A better supporting cast? Breer apparently doesn’t know about Henne’s time at Michigan. That was one hell of a supporting cast, and Henne did nothing.

Post-Brandon Marshall, the problem isn’t the tools, it’s the workman using them.

 

MCrap to the Viking is only thing worth reading. Henne is a fish.

 

Completely agree. Having 6 elite practice squad players at his disposal definitely translates to great tools. <sarcasm>

How good are the tools when they're in the shop getting fixed?

How good are the tools when you're using a screw driver to pound a nail because there's no hammer in the box?

 

You can't win with mediocrity at the most important position in today's NFL.

The QB will need help. But contrary to popular belief, we are not bereft of talent on offense. In fact we're pretty damn good at receiver.

But it all starts with the QB. It doesn't matter how great the supporting cast is. You're not going to get over the hump not being very good at QB.

The only way you're better served upgrading the supporting cast is if you're absolutely convinced you can't come away with a QB this year. But few coaches/regimes can afford to forgo a need like that. Especially this one.

 

"The offense isn't that far off from being pretty good, with improvements most needed at positions where new players can come in and contribute quickly."

I don't think I agree with this statement considering we still have a lot of questions to be answered.
We hope for the best with Henne but we still don't know if he is the answer at quarterback? We still don't know who will fill out the offensive line? We still don't know who our starting running backs will be? We still have questions at TE and a lot of people think we still need a speed receiver? We all still have questions about the new OC?
It could all come together or there could still be a lot of questions.
With a passing game that didn't work and a running game that didn't work last year, I don't think that is pretty close to being pretty good,..yet, but thats JMO.

 

No, we're not bereft of talent, but we are severely lacking at depth....... so if the talent is on the sideline and the "depth" is in the game, then we're not really all that talented, are we.

From what I recall, we were winning early on last season before injuries and so forth took a toll. We should've started out 6-1 if not for the Pitt call and the Jets special teams melt down. Over a 4 game stretch we "should've" beaten both SB teams and the AFC runner up. That sounds like a team in the middle of a playoff run.


How about----- upgrading the supporting cast because it's flawed and needs to be upgraded regardless of what QB is on the field?

 

If Henne does not improve *his* own internal and physical abilities, throwing no amount of draft picks down the well for "supporting cast" is going to make this work better.

It would make for awesome Madden updates though I guess?

 

I think the Dolphins would also be better served if they replaced 7 of the 11 starters from last season with better players....

 

Kind of hard to win when you're philosophy is to use the run to set up the pass.....and you can't run the ball or won't run the ball. I don't excuse Henne for having a bad year, he hasn't progressed to where he needs to be for sure but I do think we can win 10 games with him and a good running attack. We should be looking to upgrade the Qb position if we can but honestly from where we sit in the draft and the FA's available its looking like Henne is probably our best option so improving the Oline and running game is our best bet to compete next year. Some Qbs struggle for a few years then turn it on, hopefully he's that guy. I do think the supporting cast and our offensive philosophy/coaching hurt us terribly last year, you don't win with Henne throwing 40 times and no running game. We have the defense to compete if we can run and Henne can control the turnovers we can be in the playoffs next season.

 

How's that running game working out for ya? You're using one part of the O to suit your point and blocking out 3 rushing TD's. We trained as a running team that passed 20-30 times max. We became a 30+ pass per game team without the training or personnel to do that.

 

Don’t you want to trade Davone Bess? You don’t really get to complain about Henne not having tools.

 

I'm doing nothing of the sort.

QB ain't good enough no matter what kind of offense we're running. And therefore it should be priority #1.

Simple as that.

 

We've got 8 draft picks. I'm not advocating we use them all at the QB position. ;)

We have plenty of areas to address. Receiver is down the list IMO.

 

If better supporting cast means Adrian Peterson and Andre Johnson then sure, we could probably live with Henne. But those type of players aren't going to be acquired. The players we have now, aside from running back, are plenty capable of scoring enough points to win games. If we got better play out of the QB position I think that would become fairly obvious.

 

We really haven't had a true #1 WR since Irving Fryar and we still don't ...... Sadly!

 

I have no problem with quarterback being a priority, my problem is putting this year's quarterback prospects on a pedestal. The only quarterback I would want to take at #15 is Blaine Gabbert. I am indifferent about Newton and Mallet at #15; I wouldn't be upset but I wouldn't be happy. However if we wind up selecting Jake Locker or Christian Ponder... I will be pissed.

I would much rather trade back and recoup a 2nd round pick... hope that Mark Ingram falls or select an interior lineman. Maybe select someone like Jake Locker or Colin Kaepernick in the 2nd round or Ricky Stanzi in the 3rd round.

The one thing I don't want to do is take a quarterback just to take a quarterback...

 

The Jets have been to the AFCCG two years in a row w/ a QB who is worse than mediocre. Why? Because they run the ball, dominate on defense and play good ST. They dont ask their QB to do much. They have play makers all over the field on offense. They have a solid mix of power and speed/quickness in the run game. They have a solid mix of speed WRs and possession guys. They have a sold seam threat at TE. They have an OL that has played several years together. Its a versatile, healthy, and damned good group. Just about any QB in the league could run that offense, even Sanchez.

Us? We cant run it on anyone. We have two plodding backs who cant generate yards on their own, threaten the edges of the defense, or make big plays. Our play action game is a joke, across the board. Our WRs are all possession guys, ditto at TE. Out of 5 WRs and 3 TEs, HALF OF THEM belong on the practice squad or the street. (Wallace, Moore, Shuler, Mastrud). Our OC should be in a bingo hall, not a coaches booth. We're a wannabe smash mouth running team w/ one of the worst running games in the league and for some reason, we think changing QBs is going to fix things? C'mon man.

I'd love to have an upgrade for Henne, but blaming him for what happened on offense last year is a whole lotta naive IMO.

 

I can complain all I want about him not having tools b/c 6 practice squad guys seeing time at #2-#4 WR and #1TE equates to NOT HAVING TOOLS.

Why don't you come up with another weak argument and see how many more posts you can twist for your benefit. I said I'd take a 2nd rounder for Bess if it were offered and use that on Jernigan. :wink2: Would anyone else not take a 2nd for him? Bess is NOT a "tool" on 1st down or 3rd and long. dink-dunk-dink-dunk-dink-dunk is NOT a tool unless you're pressed to pick up 3-8 yards.

What kind of tool is he in the intermediate to deep range? What kind of tool is he when it comes to picking up chunk yardage? I've stated NUMEROUS times that I think Bess is an elite 3rd down machine, and Henne has ZERO problem maximizing that ability; however, just because Bess is a great tool on 3rd down, it doesn't mean he's as equally as beneficial on 1st & 2nd.

What kind of tool do we have (TE or RB) to get vertical on seam routes to attack Cover 2 for Henne? That's correct-- we don't. However, that tool exists in the tool box of more than half the QBs in the league.

What kind of tools does Henne have for picking up chunk yardage? Yup-- few compared to the rest of the league.

How about his carpenter partner, Mr. Ground Game, who constantly shows up late for work--- putting Henne in excessive difficult situations that he shouldn't be facing considering he's still learning the job?

How effectively can these slow operating "tools" be used when the ground game puts Henne in 2nd & 3rd and long? How long does it take Bess & Fasano to run 10-12 yards down field? How much ground can Ricky & Ronnie eat up on a dump off?

 

This.

We have too many needs to spend a high pick on one of these developmental QBs, and we're not doing ANYTHING this year if our "RUN ORIENTED" team can NOT run the ball. No young QB will succeed here during Sparano's tenure if the ground game isn't fixed; Henne's no exception.

 

The biggest question is why do our WR's need Peyton Manning to have good seasons. They should be bringing up the play of those around them.

 

yup, and our possession-based personnel wasn't threatening enough to scare defenses out of Cover 2. Most importantly-- we had no ground game; Marshall by his admission wasn't at 100% speed wise; Hartline doesn't really fit the "attacking safeties" category; linebackers can play Fasano without needing help over the top, which means safeties can pay more attention to Marshall; our backs posed zero threat in dump offs.


Henne might have had a difficult time reading the coverage, but our inability to attack it does nothing but make things harder for him.

And it wasn't because of Henne that teams ran Cover 2. That's a BS argument. Teams ran it b/c our personnel let them run it. How often did we run 3-4 WR verticals to test the defense?

If we had: a couple receivers who scared safeties and could get behind them routinely; a TE who could routinely get behind LBs; backs who could beat LBs for big gains on a dump off; and an actual ground game...... then defensive coordinators wouldn't be like: "Eh, that receiver just ran by my safety twice in a row, but I'm not going to worry about it b/c I don't think Henne will connect on it and possibly change the game with one throw". lol. He's an NFL QB. If our guys could attack Cover 2, then it WILL scare teams out of it.

 

Exactly.
Answer---- That's because they're not as good as people think as a collective b/c they don't compliment each other well and don't maximize each other's capability.

Example: Marshall should've been catching YAC passes underneath vs cover 2 after our other guys cleared out the safeties or drew the LBs. Too bad Bess, Fasano, Hartline, or our backs don't allow that to happen. Is Bess attacking a Safety to open up room for Marshall? Nooooope. How about 4.8 Fasano clearing out the middle and taking LBs further away from Brandon? Not really. At least tell me the backs can do it. Did you say they can't either? That's a shame. So we're basically paying Marshall to be a possession receiver and a decoy, huh? Bummer.

The Cowboys put up PLENTY of points (7th in pts/game & 7th in yards/game) with a QB with a 76 career rating because they had a dynamic, playmaking offense; however, our fans apparently feel better about themselves by scapegoating one person rather than speaking about our offense as a whole for what it truly was >> horrendously lackluster.

 

This is absurd and you know it. Henne had more tools than Ryan Fitzpatrick and arguably more/better than Tom Brady. The problem is the craftsman, not the resources.

Jernigan is an inferior product to Bess. Far inferior. By the way, Bess’ YPC is 10.4. Throwing to him is a first down.

 

cmon. How is it better when it's not on the field or when you cant effectively use it b/c your ground game is putting you behind the 8ball in predictable passing situations (and long ones) with a team meant to be possession oriented? Seriously-- Please tell me how "good" Bess & Fasano are during 2nd & 3rd and long when the defense knows the pass is coming. At least Fitz had enough speed and ability from his skill guys to freakin attack a cover 2. Who cares how good Bess, Marshall, Fasano, and Hartline are "individually" if they're in an offense full of other possession guys?! That doesn't help us; it hinders us.

Ok, so now all of a sudden a guy who is best suited for 3rd down and less than 8 yards, who cant stretch the field, pick up chunk yardage, or return punts is all of a sudden better than a guy who is arguably THE top slot receiver in the draft? You know how we know Bess is inferior?---- because probably no one would give us even a 3rd for him, yet nearly the entire league would give a 3rd for Jernigan. I like Bess a lot, but his limitations account for as many of our offense's problems as his attributes contribute to our success.

I hate to break it to you but Bess is NOT the Dolphins' offense. He's NOT the playmaker, the GO-TO receiver, on 1st & 2nd down. That belongs to Marshall..... followed by Hartline. That's why they both have more yards and a greater YPC on these downs. Bess is an afterthought on 1st down. Jernigan is basically Bess with speed. Jernigan gives 1st and 2nd downs big play capability. He takes a Bess 15 yard punt return and takes it to the house instead. On 3rd down, Jerrel has as good a COD ability to separate from his defender as Bess does, only Jernigan has the speed to pull away after the catch.

Oh no, not the massive 10.4 YPC!!! If only 400 receivers didn't have one greater. lol.
By the way, how good are those 10.4 yards on 3rd and 11+. By my math, that's 4th down. :wink2:

 

Not to point out the obvious, but there are 3 downs before you're faced with a punt; therefore by your standard, if "throwing to Bess is a "1st down", then you don't need him on 1st & 2nd down, now do you? <rhetorical> You can instead get the ball in the hands of a playmaker (you know- the guys who gain more than 10.4 YPC and don't grow a beard or have grand kids in the time it takes to run 50 yards), and if that fails THEN Bess is there to pick up your first down. :wink2:


Most people don't know this, but during Bess's pro day, the guy holding the stop watch ordered a pizza (from a pay phone)....... and had it delivered before Bess crossed the forty. True story. Hawaiian, with ham & pineapple I think it was.

 

Ah, I see now. I stumbled into a perfect storm of a misconception of Bess plus a man crush on someone who you want to replace him with.

Carry on.

 

You know something else about the Jets QB? He's better than ours. More accurate, more aggressive, sees more of the field, looks off defenders, plays faster. I'm not his biggest fan, but he's better than ours and he's shown improvement.

Somehow my posts are being construed as 'one player away' or 'just a QB problem'. Still, folks have their heads in the sand if they don't see the problem we have at QB IMO.

 

Yeah.. Right!!!!

He had two receivers who were good, perhaps great, and one prima donna who could be great if he would actually catch a ball when it counted.
He had two older running backs who were dodging tacklers IN THEIR OWN BACKFIELD because the interior of the offensive line looked more like a revolving door on the first night of the opening of the Macy's Christmas shopping season! The only Star player on the OL was dinged up royally half the year, the other quality player needed to join Weight Watchers, and the three in the middle barely knew each others' name, let alone how they played.
He had an almost tight end - who probably should have gotten tight before he took the field.
The offensive coordinator was the most offensive part of the entire unit - unfortunately he was offensive to us, and not the opponent.

Yeah. He had a lot of tools - broken, worn out, and the wrong type. It's like trying to install a window with a sledge hammer, ice pick, and a tooth brush.

 

Why would we want to give up the guy who's already the NFL's top slot WR for a guy who's 'arguably' the top slot receiver in the draft?

If you want Jernigan, draft him. I don't think it's wise to go trading the best of anything away from this offense. Especially after lamenting its lack of the depth. Davone Bess represents what (little) is right with this offense. Not what's wrong. And the guy has gotten better each season.

Does anyone think Bess couldn't do a lot of what Wes Welker has done when he got with a top QB? He's quite good.

 

I used to always think the line made the back. Until we got Ricky Williams in 2002. Then I realized the back truly makes the line.

The OL needs help, as does the RB position. But my point is, our WR's are better than this QB has shown them to be.

To that point: When we traded for Ricky, the line was, "He'll always get you four yards. But he's not going to break the long ones." And that wasn't a bad assessment at the time.

Well, Ricky shed weight, got his college speed and explosion back to lead the league in rushing while catching 47 passes. All of the sudden he's a home run hitter. And it surprised defenders, even though they'd seen it on film.

Brandon Marshall was a pretty explosive guy for his size back in college and earlier in his career. He's healthy now and working on getting it back. No reason to believe he can't.

 

Nope. He's thrown for his career, exactly two more TD's and the same amount of INT's. Henne has thrown for 500 more yards in less games. They also have identical QB ratings save for an extra .1 on Henne's.

Lol nope. Henne has a 61.1% career rating to Sanchez's 54.4%. Don't say that's because of dink and donk passes because they both average exactly 6.6 yards per completion. Sanchez threw 278 passes. How do you throw that little and be so inaccurate. Henne threw 490 and is 7% more accurate.

When you have Santonio Holmes and Braylon Edwards downfield, you can do that. When your OC doesn't call short Max Pro plays all the time, you can go deep. When your Running game takes people off your back, you can go deep. But never mind the 6.6 ypc both of them have. You just feel a certain way.

He sees it well enough to lead the league in dropped INT's.

Based on what metric. Using what qualitative or quantitative analysis do you make this claim? He looks off the defenders and leads the league in dropped INT's? He must have thrown 800 passes last year to do both. Oh wait, he threw 278 passes vs. Henne's 490. Seriously, he threw 490 passes last year even though he missed the Bears game and part of the Titans game. He was also benched in the Patriots game.

Sanchez does play faster. He still plays like **** though.

Lies and statistics. He's not nearly better than our QB. Simple and plain.

 

So would you not say that it wasn't Henne but Marshall's lost explosion that held him back? If he was damaged goods, how can you seriously then claim Henne fully held him back? You have to apply your arguments to each other to weed out the inconsistencies.

 

Exactly. If there were better prospects available then going after the QB would be my #1 goal, but desperation and Henning's horrific performance have caused many to elevate this year's prospects above what they are and to rate Henne below what he is.

 

They do, that is how bad Henne is.

 

Top "slot WR" in the league? Getting a little carried away aren't we? Bess is a nice player no doubt, but he's not a dangerous player, more of a nuisance than a threat. He's only effective in the slot, if you put him at flanker or split end he's an easy cover. Meaning, unless we go three wide Bess isn't an effective weapon. He doesn't stretch the field, doesn't create big plays, but he does outperform the fans' expectations, which counts for a lot more than I realized.

 

Take of the blinders man. You keep talking about the WRs as individuals and it doesn't work that way. They are all possession WRs. None of them stretch the field, Bess is only effective in the slot, Hartline has never made a play in his career. Marshall is constantly bracketed, Fasano is an easy cover, the rest of our WRs & TEs aren't NFL material to begin with. As a group, they are easy to cover. Add to that Henning only sent 3-4 guys into the pattern most of the time, we had one of the worst running games in the league (no play action game), we lacked a credible threat out of the backfield, and it should become clear to anyone not just looking for a scapegoat that our offensive woes transcended the QB.

Which game did we lose b/c everyone was playing well except Chad Henne? Which game did we have a solid running game but the passing game fell apart? Which game did our WRs go off and start making plays? How exactly are you supposed to attack a defense w/ Polite, Ronnie, Ricky, Cobbs, Hilliard, Mastrud, Epps, Nalbone, Moore, Wallace & Kevin friggin Curtis? Marshall, Hartline & Bess a re a decent group, but they cant do it alone, especially when they are hurt/injured.

 

This post deserves double fist pumps and a flying chest bump.

 

That my friend is a lie. :lol:

Most of the time? If you said Henning max protected most of the time you'd be more accurate.

 

I love this.

Is it not true unless it's a statistic? I've seen him look off defenders. You can hear Simms and Co. talk about it if you need a better source. I've seen him throw a better, more accurate deep ball over his career than Henne.

In short, you'd have a hard time convincing me that Henne would be a good quarterback in NY. He'd be better, but not good enough and not better than Sanchez.

And it's funny, you make a lot of the arguments I've made against Sanchez since early last season. Still doesn't mean Henne's better. 'Feeling' has nothing to do with it. My eyes tell me Sanchez is better. Doesn't mean he'll be great either.

'Clearly better than Sanchez' isn't why Henne was benched 'indefinitely' 8 games into last season, or had the cuffs put back on after Cleveland.