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Draft Review w/ Ireland: "If our board is right, we killed it"

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by FinNasty, May 1, 2012.

  1. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Right. My point is that simple rhetoric can change fan opinion from "I need to see wins" to "I know a plan".
     
  2. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I think you could argue almost anybody was the third rated TE at some point. Most everybody seemed to agree on the top 2, but that third spot was a revolving door.
     
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  3. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I just don't know that any fan opinion would have changed just b/c he said "we killed it" if he also hadn't drafted Tannehill and talked about how highly he had him rated a year ago (among other things). It would have just been hollow rhetoric as your post implied. In my experience, people are convinced by different things. There was a large group that kept saying Ireland will never take a QB in the first. Once that happened, a large percentage of that group became supporters. But part of that group was still saying that, he only caved to fan or owner pressure. But he then explained how he had been evaluating him since last August. That converted another percentage of that group. My point is that if more people now believe in Ireland, it has more to do with the substance than with the one line of rhetoric.
     
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  4. dsteve

    dsteve Banned

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    i think the draft was okay. I really like picks 1 and 2 and won't blame ireland if tannehill falls flat because I've watched almost every throw he's had in college and def like what I see.

    the rest of the draft however...well it's pretty suspect. I'd need to one of those WRs show some promise. Lamar Miller not get injured and vernon contribute or show promise.

    However in hindsight if you get two long term starters from any NFL draft it's a pretty decent showing IMO.
     
  5. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    IMO, you're conveniently leaving out the part about his balls being an inch away from a bandsaw.

    I'm disagreeing with your attribution of desirable qualities to his current position. Good GMs aren't good GMs because they happen to be good scouts. Praising a GM for being a good scout misses the broader job description, so I don't see how you can attribute scouting ability as a checkmark in Ireland's defense. He's not a scout. He's not even a scouting director. He's a roster manager. He hasn't been a scout for five years. He oversees people who oversee other people who oversee scouts.
     
  6. dsteve

    dsteve Banned

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    But my understanding is that we have a lot of cap room after this season is over even after we pay wake and resign Long, the only two vets we should really worry about.
     
  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Look, you have to do what your boss tells you to do. Or is that not how it works all of a sudden? Parcells says don't talk to the media and follow my blueprint.

    Then you're disagreeing with yourself cause I didn't make that argument. I'm very, very clearly talking about the transition from scout to GM. I said that transition can take time and it can take longer than that when you have to follow Parcells stifling rules. So again, you aren't really arguing with me.
     
  8. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Let's just hope Jonathan Martin turns out to be as impactful on the OL as Stephen Hill, Rueben Randle and Alshon Jeffrey are at WR.
     
  9. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    Well, other than Fleener and maybe Green, those were the only 2 TEs that were mismatches with speed/size. Everything I've seen had Egnew rated as #3 or #4 behind Fleener and Allen, with the other being Orsen Charles. And Orsen Charles doesnt have near the size, nor the speed, that Egnew has.

    Most draft reviews I've seen really liked the Egnew pick. The Vernon pick drew more question marks from what I've seen...
     
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  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    How would you quantify that? What are your parameters?
     
  11. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I would say that being a good scout is a very desirable quality in a GM. You have to make the final call on picks (unless you're under a Parcells or a Jerry Jones of course). To do that you have to make the call amongst sometime varying scout's reports. You will spend some of your time watching film, or players in person. You don't see all those GMs at the Senior Bowl just to network. They're mostly there to evaluate players. So while there are additional duties that come with being a GM, you still have to be able to evaluate talent. In fact, I would say that it's still one of the most important things you do.
     
  12. Agua

    Agua Reality: Try It!

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    Of course, if he's sitting there wondering, "wow, all my high rated picks still around here in the 4th and lower rounds", it may be his evaluations are bad.
     
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  13. dsteve

    dsteve Banned

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    lamar miller dropped because of his shoulder issues. he was the number 2 talent at RB but most things i read.
     
  14. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    My point is, and this is why I dislike Ireland, he's SO concerned with VALUE as opposed to just drafting good players. Martin was considered a 1st Rounder by many people, but because he was there in the 2nd IRISH felt like he needed to take him. Hill, Jeffrey and Randle were all there. So if I'm understanding Ireland correctly, he became a slave to his board, a slave to value. Honestly, the Martin pick reminds me A LOT of the Merling pick. Many had Merling projected as a 1st Rounder, and when he fell into the 2nd the Dolphins seemingly couldn't wait to grab him. VALUE.
     
  15. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Right. But why were those WRs available in the second-round?
     
  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    If he is drafting VALUE he is drafting good players.

    What does Merling have to do with this? This example reminds me of how posters like to use something in the past that did not work and try to make it relevant to something that happened in the present, even though they have little to do with each other.

    Martin pick reminds me of a team that REALLY needs a right tackle. The team in the 2nd round had a 1st round grade on the right tackle, so they drafted the right tackle because he fit a need and is very talented.
     
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  17. dsteve

    dsteve Banned

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    except the martin pick filled a vital hole for us and any WR taken there would have been a project. Just because our team has nothing on the roster at wr doesn't mean you pass on the superior player which also happend to be value and fill that gap at RT. Do you remember how bad it was last year with POS columbo?

    it would be the same if we had the third pick and took tannehill over one of the blue chip talents just because our qbs on the roster sucked. Would you pass on trent richardson for tannehill? think about that one because we don't have a huge hole at RB and we do have a huge hole at RT.
     
  18. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    And why was Martin available in the 2nd Round? See what I'm saying?
     
  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Not what I'm asking.

    You said Martin better make a bigger impact then those other guys. I'm asking you for what you'll consider as a high impact for a RT and what a high impact is for the guys you mentioned, so after the season we can compare.
     
  20. dsteve

    dsteve Banned

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    because they were projects. The only WR worth taking that high IMO for a team like us would have been blackmon and maybe floyd if he somehow fell to our second pick.
     
  21. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    Actually, Ireland specifically talks about marrying the board to need and finding a match... which is exactly how drafting should be done IMO. We have a huge need at RT, and the best value on the board was Martin... so we took him. What is wrong with that?
     
  22. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Not necessarily, and that's my point.

    I'm sorry, I just didn't see RT as a bigger need than WR. You can find OL in the middle rounds, whereas the best WR's are usually found in the first two. It's just a fundamental disagreement I have with Ireland's philosophy.
     
  23. dsteve

    dsteve Banned

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    I think I'd judge his impact as positive if he comes in, starts and isnt a huge liability in pass protection.

    for a rookie WR it's hard to say because his stats might be better somewhere else especially since our offense is horrible. say maybe 60 balls, 5 tds? I'm just throwing numbers out to see what u guys think.
     
  24. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    We had a huge need at WR, too. And again with the VALUE :lol:
     
  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Because whether people are willing to admit it or not, WR's are flashier picks so ergo they are more "important" because they are shiny.
     
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  26. dsteve

    dsteve Banned

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    well guess how many balls your stud wrs catch if your quarterback is on his ***?
     
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  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I don't understand how you can't see that.

    Also you can find WR in the middle rounds just as well. The best RT's are generally found in the first two rounds as well. The best at any position is generally found in the first two rounds. Mostly because those players are generally more talented.
     
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  28. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    It was a loaded statement by me. There's no way Martin could make as big an impact at OL as those other guys could at WR. It's the same argument (and I know you agree with me on this) I've made with regards to QB. It's why Ryan Tannehill's impact would be exponentially bigger than a guy like Fletcher Cox or Coples or whoever the Hell some people wanted the Dolphins to draft.

    Look at the Colts draft. Notice a trend there? They took ALL impact players on the offensive side of the ball. That's how it's done.
     
  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    We had a huge need at both WR and RT.
     
  30. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    But RT isn't as crucial to team success as WR.
     
  31. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Out of all the arguments, this is the one I hate the most. Brandon Marshall caught a ton of passes with the worst RT in the league on the Dolphins O-Line last year. So to answer your question: 81. He'll catch 81 balls.
     
  32. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Sure, assuming they are all equal talent.

    The problem is that its highly unlikely they are all equal talents. And if thats the case, would you rather have Michael Oher or Chad Jackson???

    I'm also not sure how you can say anyone is an impact player until they've actually played and made an impact.

    And while the Colts may have gone after skill-position guys, its not like thats the blueprint. The Green Bay Packers select OL early, as do many other great teams.
     
  33. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I can never agree with the idea that offensive linemen are not IMPACT players.
     
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  34. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    A good RT is much more crucial to success than a bad WR.
     
  35. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    And how far did that get us?
     
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  36. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I do not agree. I can look at last year and see how crucial the RT was to the teams success.
     
  37. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    No, they're more important because this is a passing league now.
     
  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    They're rebuilding, we aren't. They are a 2 win team without a QB. We are 6 win team without a QB. We're a better team than they are with fewer holes.

    Its really about points for you. I submit our offense would have scored more points last year if Moore wasn't behind the 30-ish ranked oline running for his life and wasn't forced to throw it to Captain Drops 5 Tds. If you had it your way, we'd ignore the oline and still have Captain Dropsomuch.
     
  39. dsteve

    dsteve Banned

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    Flashy WRs and DBs are the easiest things to hide on a football team, you can't hide a horrible Oline, see pittburg who basically drafted all O line and they don't have a legit number one WR either. I'm pretty sure the people in pittsburg know more about the sport especially you or anyone else posting here. You build a team from the line out, period.
     
  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    In a passing league teams are going to put more emphasis on pass rush, which increases the importance of having a RT that can handle a pass rush.
     
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