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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Georgia Fin, Jan 18, 2011.
He's not saying Henne is a good QB. He's saying he was setup to fail by an inept regime.
This is why I cant trust this regime to develop another QB. They have failed twice, why are we giving them another shot?
There is no convincing these people. They would rather ***** and moan than wait it out and see what happens with a new OC. We saw glimpses of Henne being successful in a hurry up offense last season till father time slowed him down and marched out the Wild Kitty. Of course he was set up to fail and then he was thrown under the bus in front of the entire media during the season. What kind of dumbass coach does that anyway. I'm so glad Henning is gone so we can see if you can salvage what Henning and Lee did to Henne and his confidence. They wrecked this young QB. Let's hope the damage is reversible.
Well, for me Killahp, I gave Henne the last 4 games of the season to show me what he had:
He did run the no huddle really well
A game losing int's
A train wreck of a 2 minute offense twice
A int in the first 4 minutes of the patriots game
TBH, I'd prefer Thiggy be resigned, but if Orton is brought in Henne should be the #2 Qb, if not traded away outright.
At this point, I'd 85% prefer the err..wonderfully athletic Vince Young to Henne.
My one caveat is if that 3 Wr base offense is installed I can see Henne flourishing.
If the Dolphins still continue to believe in Henne they need their heads examined. (although they already need that)
Do you guys not watch the games. God he isn't even a 3rd string QB. Watch the guy play look at his pocket presence even with time, accuracy?.And this was his 3rd year WTF.........
Would'nt surprise me if the staff ends up starting and making injury prone Pennington our #1 going into next season (seems to be the pattern)
Mind blowing that Henne would be even a consideration.
Thats one think Tuna face got right, and probably the major reason he high tailed and ran............
Well, that's where we disagree and where we have always disagreed. I don't know if Chad Henne is the right guy.
While the Jets did a fine job of stockpiling talent for Sanchez, all it did was give them a window of 2 years, maybe 3 next year. They have a long list of FAs and some of their key contributors this year are only getting older--LT, JT, Damien Woody, Shaun Ellis, etc. We can do the same thing and I'd sure as heck be happy as hell to get to consecutive AFC Championship games, but the Jets are going to collapse and when they do, they won't have a QB to get themselves out of it.
I'm always of the belief that you try and improve all areas of the team, including those that are weaknesses--which is the QB position on our team right now. I hope the hiring of Daboll and a future QB coach strengthens that weakness.
Also, if the Jets do not beat the Steelers this week, wouldn't you agree that it's the QB that is the biggest question mark on their team? I think so--which again, sometimes you can get lucky and win in spite of your QB, other teams get that guy and compete every year--Steelers, Patriots, Colts, Chargers, Eagles, Saints, etc.
This article does a nice job summing up a lot of the things we've been discussing for a while here. What always surprises me the most after reading or thinking about these things is that Tony Sparano still has a job.
And I did enjoy the Parcells hate in the article.
Yep! Competition didn't hurt Drew Brees in San Diego when they drafted Rivers. It didn't hurt Joe Montana in San Francisco when they brought in Young. And it should not hurt Henne. I would like to see us draft Gabbert, Newton, Locker, or Mallett.
May the best man win!
I agree with this post. I've personally seen enough.
It could work out for the jest too. Maybe they figured they could buy sanchez some time these first couple years by stacking the team, and in year three they hope it all comes together so he would be a positive for them.
That's just it. There's a thin line between glimpses and inconsistency. A quarterback that constantly shows "glimpses" is actually inconsistent. Not saying that describes Henne (yet) but the only thing he has done with any consistency is throw interceptions. He had at least one INT in almost every game. He had 3 games where he threw 3 interceptions and zero games where he threw 3 touchdowns.
Here's another way to look at it. We saw glimpses of Henne throwing interceptions in the redzone. Does this mean he is likely to throw more interceptions?
His accuracy when throwing long has also been questioned. In Henne's defense he was not given a lot of opportunities to throw long. However the few chances he did get, he often missed.
I sometimes wonder if this is really possible. Let's be real. A quarterback cannot have a fragile ego. Mental toughness is essential for the position. If Henne doesn't have that then he will never succeed.
When I hear him talk it sounds like Henne has the mental toughness but nobody really knows what goes on inside a guy's head.
That's exactly what I thought while reading the article. Did LeBatard actually watch the games? It seems like he got an idea for article comparing Henne to Sanchez after comparing their stats. But the point he's missing is that nobody is calling Sanchez a great QB. They're talking about Rodgers being elite now. Not Sanchez.
I think everyone was excited when Henne took over the job, we knew he had the arm that Penny did not, and I think that blinded us somewhat...after 8 weeks of seeing him play this season i came to a conclusion, I don't want to move forward with him, and put our resources surrounding him to be our future...There are way to many flaws in Henne's game to double down...personally, i've been done since midseason, right before he got benched..
It's simple really: Sanchez' numbers = Henne's numbers. Sanchez is beloved in NY by the fans and media. Henne is hated by the fans in Miami and reviled by the media.
Well, one QB was allowed to make mistakes and was coached on how to correct them. The other QB was told not to make mistakes and was punished (ie. benched) when he did.
It's why he uses the child/parenting analogy throughout the article.
And, yes, LeBatard watches the games. He's blasted Henne this year. His point wasn't to convince anyone he was a good QB, but to point out how he became a bad one.
You're in the majority with this opinion. However, let me ask you this; Who drafted Chad Henne? Who appointed the people who were supposed to DEVELOP Chad Henne? Who was responsible for putting the GM in charge of surrounding Chad Henne with talent? Who's the guy who, once he realized he'd failed here, left town and collected money?
Not making excuses here, but it is a little difficult to throw TDs when you're taken out in the redzone for the WC and your coach plays for FGs. He'd have 10+ more TDs this season if he had as many redzone pass attempts as Drew Brees did (if the numbers were extrapolated) b/c they both had very similar scoring production there.
Glimpses of INTs in the redzone? He had 2 INTs in the redzone....... and one was on the last play of a game thanks to our special teams' debacle..... even with that he had an 89 redzone rating. Just sayin.
Thats one of the things I dont get about certain fans.
They act as if bringing in someone else to compete (and I've seen this about other positions too not just QB) is unholy or something that is going to set us back a million years.
Isnt that old saying that you draft based on talent and not need? Because when you draft for need you usually end up reaching (and busting)?
Its like you say: "Lets bring in a vet/great rookie prospect and see if they can compete and fair better than Henne" and you get people freaking out saying "NO!!! We'd have to start over blah blah blah"
IMHO you always try and upgrade whenever you can. Its nothing personal towards the player. But a teams goal should be to always improve talent at every position, and if the opportunity arises to do such a thing, why wouldn't you go for it instead of just playing it safe with that average player you already have?
I see your point HK but at the sametime we still have that GM in charge and the same HC.
Its not like there's a whole new regime here that is trying to change things up.
Henne still has the same boss that yanked him out of a game last season more than once.
The way I see things here for everyone involved is a 1 year make it to the playoffs or bust situation.
The Dolphins don't have to believe in Henne. The coaches don't believe in him, and the players don't believe in him (especially Marshall). Henne regressed badly this past season, why keep him around? Just seems to me that 2011 is shaping up to be the "Season of FAIL" for the Dolphins. None of these moves have made any sense whatsoever.
Well, I agree with you. I'm not advocating Henne start here anymore. I think he's still the best QB on the roster, but he may be ruined. I DEFINITELY do not have confidence in him with this staff.
Henne wasn't the only problem with our offense IMO. Our scoring rate and production rate had a lot to do with our inability to run. Sure Henne made mistakes, some multiple ones, some costly ones but what do we expect with a young qb. It's not like our WR's didn't drop some passes, our RB's fumble at crutial times either.
I think his play this year highlighted the fact that he is young, could still become better and IMO should be given a chance to correct his mistakes and two that bringing in another qb to compete with him would be a good strategy.
Whether he wins that competition is another story but good qb's don't just appear out of nowhere. It would also be different if he was 35 and performing like that, then yes the decision to release him would be much easier. But you have the asset, at it's lowest value right now, but because of his age/experience it would be a waste not to let him try and correct his mistakes.
The only thing that has been a constant over the past decade is qb's either have to be elite or their gone. I think it's time we stick with a consistent qb and let the team rally around the signal called. Swithching our offensive leader every 2 years doesn't seem to be working, no matter who is back there. The benching of Henne certainly didn't work this season and Thigpen's start vs the bears showed it's not benefitial to just throw a new qb in there and expect better results. I think it would have been a closer game if we stuck with a consistent option of Henne during that game. At least the players knew what to expect from their qb during the game.
So much of an offense is not just the talent or players involved but rather the timing. Especially in the throwing game. Just look at Peyton's inconsitencies with Garcon this year. Sometimes it was prolific, other times it was direct picks by DB's because Peyton anticipates and Garcon ran the wrong route.
I'm a firm believer in riding out Henne's lows in hopes the entire offense learns from their mistakes and together they become better. Constantly switching the qb doesn't seem to have an advantage that i can think of. It even happened lots when Henne put together a solid drive with 5 passes completed in a row, defense on their heels, entering the red zone and then all of a sudden WC to catch them off guard. Henne pulled, the offense questioning why 2 running backs, having their worst seasons ever, are to take over the offense after the passing game is carving up the defense and they have no answer for Henne / WR's. Then Henne comes back in and the chemistry of the drive is gone and were down one less play to work with. Henne comes in on 2nd and long, almost every time.
Sure bring in another qb this offseason to compete with Henne, put some pressure on him. Make him earn the job and earn the offenses respect. The consistency of having him back another year should have significant improvements between all players on offense. That's the strategy i would take. I guess we will see what our managers and coaches do this offseason.
My question would be what more should Henne be given before he succeeds? He got to sit the first year and learn from Penny (who is considered one of the best at the mental side of the game). Henne's first year of actual play (2009) he played for a team that was 4th in the NFL in rushing (aka he didn't have to carry the offense). He still threw for more INT's than TD's. This year they give him Marshall (unfairly remove the offensive line and rushing attack from him, but we had to pay for Marshall somehow) and put the offense on his shoulders. Results, more INT's than TD's, and choking in massive style coming down the stretch run of the season when we needed results.
I don't blame Henne entirely. The coaching staff is DEFINITELY accountable for this as well.
One last question. Was Henne benched because of mistakes or bad play? To me it was bad play. It wasn't a parental form of punishment just to send a message. They put Penny in because they thought he could do better. There is a difference. At least that is my bloated opinion.
Can I get a link?
My simple answers to this would be: A competent coaching staff and time.
Obviously there are other factors involved as well, ie an O-Line that can actually block, running backs who can gain yards and some playmakers ANYWHERE on the offensive side of the ball.
I don't want to make it seem as though I'm absolving Henne of any and all blame. He deserves a lot, if not for the mere fact that he conceeded to this coaching staff's demands of playing like a scared little girl, something he never did before arriving in Miami.
To answer your last question, I know Henne wasn't playing great, but I really have no idea why he was benched. Now, obviously there are a few reasons why he could be benched, but which one was more prevalent than the others is something we may never know.
1) They thought Pennington gave them a better chance to win
Well, maybe. Although he did start of the season before at 0-3
2) They wanted to light a fire under Henne
This could be true. They named him the starter at the beginning of the year for a reason.
3) They wanted to save their jobs
Most likely IMO. You don't do that to a young QB unless you absolutely HAVE to do it.
Maybe it was a combination of all three. But wasn't the Dolphins record at that point like 4-4? Not exactly jump-off-a-bridge-worthy. Not great, but not fatal.
Who knows, this regime seems to have no clue what they're doing.
As he said in the article, one QB is a 1st round pick with a large contract. The other QB was passed up for Phillip Merling and makes considerably less money. The teams have invested in the players in different ways. I wonder how much of that plays into it.
I think you make some very valid and fair points. Thank you. I thought you might be letting Henne off the hook completely. Something I felt like the original article was doing as well.
I will say we called that fade pass to the corner way too often. That never worked. Not once.
However I disagree with the idea that the Wildcat limited Henne's opportunities in the redzone. The Wildcat gets a bad rap. There only difference between Henne handing off to Ronnie Brown and the Wildcat is the fact that we can add an extra blocker.
Really that's it.
So instead of a hand-off. We run the Wildcat. And why not? Why wouldn't you want an extra blocker down in the redzone? What purpose does it serve to have Henne hand the ball off to Ronnie? Personally I'd rather have the extra blocker in there and eliminate the exchange between QB and RB. It's not necessary when you have a running back like Ronnie who can handle a direct snap with ease.
As far as playing for field goals that's a Catch-22. When you have a QB who throws a lot of interceptions, doesn't it make sense to limit his mistakes and run the ball instead? At the very least you will be able to kick a field goal. But if Henne throws an interception then you don't get any points.
If I'm mad at the coaches about anything it's the lack of a kickass running attack. Not the fact that they were gun-shy when it came to Henne throwing the ball. I watched every game and every drive we put together I said, "C'mon Henne don't screw this up. We're moving the ball."
To his credit Henne made several plays. But he was wildly inconsistent. Henne was like a box of chocolates. You never knew what you were gonna get.
Okay maybe the redzone interceptions are a misconception because they came at inopportune times. But the fact remains that Henne finished in a tie (with Favre) for 4th with 19 interceptions this season. And he finished 23rd with 15 touchdowns.
INT - 4th among all QBs in the NFL (19)
TD - 23rd among all QBs in the NFL (15)
I don't care what anybody says. There is no way to defend that. Anything you say sounds like an excuse. Try it in real life. Say to any football fan, "Henne was 4th in INTs and 23rd in TDs but--" There're gonna stop listening right there. There's no reason for it. No excuse.
Maybe LeBatard didn't do a good job in the article of explaining it, but he's KILLED Henne on his show multiple times.
Henne's been bad, there's no denying it. I think most "Henne apoligists" here just have a different reason as to why he's bad than others. It's easy to say "He sucks", but harder to explain why. It's clear he has/had talent, enough to get drafted in the second round, but then he regressed. Why he regressed is and always has been the issue.
the problem is how many times do we have to blow the phins up and restart? the dolphins have been doing this for a decade now and nothing is working, the dolphins are a stagnant franchise
Henne to me has talent but is it ever going to come through the piss poor decisions he makes because at this point he reminds me of joey harrington a guy that can make some great throws but a boneheaded decision loses the game
now do they give henne another year with a new OC? maybe get some new weapons to bring in i dont know this is a talented WR core that the dolphins have not had in a while
the problem is if you give henne another year you sink or swim with him, if he does what he did this year it costs tony,ireland their jobs the dolphins will then have to scrap the qb and go with another and set the rebuilding process of this team further back, and while that happens the defense that is young will age it just leads to more "rebuilding"
i honestly dont know what they should do
That is exactly how I feel. Henne has shown glimpses but he has not been consistent. So bring in another guy to compete for the job and see if Henne can win the starting gig. Worst case scenario we end up with two great quarterbacks on our roster. Hardly a bad problem to have.
If Henne can't handle a little competition at QB then he isn't the guy.
You draft a QB in the 1st round and if Henne beats him out for the starting job then you make a trade in a couple years and recoup the pick.
I don't agree with the way Henne was benched. Sparano should have given him a warning, "Kid if you lose next week or throw a bunch of interceptions again I'm going with the old pro. This is your chance. Don't blow it."
That's the way it should have been done. Then Henne would not have been blind-sided.
We were 4-4 when he got benched. Extrapolate that out and you're looking at an 8-8 finish. Henne had thrown 8 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. Those are the facts.
Henne is a big boy. I am sure he understood the importance of having more touchdowns than interceptions. The whole team is counting on him to have a good day. Because if he has a bad then we are likely to lose.
The four games we lost: Henne had 5 TD and 8 INT
The four games we won: Henne had 3 TD and 2 INT
Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.
Was ANYONE on our offense consistent? This aint baseball folks, you cant just play well regardless of what your teammates are doing. The OL was inconsistent. So were the RBs, the WRs, TEs, all inconsistent. The play calling was consistent. Consistently awful. To single out one guy and say he should've or could've been consistent in that environment, is asking way too much. Could Henne have played better? Sure. Henne and 52 other guys could've played better. So how about some competition for Hartline, Berger, Shuler, Polite, Ronnie, Ricky, Cobbs, Bess, Wallace & Moore? I'd love to see some of that. All of this "Henne's the problem" has some truth to it, but its blown way out of proportion. You'd think we had Ryan Leaf or Akili Smith back there from the way some people are talking.
Remember, the timing was odd. He had arguably his worst game against Baltimore, but the week before, sans that last drive of some of the worst playcalling I've ever seen, he was pretty solid against an elite Pittsburgh defense. It was a game we had in hand, no pun intended.
I said at the time the benching wreaked of desperation. I think the Tony Sparano Replacement Tour led by Stephen Ross kinda backs that up.
But if you can blame your inconsistent play on the play of your teammates then there is an endless circle of blame, and nobody can ever be held accountable.
But the coaching staff and the game film will truly tell who was consistent and who was not. On any given play each player has a responsibility did they execute it or not? Yes or No. Did he block his guy yes or no? Did the QB make the right decision given the defense presented and the route combination of WR, yes or no?
So I don't buy the circular logic that everyone was inconsistent and therefore no blame can be laid to an individual.
We as fans can't evaluate it that way, but the staff definitely can.
In hindsight, I wonder if Penne was the coaches' preferred choice all along. They arbitrarily announced Henne was gonna be the starter, which was odd, and Henne never beat Penne out. There was never even a competition really. Penne remained the stonger leader and locker room voice despite losing his job. Other players (Fasano/Marshall) were visibly upset w/ Henne, especially in the Bmore game. The play calls were bizarre in their conservatism (max protect every other play). Then the Tennessee game comes and it's 4 wide, 3 wide, Cobbs out wide, spread em out, open it up, and I'm wondering whats going on and then it hit me: This is a game plan they made for Pennington, riiight. Why the girlie game plans all year and then open sesame when Penne is at the helm? My guess is they wanted Penne in there all along.
IMO its entirely possible that Henning and Sparano didnt think Henne was ready or that he hadnt earned the job & they didnt want to play him, but their hand was forced by a meddlesome GM/Owner. So Henne struggles and they have their chance to bench him but its a disaster. Assuming Henning and Spaz wanted Penne in there and finally got their wish, they're looking pretty silly when Penne goes down after two plays, for the season. If I were a conspiracy theorist...Nah. Impossible .
In any case, the season ends, Henning is gone quicker than a drunk man's money at a strip club. Ross is flying cross country to meet with Harbaugh, the worlds hottest QB Guru, and now we've hired a supposed QB guru who worked with Colt McCoy. Just speculating here, but it sounds like Spaz was and is, having Henne forced down his throat from above. That he was against it last year, not so subtly pushing back against it during the season, and was almost fired for it. Question is, was the "increased control over personnel" a nod to Spaz choosing his own QB, or has the groom Henne/other QB hammer been laid down behind the scenes?
I haven't a clue.
I totally agree. Without knowing the play calls, assignments, coverages, etc. its impossible to get a real gauge on what's going on. The coaches are poring over film to find out what actually happened. Meanwhile the fans are using stats and QB ratings, mostly to support their preconceived notions of what happened.
I'm not absolving anyone of blame, but I'm not going to scapegoat anyone either. Personally, with the talent we had on offense, I think average was our ceiling, we just didnt have the right pieces to be successful IMO. Others feel different, and that's understandable, but at the end o the day, no one who doesnt have the coaches tape and play call sheets knows for sure. Henning was let go, thats a clue, Spaz was nearly let go, another clue. Drafting/trading for a QB would be another clue, what we do to fix the offense as a whole will tell us what the brass thought and who they ultimately held responsible.
I could make a strong argument for Henne remaining the starter but it would have nothing to do with the touchy, feely stuff Lebastard mentions.
The article was little more than accusations toward all in favor of hope for another. The biggest stretch of the truth is his depiction of events leading to Tom Brady and the Patriots winning their first Superbowl. The truth?
Tom Brady's stats in that game? 16 of 27 for 145 yards and one touchdown
........and Lebastard used that performance as disdain for the offense you saw in 2010 from the Miami Dolphins. Take the handcuffs off? Sure, Dan.....
Good point. I am all for competition at every position.
I would just point out that QB is the most important position on offense. If Hartline has a bad day we can overcome it much easier than if Henne has a bad day. Agreed?
Also a good point.
Absolutely. QB is a premium position, the most important position in sports besides bookie and bartender. But, if our goal is to improve the team, the offense, the passing game etc, its a lot easier to find a better WR than Hartline than it is to find a better QB than Henne. IMO.
In conclusion........ it would be incredibly stupid to let these clowns get their hands on and ruin yet another QB prospect.
I don't know if I'd say the timing was odd. For all we know Sparano and his coaches decided to roll with Henne the first half of the season and then assess him at that point.
And you could make a case for it being a desperation move. But you could also make a case for Pennington. He was the Comeback Player of the Year in 2008 and an MVP candidate. And we have him sidelined on the bench?! Now I've never been a big fan of Pennington but I can certainly see the logic.
If Henne had 20 touchdowns against 10 interceptions and we were 5-3 I don't think Sparano would have benched him. You know what I'm saying?