnaround this season? I'm not expecting it but who knows...he literally does everything wrong out there. Eichenberg is easier to gauge because he has 85% of his movements down pat; he just gets out of position sometimes. Eichenberg will figure that stuff out from experience and coaching, they're not huge fixes. Jackson though, I really have no idea.
     
  28. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    One more thing on linemen and then I'll shut up. I've said over and over again that you practice thousands of snaps per week so you don't have to think in the game. If you're trying to figure out coverage on the fly and trying to think your way through a block, you've already lost....it's impossible since positioning is won or lost in a split second. That could be the case with Jackson because he always seems a half-step or a full step behind; it could be as simple as he's thinking too much.

    Could that be coached out of him? I really don't know because I've never had a conversation with the guy. But that's always been in the back of my mind. I think that was the problem with Jonathan Martin as well, and he was a super smart dude, but he wasn't naturally violent and he was used to thinking his way through a problem. That doesn't work on the line at all- no time for thinking. It's all reaction and letting your fight training kick in.



    From this interview, he seems to be intelligent enough. But I also notice that he's thinking through his answers more than I'd like. So I don't know. If that is the problem then he might be a complete bust.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
  29. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    This is a reporter for USA Today. There's no reason to believe the Fins are of interest to Collins (or interested in him) beyond rumors. He met with the Bengals and most reports have them as the front runners for his services. If he takes a meeting with Miami, I think we'll get him.
     
  30. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of which:
     
  31. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
  32. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  33. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    yes for a proven offensive lineman like collins yep! We have been horrible for 15 years. Pay the man and lock down the oline and start to build around them!!!
     
  34. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Free agent offensive tackle Terron Armstead could be headed to Miami.

    Barry Jackson of the Miami Herald, citing two NFL sources, says the Dolphins are pursuing Armstead, and currently putting their pursuit of La'el Collins on hold.

    The 30-year-old Armstead has played his entire career with the Saints, who selected him in the third round of the 2013 NFL draft. He has been to three Pro Bowls and would give the Dolphins’ offensive line a big upgrade.
     
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  35. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Tua's trainer isn't impressed that Collins signed with Cinci.



     
  36. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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  37. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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  38. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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  39. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Reports have indicated Armstead's first choice was either return to N'Awlins or to join DeShaun Watson anywhere besides Cleveland, which can't afford him. Hopefully, he's not leveraging us to improve his bargaining position elsewhere.
     
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  40. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Powell, WY

    Given history, he probably is.
     
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