Looks like we came out alright in that comparison, the only caveat I'd add is we did pass on Clay Matthews for Vontae Davis, BUT we also had JT/Porter and Wake so he would not have made tremendous sense for us.

Which does go to sort of show that a Vet player should never be allowed to be a roadblock.

 

I think you need more than just names, more context. Where they were drafted, what kind of players they are.

I mean, consider the tackles. You've got Jake Long on there, and you're comparing him to what? Sam Baker and Bryan Bulaga were some of the worst starting Offensive Tackles in the NFL last year. Russell Okung was solid, and Michael Oher went from looking like a very good RT to a sup par LT. Those names don't really belong. You are not at this point happy you drafted any of those players besides maybe Michael Oher. That may change, but the reality at this point? Not so much.

There's other stuff on there like that. You can't compare Ziggy Hood and Periah Jerry to Kendall Langford. Phillip Merling, who isn't on the list, is a much more apt comparison. Etc. and so on.

 

Now to be fair here, what should have happened was drafting Matthews anyway, if there has been 1 Theme over the last 15 yrs in Miami, for all 5 regimes, it is they will let the presence of a Vet cloud taking the Best Player in the draft, for example Pat Willis in 07, we had 33 yr old Zach Thomas, we did not 'need" him.

That has happened time after time after time in Miami, the one time it did not was taking Jake Long when Vern Carey was coming off of a good 2007 season at LT, otherwise.

The Steelers secret over the yrs is they never let a Veteran player DQ a better draft prospect, like drafting Ziggy Hood or Larry Timmons or Woodley.

 

Not to mention success in percentages. Average NFL team hits about 40%. I'm too lazy to go through it all.

 

Exactly, for the Steelers, they took Mendenhall before they "needed" him, they do so consistently, the Dolphins on the other hand will pass on a BPA for a need, for example Pouncey this yr, sure he is a fine prospect "but" the Steelers would have taken Kerrigan, or Ingram, though they would have taken the Rb the yr before like Javhid Best.

 

I was agreeing with you Pod and I was also pointing out that for me personally it is the best way to go about drafting. I've mentioned this many times here and usually the response is we are fine at that position for now. BPA is not necessarily always better than need but you get the best talent that way IMO.

 

Or this year, with getting Chris Carter from Fresno St in the 5th for gawd sake. It is like all the other teams must pass him up, so the Steelers can get their next stud pass rushing 3-4 OLB prospect at a bargain basement point in the draft. Just like they did with Greg Lloyd, Joey Porter, etc, then too, UDFAs like James Harrison. No team identifies talent that fits their system better than the Steelers do

 

I agree about the talent acquisition, but keep in mind, in 2009 Wake was just coming into the NFL and Matt Roth had been effective in 2008, we were 4 deep at OLB as it was, however the Packers traded up to draft Matthews, we could have made that move instead they went with Davis to make up for losing Andre Goodman to Denver.

 

Nail on head. Taking Matthews would have been a classic example of BPA over need. It would have set us up with the best set of OLBs in the NFL. Instead of getting an instant allpro relentless playmaker with a career path headed in the direction of the hall of fame, we got a good corner with potential to be great. I'll take instant impact over potential anyday, given the age is the same.

 

I think the Steelers have been significantly worse than the Dolphins over 2008-2010. They've bombed a lot of high picks, and I don't think Mike Wallace and Mike Pouncey turn it around. Mendenhall I think you're overrating pretty badly, a 4.2 yard per carry back in the 1st round isn't anything to write a song about.

 

YPC is among the least effective of Stats, Mendenhall had what..1,200 yds and 10 TD's?

Back to back 1,000 yd seasons, they also tend to not over value some positions early in the draft, but always hit on their #1 picks which is Ireland like.

 

No that is hindsight GISH, recall Roth did not sickout until TC started, prior to that we had JP/JT/Wake/Roth, the #25 overall for a #5 lb at the time?

Wake and Roth would have been Top 5 in the NFL for OLB duos.

This is one of the areas that the "don't mess with us" policy came back to bite us, no question about that one, Roth wanted an extension and they simply were not going to put up with his tactics for getting one...period.

 

No, it's not among the least effective stats. It's a measure of what a player does on a per-carry basis, and how you differentiate someone who was extraordinary from someone who was just durable enough to carry a workload and little else(*cough Mendenhall cough*). He had a good 2009, but if he's more like his 2010 or hell, even the midpoint between on his career, you could have found someone to do that for a heck of a lot cheaper.

 

Never agree with that one, RM had back to back 1k seasons, and 300 plus carry seasons, something that according to the current regime, cannot happen as "the pounding is to great", a Feature Back with a mid 20's pick? Well worth it.

Steelers also learned that having one back to rely on..tends to work rather well, "we" used to know that in Miami until Saban showed up and winning seasons were common, without *gasp* a "franchise" Qb.

 

While we did have some good draft picks there, I'm pretty sure most of those teams were drafting late in rounds while we were drafting mid-early in the rounds.

 

We're talking about the relative merits of Mendenhall, not your weird franchise back fetish. Not to mention, you know, that the Dolphins run game in 2009 was quite a bit better than the Steelers, and that Mendenhall's best.

 

True, now in 2010 the Steelers were what..11-5 or so?

The idea that the pounding is to great is simple nonsense, we pretty much were forced to do so since Ronnie B tended to be fragile, now that he is more then likely leaving Sparano should learn from the past.

 

I think Shaun Alexander and Larry Johnson are great examples of what you DON'T want from your workhorse and Mendenhall could go down that path.

LJ had back to back 1700 yard seasons. Amazingly, the first one was at 5.2 YPC. Then, his next year, he had a 4.3 YPC avg and was never good again. He got worked waay too hard. He had to keep attacking to get his and it wore him out. Before Alexander's record year, he was averaging 4.0 4.3 4.4 and 4.8 YPC. The three years before he averaged 4.8 YPC, he was working very hard. His record year, he averaged 5.1 YPC, but after that, he had worked waay too hard. That's not to say the great ones can't do it. Like Emmitt Smith. It's just that Mendenhall isn't one of the great ones and running backs are a dime a dozen.

Jamaal Charles had 1,467 yards, but averaged 6.2 YPC. That dude will be fresh forever at that rate. 230 carries is all he needs to burst open defenses. Arian Foster averaged 4.9 YPC as an UDFA second year player. He got 1,616 yards. He's going to be fresh too. If you throw any NFL RB at defenses as much as Mendenhall, you can get that production considering he only ran for 3.9 YPC. Disgustipate, you gave him too much credit with 4.2 last year. Charles beat him by 200 yards on 96 less carries and Arian Foster beat him by 400 yards on 3 more carries only. Mendenhall wasn't that spectacular.

 

You do not need "spectacular" you need consistency and avoiding negative plays, as for "wearing the running back out" happens to every player they are not china dolls that should be coddled to begin with, they withstand the number of carries, or they do not, and they are then replaced.

As for Foster's UDFA status, is every UDFA going to play that well? Nope, which is why when you can find a feature back, you draft them, they wind up being a huge percentage of the offense, and Mendenhall was playing in the SB, was he not? Ditto Willie Parker, ditto Cory Dillon, and Antwan Smith and Alexander etc.

Add in Dolphins history with such an approach and the reason why I bang that drum should be obvious, "we need a franchise qb!", would be nice, a better running game is attainable and preferable for what we have now.

 

I don't agree with leaving out the players added by trading picks to get them. Marshall and Fasano were big additions and we have them by using draft choices to get them. Add them to the comparison and I don't see anyone better.

 

Ok, the Steelers were 11-5 because they used one back to get lesser results than another team did with two backs.

 

Odd isn't it? IDK why it works out like that, the one feature back just works better then the rotation of two backs, and by feature back I mean 280 or more carries.

Take 09 for example we ran the two back system, Ronnie B went down in wk 10 or so and RW would up with 1,200 yds with Hilliard playing his backup.

 

If using the Steelers as the gold standard, it must be kept in mind that they've had years of organizational continuity to get to where they are. That's why, among other things, a coach like Cowher can retire and yet they can hire a new coach and move on without skipping a beat. They've also had all these years of continuity to build a roster where they can draft without regards to position. We are not there yet, but if Ireland and company are gone after next year, then it will just take that much longer to get there. You simply can't underestimate this type of organizational continuity. It doesn't necessarily guarantee anything, but the best organizations in the league have it. And the rosters of these teams reflect this.

 

There can be bad continuity as well though, for example Millen staying with the Lions 2 yrs more then he needed to stay.

 

But they're not the gold standard. The Dolphins have drafted better than them the last few years.

2008

1st round- RB Rashard Mendenhall
2nd round- WR Limas Sweed
3rd round- OLB Bruce Davis
4th round- OT Tony Hills
5th round- QB Dennis Dixon
6th round- Mike Humpal
6th round- FS Ryan Mundy

The only actual contribution from this draft was Mendenhall, whose production isn't particularly great for where they drafted him, and a single passable game from Dennis Dixon. Limas Sweed and Bruce Davis are unmitigated busts, Hills is a non-contributor despite a horrible OL situation.

2009
1st round- DE Ziggy Hood
3rd round- OT Kraig Urbik
3rd round- WR Mike Wallace
3rd round- CB Keenan Lewis
5th round- CB Joe Burnett
6th round- RB Frank Summers
6th round- DT Ra'Shon Harris
7th round- C AQ Shipley
7th round- TE David Johnson

Mike Wallace is the single good player in this draft. Ziggy Hood is not very good, was forced to start due to injury this year, and the Steelers spent a 1st round pick on the position for a reason this year. Kraig Urbik is no longer on the team. Keenan Lewis has 43 career snaps. Of the rest of those players, David Johnson has turned into a mediocre part time fullback.

2010
1st round C Maurkice Pouncy
2nd round OLB Jason Woirlds
3rd round WR Emmanuel Sanders
4th round OLB Thaddeus Gibson
5th round OT Chris Scott
5th round CB Crezdon Butler
6th round Jonathan Dwyer
7th round Doug Worthington

Pouncey played very well, but again, no one else really did anything. Woirlds got minimal snaps, Sanders got on the field which is more than can be said for most of the Steelers picks in the first three rounds but his production even as a rookie isn't anything to write home about.

 

For those arguing about Mendenhall, you've got to remember that the Steelers had debatably the worst offensive line in the NFL last year. Colon went on IR before the season began, making an already bad line worse... not to mention that every starter except Pouncey missed regular season games, forcing them to sign and start practice squad guys and shuffle tackles and guards where they don't belong (i.e. Ramon Foster and Trai Essex at RT). Oh and they almost exclusively ran the ball weeks 1-4....and the opposing defenses knew it.

It's not like 2009-10 was any better. They had Colon, but their center was Justin Hartwig.

Considering how often Mendenhall is hit behind the LOS, I think he does pretty well for himself.

Also, for what it's worth Emmanuel Sanders did pretty well in the 2nd half last year. He deserves some credit. With a year under his belt, I don't think 500 yds and 5 tds is an unreasonable expectation. He's very fast too, he would be very good once Hines retires and more targets come his way. You also forgot Antonio Brown, who I have similar feelings about.

 

While I only used the Steelers as an example because many posters seemed to be doing so, it does illustrate the point. They've become a very successful franchise because of the cumulative years of at least drafting decently if not spectacularly, (and doing similarly in FA). They can make a couple or a few good picks each year and just build upon their earlier successes. They don't have to have to hit the bullseye with every pick because they've had years of continuity to build a deep and relatively talented roster. It also doesn't hurt that they've drafted a top 10 QB, but that's another discussion altogether. The continuity of the organization has given Rothlesberger a solid and deep supporting cast.

 

I agree with this 100% but I want to add something everyone seems to be forgetting.

We keep mentioning continuity on the field, but look at the continuity on the sidelines; the Steelers have had just three coaches in the last 41 years!

 

Perfectly valid claim, but this is a testament to why Ben Roethlisberger is a Hall of Fame quarterback. I guarantee you that Tom Brady or Peyton Manning would have QB ratings less than 80 (if they weren't on IR) behind that line.

Ben is annually the most hit and beaten up QB in the league. The fact that he's so large and mobile allows him to avoid and truck defenders that would force sacks or poor/rushed throws from most other QBs.

 

Ben R even prevented the Kraken from taking him down for a sack, Wake had him wrapped up and could not get the sack.

Sad thing is, Jemarcus Russel could have been the same sort of player he just did not have the fire in the gut, aside from the 3 pd lunch burrito he had for lunch, to be a great Qb.

As for the Steelers if you look at Dis's list one notices they typically hit on 2 guys but can hit on 4 guys, in a single draft.

 

Well true, but is a good continuity, they run the 3-4 and they run the football, that is Steelers football and it makes it easier to draft and sign FA's and what have you, in Miami we have switched over everything a bit to often for any continuity to really develop.

Then again, Bonamigo should have been fired, that is a move the Steelers wouldn't have made.

Also think the Steelers success allows them to have perspective, in Miami back to back 7-9's and "worst team evah! mediocrity!" blah blah, takes time to build a roster and and an identity after the desert that was 2003-2007 in terms of talent acquisition.

 

I think this often goes hand and hand with front office and ownership continuity. They know the value of acquiring and then keeping a good head coach and coaching staff. A coaching carousel generally doesn't lead to long term success on the field.

 

And again, there you go. How long have the Rooneys owned the Steelers?

It's really admirable how they run it almost like a mom and pop store lol

 

lol...I freakin love it...''RELEASE THE KRACKEN''..

Love it Padre, you have one uped me in the nickname dept...well done sir..

The kracken..lol

 

This is right, and points to the development of a strong roster as being as important or more important than the QB. It's still a team game.

Believe me, I'm jealous too, because I was a fan during the years we were that type of organization. I personally think Ireland has the talent to bring us back to being a top franchise if given the chance by the city (the fans) and the owner. If he's fired in the near future, then we'll be taking a step back in the building of this franchise into that stable, successful organization that we see in teams like the Steelers, Packers, Pat's, etc. The Dolphins were a storied franchise for many years because of the stability we had throughout the team.

I think Ireland will acquire the quality QB we need eventually (if he hasn't already). I have no doubt he knows the importance of this.

 

It's been done before, but yeah, how about evaluating the draft 2003-2007. If you want to see why we've been a struggling franchise recently, that evaluation will supply most of the answers.

 

This is one major reason why I felt it was a four year plan for this regime...3 years after such futility is ridiculous expectations.

 

The draft success and failures are not much different for those teams. Hell, all of our choices are half chance, but what really separates the great teams from the not so great teams was the great teams happened to hit on drafting or finding a franchise or high quality QB. We can compare and evaluate the drafts until the cows come home, but until we or any other team finds that type of QB we will not be successful. This is not meant to be a bash Henne. He will HAVE to come in THIS year and prove he is that guy. That's it. That would be great, but if he doesn't, than not much else will matter and even our draft success stories will end up being wasted and we'll continue to be waddling in mediocrity. Sorry. Sad, but true.