1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Dolphins get over the 85% goal

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Finatik, Jul 9, 2021.

  1. aesop

    aesop Well-Known Member

    2,145
    1,281
    113
    Nov 2, 2008
    NYC
    Not sure where the lie is. Nice try.

    Here, maybe this paper will help you understand where I am coming from regarding the same thing in reverse with me questioning the validity of every death associated with covid being ruled covid as primary cause of death:
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00086-7/fulltext
     
    resnor likes this.
  2. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    591
    450
    63
    Dec 29, 2013
    Right here

     
  3. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    10,747
    5,226
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Now you're getting silly. Orders of magnitude more will die unvaccinated. You had to know how absurd that argument was as you typed it.

    And, vaccine requirements are not new to the US and have been upheld by the Supreme Court. All 50 states have them for public schools.
     
  4. aesop

    aesop Well-Known Member

    2,145
    1,281
    113
    Nov 2, 2008
    NYC
    Which is accurate. There have been 12k reported deaths due to the vaccine. VAERS buddy. Check it out.
     
    resnor likes this.
  5. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    591
    450
    63
    Dec 29, 2013
    ‘Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. This is because the U.S. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after a COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause.

    Furthermore, a review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines, says the CDC.
     
  6. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member Club Member

    17,596
    10,532
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    This all seems pretty simple to me.

    It's possible you could suffer serious side effects from the vaccine.

    You also stand a higher chance of a more serious infection without the vaccine.

    It's extremely unlikely that the virus will be eradicted, it certainly won't be any time soon.

    You'll probably get it more than once.

    If you get the vaccine you'll still be at risk of catching it again but you will have a lower chance of serious symptoms.

    If you have the vaccine there's a reduced chance you will pass it on but you still could.

    No-one should be forced to have any medical treatment or procedure they don't want.

    The virus is no-one's fault (unless it was created in a lab) so you shouldn't go around blaming anyone else for it.

    If you want the vaccine, get it. If you don't, don't.

    Don't villainise anyone for either choice.
     
  7. cbrad

    cbrad .

    9,165
    10,809
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Need to change the language there. Saying "due to" generally means "caused by" which is inaccurate. Just say "12k reported deaths following vaccine administration".
     
    Fireland likes this.
  8. aesop

    aesop Well-Known Member

    2,145
    1,281
    113
    Nov 2, 2008
    NYC
    This is the exact argument I am making about every death being ruled as "caused by" covid.

    Do you people really not see the irony?
     
    resnor likes this.
  9. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member Club Member

    17,596
    10,532
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    As for the league, it should not be requiring anyone to get the vaccine. That's a medical matter and as such is private.

    The vaccine can't stop transmission, so the virus will spread. Players who want the benefits of the vaccine to protect them can have it. Those who see it as a risk shouldn't be forced to have it.
     
    resnor and aesop like this.
  10. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

    7,649
    4,304
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Slightly left of center
    That is an argument I can understand and if not agree with agree with your reasoning for you.
     
    resnor and aesop like this.
  11. cbrad

    cbrad .

    9,165
    10,809
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    The best way to deal with that is statistics on "excess deaths". That is, compare deaths due to any cause relative to the average from previous years. Clearly the main difference is COVID. For example:
    Screen Shot 2021-07-23 at 10.01.40 PM.png
     
  12. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    591
    450
    63
    Dec 29, 2013
    But if you think the deaths are dishonest why respond with more dishonesty?

    Why not be truthful here and say "I don't know how many of those deaths are caused by the vaccine or if any of them are but the number is big enough to give me pause"?
     
    Puka-head likes this.
  13. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

    7,649
    4,304
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Slightly left of center
    False equivalence. Not even close to the same thing. Forcing an injection is absolutely a violation of civil rights. It's not there yet but they are taking things off the table slowly and the rhetoric is only increasing. Did you watch Biden's CNN town hall the other night?

    Being asked to show proof of compliance with the entry requirements of a bar is the exact same thing as being asked to show proof of vaccination for entry into an airplane. You don't have to get a vaccine, you don't have to get on the airplane. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything against their will or in violation of their civil rights. If you want to enter an NFL locker room there are requirements. If you want to enter any private property they have the right to set the rules for that entry. No shirt No Shoes No service for example. Nobody is forcing anybody to wear a shirt. You just need one for service in this establishment. Don't want to wear a shirt, that's cool, but you can't do business in here without one on. It's the same thing.

    There's a federal mandate. You have to wear a mask on flights even though they have hepa filtration on board and there are zero mask mandates by states. Vaccine passports have been discussed in a bunch of states and federally, what seems unlikely today will most likely not be next year. Look how much has changed and how much people were willing to give up the past year.

    We were discussing vaccines and you want to throw mask mandates in, all right then. You have to wear a hard hat when visiting a construction site, radiation detectors in nuclear facilities, a lead apron when you get an xray. It's a pretty basic piece of safety equipment I've spent 100s of hours wearing before CVD was a thing.



    That is being unreasonable. I have to go from NY to California, I'm supposed to take a car because Joe Biden said you need a vaccine to fly commercially? Of course we are not there yet. But it sure seems trending that way.

    You have other options. YOU equated it to taking away your Constitutionally right to travel freely about the country. Not being able to fly a commercial airline might make it more challenging, expensive, inconvenient but you still have the choice. John Madden wouldn't fly, ever. He figured it out. Nobody making you do nuthin.
    I'll give you this one. Grocery store doesn't really bother me as much losing but still I could see them doing something goofy like that this winter.

    Nobody anywhere in the US is forcing/requiring/coercing anyone to get any vaccine and they never will. Might be a condition of employment or access or some such but those are choices
     
  14. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    10,747
    5,226
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    You left off the whole vaccine lowering the viruses transmission that a high enough vaccination rate would provide heard immunity and kill it like Small Pox before further mutations cause it to be even more of an issue. And that unvaccinated people can far more easily spread it to those that cannot take the vaccine, or who have medical issues that cause the vaccine to be less effective, like chemotherapy.

    But F those people. Mah freedom!
     
    Finatik and Fireland like this.
  15. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

    7,649
    4,304
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Slightly left of center
    But even here no one is forcing anyone to get a vaccine. You can choose not to vaccinate your kids and exceptions are made for religious and health reasons. But if it's just a choice, then the priveledge of a publicly funded education for your children is not available. Home school, private school, church school, online learning are all options.
     
  16. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

    1,623
    1,592
    113
    Jul 8, 2020
     
  17. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    10,747
    5,226
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Right and the context of this discussion is the NFL firing coaches and air travel.


    **edit** Also: SCotUS decision from 1905

    https://www.oyez.org/cases/1900-1940/197us11

    The Court held that the law was a legitimate exercise of the state's police power to protect the public health and safety of its citizens. Local boards of health determined when mandatory vaccinations were needed, thus making the requirement neither unreasonable nor arbitrarily imposed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
    Puka-head likes this.
  18. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    14,735
    8,648
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    What are you talking about? He's not lying about anything. ALL DEATHS auguste's with ANY vaccine, are reported to VAERS. Every year there are millions of vaccines given. Hundreds of millions. In the United States. And the covid injections, in the United States, have more deaths associated with them then with the hundreds of millions of other vaccines given each year, for the last twenty years combined.

    I don't think you're understanding the argument. NONE of the vaccine deaths reported to VAERS PRIOR to covid, were reported for reasons different than what the reports to VAERS are adding the covid infections.
     
  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    14,735
    8,648
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Cbrad, the death rate in the United States last I checked, was not out of line with the past 20 years. It rose by a similar amount as every previous year had.
     
  20. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    14,735
    8,648
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    If my tax dollars are going to a school, then I have a right to public education, whether my children are vaxxed or not.
     
  21. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

    7,649
    4,304
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Slightly left of center
    No. Your tax dollars go to support your community who collects the taxes, school system. Like it does the police, fire, public utilities, Library roads, parks etc. And you likely only pay those if you are a property owner or a sales a local sales tax. There are rules for admission and any one who meets those requirements is eligible. And the CVD vax is not required for admission to public school. You had the right to a publicly funded education when you were a child because THE COMMUNITY collectively paid for it, now it's your turn to fund the public education of this generation. Much like the COMMUNITY collectively getting vax to prevent a COMMUNITY disease is a shared cost to benefit the whole rather than the individual.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  22. danmarino

    danmarino Let's go Brandon Club Member

    10,688
    11,847
    113
    Sep 4, 2014
    Bottom line:

    Covid sucks

    Covid vaccines are safe and effective, albeit, not 100% safe or effective. Nothing is. People die from eating strawberries, and people die while wearing seatbelts. However, strawberries are healthy and seatbelts save lives.

    I think all adults, who are able, should get a Covid vaccine. This would save lives. However, the government should not force anyone to get vaccinated.

    Science shows that Covid rarely harms kids. Thus, none of my kids are vaccinated. Not because I think vaccinations are harmful (I'm adamant about vaccinations), but because why risk the vaccination when the threat of serious illness from Covid is so low?

    The Government has created this monster. Vaccinated vs Unvaccinated...This is par for the course. The Government loves to create divides. Don't fall for it. Do what's best for you and respect others who do what's best for them.
     
    Finatik, pumpdogs and Puka-head like this.
  23. cbrad

    cbrad .

    9,165
    10,809
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    ??? I just showed you the actual excess deaths data. Of course death rate spiked. In fact it spiked (relative to normal) more than during the infamous 1918 flu pandemic.

    Screen Shot 2021-07-24 at 1.24.38 AM.png

    lol.. I just googled what you said and you get sites like this one:
    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/death-rate

    which shows exactly what you described. However, note that it says in big bold letters at the top that all 2020 and later data are UN projections and do NOT include the effects of COVID lol. Want to retract?
     
    King Felix likes this.
  24. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

    7,649
    4,304
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Slightly left of center
    This thread Clif Notes version.

    addendum: after you've done that, spare a thought for how your actions impact others in your community. We are after all, Americans. :flag:
     
    danmarino and Finatik like this.
  25. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

    7,649
    4,304
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Slightly left of center
    As for the league they should not be requiring anyone to take a urinalysis test to determine if they have used X prohibited by league rules substance that may or may not be legal to consume under local state or federal law. But yet it's a condition of employment. Is testing a player/person/citizen for drug use legal or otherwise, supplements, or other prescribed substances illegal? NO. Immoral. Maybe. A violation of their civil rights? NO. A condition of employment? Nobody seems to have a problem with that do they?
     
  26. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

    3,064
    750
    113
    Nov 25, 2012
    Germany
    That‘s one thing I really didn‘t like and now with the vaccine they do the opposite. What I also don‘t get is, that a lot of people who got the vaccine think they are on the safe side now, even though you can still get Covid and pass it on to other people + we don’t know anything about long term affects from the vaccine. Another thing is that it‘s simmilar to the flu, which means it mutates quite fast so you probably have to get a shot every year and if you look at how „well“ the flu vaccines work, I don’t have high hopes that they do better with Covid. If people want to get the vaccine fine if not that is also fine, but don’t give vaccinated people more rights.
     
    aesop and resnor like this.
  27. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member Club Member

    17,596
    10,532
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    Hardly. I live in Gibraltar. A small British territory. Approx. 34000 population. We were able to get the vaccines out quickly - both doses - so that all those who wanted them could have them apart from children.
    We even offered them to migrant workers who cross the border from Spain.

    Here's an official government tweet from today:



    Now, not all Gibraltarians took the vaccine. We don't have the percentage of up take. But we get about 10000 cross border workers, so if you assume that all of them to it, you're left with about 29000 vaccinated out if 34000. That's about 85%.

    Most of that was a couple of months ago.
    We got down to zero cases. It held for a while. We've recently started to a spike in cases.

    Here's another tweet:


    Every day we're seeing positive cases for both vaccinated and unvaccinated.

    Now, some of those are very likely false positives, but the government doesn't give us those numbers, if it even looks for them.

    Most aren't serious cases. We've apparently got a few.

    So, if the numbers are to be believed, the vaccine will not stop transmission. It can slow it down, but it won't prevent it. The best hope is that it reduces the severity of symptoms.
     
  28. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member Club Member

    17,596
    10,532
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    There are several differences.
    Requiring a test for something you might have used isn't the same as requiring an injection of something you don't want.

    Second, the vaccines are new, it's not unreasonable for people to have doubts. Until time has passed there is no way of knowing exactly what all the side effects will be.

    Third, the risk of a severe infection for players is low, even without the vaccine.

    Fourth, vaccinations won't stop transmission between players, it will only reduce it.

    Fifth, those who don't want to risk severe symptoms can get the vaccination, thus reducing risk to lower, minimal levels.

    Sixth, people risk losing their jobs or pay over this.

    The league should be encouraging the vaccine but not requiring it.
     
    aesop, pumpdogs and JJ_79 like this.
  29. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

    4,525
    2,062
    113
    Sep 22, 2009
    delaware
    My friends Mom died of Alzheimer's but she tested positive for covid so the hospital wanted to put it down as a COVId death which wasn't the case.
     
    aesop and resnor like this.
  30. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    14,735
    8,648
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I absolutely have a problem with it.

    I don't believe that any human has the right to dictate what another human puts in their own body.
     
    aesop likes this.
  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    14,735
    8,648
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    No. I had a right, and my children have a right, to public education because the law dictates that every child have equal access to public education. It has NOTHING to do with how much or how little you pay in.

    My parents scrimped to put me and my siblings through a small private Christan school. My children don't go to public school either, but my local school gets funding for both my children.
     
    aesop likes this.
  32. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    9,476
    11,706
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    What he's saying is, VAERS clearly says that states are counting ALL DEATHS after a vaccination are given, without trying to die that death to the vaccination in any way.

    With COVID deaths, you have a physician saying it was disease related...either directly or indirectly. We don't believe those numbers 100% because hospitals got paid more for COVID deaths, but at least in that case there's some link to COVID. The vaccine deaths aren't researched or properly categorized at all....it's just a list of vaccinated people who died from anything.

    The math in both instances is lousy- but one is semi-accurate and the other is just a random number.

    To me, the more accurate way to weigh this is the CDC statement that between 3 and 5 people per million have any adverse reaction to the vaccine. Most of those are anaphylactic shock from allergies, which is why all medical centers made people stay 15 minutes after their shot to ensure there was no reaction. Which, by the way, is a pre-existing condition. And if there was a reaction, there was a medical team on-site for immediate treatment.

    I don't think anyone here is trying to say the vaccines are 100% safe, and I still respect your right not to get it. But we've gone through billions of doses worldwide and I'm not seeing the data that it's safer to remain unvaccinated. I don't think the stat you're quoting is even trying to be objective and the CDC says as much.
     
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    14,735
    8,648
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    The only difference in reporting is that there are more reports than ever before. I don't believe states are reporting. Physicians and patients report to VAERS.

    Why do you trust the CDC so much? A government agency is telling you that the government narrative is safe and accurate.

    That alone should give you pause.
     
    aesop likes this.
  34. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    591
    450
    63
    Dec 29, 2013
    I even said yesterday its fine if you want to say it gives you pause but saying the deaths are due to the vaccine isn't accurate. Would you agree that that isn't accurate?
     
  35. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    14,735
    8,648
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I don't know why you want me to agree to things I never said? Reporting to VAERS is a federal thing, and they follow up.

    I'm saying the VAERS numbers are incredibly concerning. Simply dismissing them is unwise.
     
    aesop likes this.
  36. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

    591
    450
    63
    Dec 29, 2013
    Because you said it wasn't a lie. So again is it accurate to say those deaths are are due to the vaccine? Saying it isn't accurate doesn't dismiss the numbers.
     
  37. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    9,476
    11,706
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    To me, this is more philosophy than government. I mean, let's say that the government is out to get us. So they see this opportunity to treat us with a vaccine that's really <whatever>. Why would they do that?

    If the goal is to kill us off (which doesn't make sense to me because they're losing money and power), why wouldn't they just poison our water sources? Or contaminate food? There would be so many easier, invisible ways to achieve that goal. So I can't buy into any conspiracy theory that they're trying to kill us. Heck, they could shut down infrastructure for two weeks, stop food deliveries and achieve a much better result.

    So if they don't want us to die, then what? To track us? To control us? They already do both of those things at a pretty high level. Maybe they want to brainwash us into a narrative; but honestly that's already happening as well with the media dividing us on EVERYTHING. And as I search for a reason that the government would want to harm us, there's really only one possibility- money. Maybe they can make us sick so we need more treatments where they could cash in somehow.

    But does the government really need money? I mean really? They literally print the stuff when they want more of it.

    So if it's probably not any of those things, then why rush a vaccine to market during a global pandemic? I'd guess the logical answer here is also the easiest one- they want to help. And maybe you're right, maybe it's for selfish reasons to keep the taxes and the control and the other stuff flowing, but us being healthy tax-paying citizens is a means to an end. It's the most profitable way to run a government.

    I see another side to that too though- who was really getting sick from the pandemic? Mainly old people, folks with pre-existing conditions and out "front line" workers....the people working minimum wage jobs at restaurants, grocery stores, etc. These groups are the least taxed and a burden on the system as a whole- why would the government intentionally try to save them if this is about finance and politics?

    Then there's the medical community- if the vaccines could potentially be dangerous, why in the world would you give it to the people on the ground actually saving lives first? That just doesn't make any sense.

    To answer your question- no, I don't implicitly trust the government, the FDA, the CDC, etc. But I do trust their motivations when there's absolutely nothing to gain by doing what they did. COVID wrecked the economy, cost trillions in treatments and sent our debt ratios skyrocketing out of control...the govt's best interests are clearly to stop this pandemic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
    Puka-head likes this.
  38. aesop

    aesop Well-Known Member

    2,145
    1,281
    113
    Nov 2, 2008
    NYC
    You're not getting the flip side of it.

    \/\/\/

    This was happening all last year. Every death was ruled as covid.

    So why are you OK with it going the other way but if a death is ruled as being because of covid instead of because of the vaccine you don't have the same requirement of proof?
     
  39. cbrad

    cbrad .

    9,165
    10,809
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    People need to separate "trusting CDC data" from "trusting CDC recommendations as best public policy". The former is something you should generally do while the latter not necessarily. Remember the CDC is an organization, not a single individual, so you have all kinds of infighting as to what should or should not be recommended based on conflicting data, especially in the early stages of the epidemic. And you obviously have political pressure. Who wins out at any moment in time depends on where the weight of the evidence falls, who has power, and the biases of individuals within the organization.

    I think the biggest credibility problem the CDC created for itself was less the political pressure that probably led to changing certain recommendations but instead the constant flip-flopping of recommendations independent of any political pressure. But they handled the situation a LOT better than the WHO, which really lost credibility because the WHO showed way too much deference to China. The WHO of course was in a tough spot: attack the most important country in the epidemic (where this damn thing originated) too much and you might lose cooperation with that country. Of course China never fully cooperated, but you can see the dilemma.

    But CDC data is in general trustworthy. I've only dealt with them once, wanting access to serology data from a malaria study researchers there had done to test a mathematical model I developed for separating seronegatives and seropositives in trachoma, an infectious eye disease (both trachoma and malaria are classified as NTD = neglected tropical diseases, which is why I wanted to test on data from another NTD). I saw no issues with their data — same as you'd expect from any comparable study at a university.

    As an aside, I'll even add that data from big pharma is in generally trustworthy because they're so focused on getting FDA approval. The FDA invites outside experts to review proposals, and you really have to make your case in front of them. Usually the recommendations of the experts are followed, though this recent thing with that Alzheimers drug is a rare exception (and the FDA is getting hammered for that). If there's an issue with untrustworthy data from big pharma it's usually sampling bias (testing on individuals more likely to show the effect they want), but whatever sampling bias they try to get away with has to be seen as "acceptable" by outside experts.

    Last caveat: where CDC data might be misleading is if there are insufficient studies to confirm something but they need to publish results before such confirmation. I mean you'll find individual research papers showing almost anything. Some of that is good science done on small sample size and needing further confirmation, while in a LOT of cases the researchers were just sloppy — way too many less than capable researchers out there. And of course in some cases you have over-reach of claims by individual researchers (less so the CDC). That's why you need lots of different groups doing comparable research which leads to a general consensus of what is reliable vs. unreliable evidence. But before enough studies like that are done, it is possible the CDC data may not be as reliable. Regardless, in general their data is trustworthy. Oh, and "their" data is often a compilation of data from others.
     
    danmarino and Finatik like this.
  40. aesop

    aesop Well-Known Member

    2,145
    1,281
    113
    Nov 2, 2008
    NYC
    We just saw the greatest transfer of wealth in history over the past year. You don't think the people stuffing the pockets of lawmakers aren't doing everything in their power to ensure these restrictions stay in place in some way for as long as possible?

    The government is a dirty **** for big lobby money. Big Pharma, Walmart, Amazon.. who is making out like kings during this whole thing? Look how hard the tech oligarchs are working to censor all "wrongthink". This is a transfer of wealth and power.
     
    danmarino and resnor like this.

Share This Page