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Eagles offered a 2nd rounder and Brandon Graham for Dion Jordan a couple months ago

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by LBsFinest, Apr 10, 2014.

  1. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    Should we have taken this offer? I don't think it's enough to convince Miami to give up on Jordan after only one year.....Brandon Graham and a 1st might be though.

    http://www.pottsmerc.com/sports/20140409/grotz-trading-for-jordan-would-make-sense-for-eagles

     
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  2. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Yeah, you're not giving away a top 3 pick after only one season for a second rounder.

    I'd only trade Jordan if someone blew us away with an offer. Philly did nothing of the sort.
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I would have strongly considered this. People don't realize how good of a pass rusher Brandon Graham really is.
     
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  4. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Graham could be a stud in an every down role but he cant get an every down role til he improves against the run. I like Graham, almost as much as I like Jordan but Jordan has the better upside and probably has more scheme versatility. I think graham is best suited as a 3-4 stand up rusher, which is probably Jordans best position as well but Jordan can play in a 43 where as I dont think Graham has a real position in a 43. Hes too small and his arms are too short to be an effective 43 DE and he lacks the agility and quickness to be a 43 OLB. By getting graham I think you would be saying youre moving to a 34 (which is fine by me) but everything we have done says thats not what we are looking for on defense.
     
  5. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

    I'm not so sure I wouldn't counter with Lane Johnson and their second for Jordan. Then, turn around and look for an edge rusher in this year's draft. Plug Johnson in as your starting RT, and one less hole to fill on the O-Line.

    Obviously, they were targeting Jordan at #4 last year.
     
  6. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    You're alluding to it all over the place with your head, but your heart wants you to come to a different conclusion. ALL of the characteristics that make Brandon Graham a challenging player to figure out how to use on an every down basis also apply to Dion Jordan.

    Here's the reality.

    You're HOPING that Dion Jordan will one day be a guy that gets to the passer as frequently as Cameron Wake (which is to say, among the most efficient in the game). Brandon Graham already is that guy. And that's the god's honest truth. Do the numbers. I have.
     
  7. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    Theyre not at all alike. I looked at Grahams numbers. The last 2 years in the 34 he played well. His rookie year in a 43 he played 56 snaps.

    Im hoping Dion Jordan becomes Jason Taylor with enough scheme versatility to play in either a 34 or 43. He showed glimpses in limited playing time last year. Graham I dont have such hope for and I was (and still am) a Graham supporter a few years ago but I had the same concerns then as I do now. Thats the reality for me.
     
  8. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I like Jordan in a 3-4 a lot more than I do in a 4-3. But give him 3-4 years like Graham has had and I think he'll be a significantly better overall player. I have to assume Philly feels the same way to offer that trade, and that Miami agrees if they turned the trade down.
     
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  9. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If true(I believe it), the front office seems to continue to have pretty high hopes for Jordan.
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Brandon Graham was INJURED the year you're criticizing him for only playing 56 snaps.

    And if you have done the numbers then you know that Dion Jordan pressured the quarterback from a 4-3 End position on 11.94% of pass rush snaps. That's good. And I'm in position to know exactly how good that is, so take my word for it that's pretty good.

    But Brandon Graham rushed the passer as a 4-3 defensive end (not as a 3-4 outside linebacker, as a 4-3 defensive end) a total of 205 times in 2012 alone and produced 45 pressures. That's an incredible 21.95% pressure percentage. That is effectively like having a 12th player rushing the passer on your defense and 2 of your 12 players are both Dion Jordan.

    As for his career as a whole, Brandon Graham has rushed the passer 490 times as a 4-3 defensive end (again, NOT as a 3-4 outside linebacker) and produced 86 pressures. That's a 17.55% pressure percentage...on par with Cameron Wake.

    In his LEAST effective year as a 4-3 defensive end, which was Graham's rookie year, his pressure percentage was 14.01%...which is still SUPERB comparatively to the group of 4-3 defensive ends.

    Keep in mind I'm not even counting his work as a 3-4 outside linebacker. Not counting it. If you want to know how effective he's been that way then I can tell you he's rushed the passer as a 3-4 outside linebacker 158 times and produced 24 pressures...which is a 15.19% pressure percentage.

    That percentage is VERY GOOD for an outside linebacker, but it's not as stellar as his defensive end work. And it probably explains why the Eagles are thinking they should monetize him. He's been primarily a 4-3 defensive end since college.

    The other reason the Eagles may be looking to move on is injury-related. Graham has had some injuries in his career and a twitter follower tells me he's had microfracture surgery which would be bad news for his potential career longevity.
     
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  11. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Coyle was unusually candid in saying that Jordan wasn't playing bc of his run D deficiencies. If DJ cleans that up he would become a tremendous asset with or without a Wake style pass rush capability.

    A capable edge run defender that can be a threat as a pass rusher from virtually any spot on the field while also being able to play hook/curl/flat zones and cover TEs man to man down the field as well. Has there been a player like that in the NFL, ever?
     
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  12. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Boik says that Graham and Jordan are different. If you believe they are then Graham is the guy that probably fits with Miami better. He's the guy that rushes the passer as a defensive end with Cameron Wake-like efficiency but who gets less efficient when you put him at 3-4 outside linebacker. On the other hand, Dion Jordan is the guy everyone thinks won't have his value truly unlocked unless you're playing him as a 3-4 outside linebacker.

    It's therefore easy to see why the Eagles thought their offer might appeal to Miami. It's not so easy to see why Miami continues to try and jam a round peg in a square hole.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Brandon Graham did indeed have microfracture surgery in December 2010.

    That certainly throws a monkey wrench in his value going forward. I'm no doctor. I don't know how likely it is to affect him and at which stage of his career. I would have to consult with doctors on it.

    Here's what I do know. When he got healthy in 2012, he pass rushed from a defensive end position in 4-man alignments and he was superb. Extraordinary efficiency. He was less extraordinary doing the same from an outside linebacker position in 2013...but still pretty extraordinary overall.
     
  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I wouldn't offer Cameron Wake. You don't give up superstars in their prime, IMO. And he's still in his prime. People talk about him breaking down but the way he takes care of his body it wouldn't surprise me if he kept playing this way into 34-35 years old. And even when he starts to slow down he's still going to be a guy you want on your team because A) even a slowed down Cameron Wake is one of the most effective pass rushers in the league, and B) he's a TREMENDOUS locker room presence. Not to mention it would send your locker room a terrible, terrible message.

    Even though I like Brandon Graham...and even with this year's 1st and next year's 1st...it's not enough. This year's 1st is a low pick and next year's 1st is probably going to be even lower.

    I consider deals like this to be something you do on video games but not something an NFL team does.
     
  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Exactly! Your entire hope for trading for those first round picks would be getting a player like Cameron Wake. I am not a statistician, however I am sure the chances of getting a player as good as Cameron Wake is much lower than actually keeping Cameron Wake.
     
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  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It makes sense to think of it your way. Especially when you consider that Cameron Wake still seems about 3 years away from starting to break down, and even if you "win" and grab a guy as good as Cam Wake, you're going to start having to pay the new guy a king's ransome in about 3 years. And in the mean time he probably wasn't near as good as Cam Wake would have been for 2 of those 3 years.

    Just seems like a bad way to go about your business. Would be different if Wake was not so ridiculously good and such a ridiculously good worker and locker room guy that demands accountability. I mean the mere fact that players felt compelled to go up to him and personally apologize after the Jets game for not making the playoffs...tells you everything you need to know about the idea of trading Cameron Wake.
     
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  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Unless he has a major injury, with the way he keeps up his body the break down might not be that dramatic or he becomes a Trace Armstrong only good at pass rush type player

    I don't want to get rid of him at all. Miami got him for a great deal, he isn't complaining about the deal.
     
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  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I agree with 100% of this. Even when he starts to break down all it means is you start putting him on more of a pitch count and having him come in on pass downs like Trace Armstrong and if you manage to get him 400 pass rush snaps in the season (highly doable) he's still getting something like 60 pressures, of which 8 of them are sacks. And in the meantime, great locker room presence, great football character on the field (making all the right plays at the right times). And you have that at a fair price because as you say he's currently WAY underpaid for what he's putting out there.

    John Abraham is the guy I would compare him to. He's going to be 36 years old this year, was 35 years old in 2013. And he was STILL a 14.3% pressure percentage guy at outside linebacker. And in Atlanta in 2012 he was still a 13% pressure guy at defensive end, and in 2011 he was a 15.5% pressure guy. In 2010, it was 16%.

    Keeping in mind that the "best" guys outside of the elites (which are Wake, Abraham, Graham, a few others) all hover around 12 to 14%. So even with Abraham starting to "lose it" at 32, 33, 34 and 35 years old he was pressuring the passer at about 13 to 16%. And you know what he'll probably do at 36 years old next year? Probably still be damn efficient getting to the passer.

    Basically if Wake's career patterns after Abraham's then Wake will still be valuable for 4 or 5 more years. What I would do if I were the Dolphins would be totally commit to that and focus on making him a Hall of Fame player. Because that's what he is. He's a Hall of Fame player, whether they vote him in or not.
     
  19. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    From the Eagles perspective:
    http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/...les-brandon-graham-second-round-pick-dolphins
     
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  20. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    I think I probably do that. Pass rushing is so valuable
     
  21. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend Club Member

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    the next dimension
    Lane Johnson, Matt Tobin, and Graham we'll talk.
     
  22. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral Staff Member

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    nope... and I liked Graham coming out of the draft a few years ago. The ceiling for Jordan and the pick you have invested in him are too great to give up on now. And since no team is willing to give up a top 10 pick in this year's draft for Jordan, that is essentially what you are doing.
     
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  23. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    Only way I would have traded Jordan was for a stud olineman and a pick. Graham might be good but...jordan might be great
     
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  24. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    In effect they were offering a 2nd rounder (#54) and a practice squad guy ?? No thanks... Besides, if they wanted him badly, they must know something about what Jordan's capabilities are so why would we trade a #3 overall and a second rounder (the pick we used to move up for him) for a pittance ??

    No Thanks...
     
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  25. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Eagles offered a 2nd rounder and Brandon Graham for Dion Jordan a couple mont...

    Just under two sacks per season in four seasons and 19 tackles all last season over 16 games. I can see why Hickey said no thanks. I understand about the pressures, but this is not a guy who can get to the QB. Jordan's upside is phenomenal.
     
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  26. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    b/c there is history between the franchises. We were *** raped by them before, so why wouldn't philly try again?

    If true my immediate response would have been dial tone.
     
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  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    When did Miami trade with the Eagles?
     
  28. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    AJ Feeley?

    Gordon?
     
  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Oh yea! I forgot about those two.
     
  30. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    A.J. Feeley
     
  31. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    McNabb actually laughed during an interview when asked about the trade.
     
  32. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Best trade we did with Philly was Keith Jackson the Tight End from Oklahoma...That was pretty fun

    Jordan is a more talented Jason Taylor...and my mental associations with his name is Dion Sanders and Michael Jordan.

    You want to trade a Ferrari for a couple German cars? Muffled laughter would 've been my response, I mean we are trying to win the whole damn thing, aren't we?
     
  33. Killer Bees

    Killer Bees Bringin' the Ruckus

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    I would of loved to see video of philly's war room when we traded up for Jordan.
     
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  34. Alex13

    Alex13 Welcome to the NEW Miami Club Member

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    Lamar Gordon was from St.Louis
     
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  35. Alex13

    Alex13 Welcome to the NEW Miami Club Member

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    was it a trade really ? i thought he was a FA, the first FA after that disastrous Plan B system got axed
     
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  36. Boik14

    Boik14 Admin Club Member Retired Administrator

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    So he was injured in 2010 and in 2011. He couldnt start in 12 or 13. And thats the difference between a 3rd overall pick and pick 54 in your opinion? Grahams numbers from 2010 and 2011 based on PFF's ratings are mediocre. They scream situational rusher. He is not and never has been a starting caliber 43 DE. He was a big reason the team moved to a 34 in the first place.

    3 sacks and 7 hits in 2010 in 273 pass snaps (those numbers were barely different- and they were slightly worse- then his fill in Jaqua Parker that year)...those are the stats from his lone year as a 43 DE. Last year he barely played for a team that desperately needed a rusher opposite Cole. Why is that?



    Miami could definitely use Jordan better but he isnt out of place entirely in a 43. They just arent maximizing his ability. Personally I like Jordan best as a 43 DE. Let him sub in for Vernon and Wake and keep them fresh or move him to DE and shift Vernon inside on passing downs a la Justin Tuck.

    He was only extremely efficient if you factor in hurries but hurries are extremely subjective and they dont mean youre getting to the QB and actually hitting him; it just means youre affecting or rushing his throw.

    Regarding microfracture, here is what I do know from discussions Section and I have had regarding Amare Stoudemire....it comes with an expiration date. In other words, it is expected that you will need a second one. I forget the exact reason.

    This basically mimics what I am saying though I cant seem to find out why: http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/10/23/sims-is-stoudemires-knee-reaching-its-expiration-date/
    This one is a little more insightful... http://www.recoverypt.com/tag/microfracture-surgery/
     
  37. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Your probably thinking Lorenzo Booker who we traded to them for a 4th rounder.
     
  38. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    Best case scenario for Jordan is that he plays around 270, can set an edge, efficiently rush the passer and cover the Rob Gronkowski's of the world down the field.

    Not to mention, his floor is what?...a versatile situational pass rusher?

    Not sure graham has that potential, and they have invested too much in Jordan to just opt out after 1 year.

    Jordan has a chance to be special. Some sort of aldon smith/cam chancellor hybrid.
     
  39. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    First off you're interpreting the PFF data incorrectly.

    This is 2012:
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/da...eason=2012&stype=r&pos=4dp&teamid=24&filter=0

    This is 2011:
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/da...eason=2011&stype=r&pos=4dp&teamid=24&filter=0

    This is 2010:
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/da...eason=2010&stype=r&pos=4dp&teamid=24&filter=0

    All of those are data from his time as a 4-3 DEFENSIVE END.

    This is 2013:
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/da...eason=2013&stype=r&pos=3op&teamid=24&filter=0

    That is from his time as a 3-4 OUTSIDE LINEBACKER.

    Them's the facts, Jack.

    The big reason the Eagles moved to a 3-4? I'll give you that right now. CHIP KELLY. Second biggest reason is Billy Davis. Had virtually nothing to do with Brandon Graham.

    I know what hurries are, and they're not as subjective as you think. Especially within the context of PFF's consistent and very well-detailed methodologies which lead to results which are cross-checked. They don't get every one of them right, but they're very consistent across the board. If we're suddenly (and kind of conveniently) saying hurries don't matter, you and I are *never* going to be on the same wavelength on this subject (defensive ends/pass rushers). Ever. We might as well drop the subject and never discuss pass rushers again.

    That's what I'm afraid of with him. Microfracture is bad news bears, and it fully explains why the Eagles want to get what they can for him even though he's one of the most efficient pass rushers in the game. May even explain why they kept him on a tight pitch count in 2012 & 2013.
     
  40. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not a chance in hell, Dion Jordan will be a fine passrusher, among other things, and let us not forget gentle children, Graham is far closer to being a FA then Jordan, in a cap world, that is also a factor.

    This area is one that simply boggles, Jordan played limited snaps, was effective as a passrusher and a coverage player, and yet some allegedly football ppl are considering him a bust, after a season.

    I think this is a case where Coyle lack of creativity coupled with Philbin having a stick up his *** could lead to a trade where..the Dolphins franchise looks very stupid once again.
     

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