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Extreme Poverty grows in US

Discussion in 'Economics and Financials' started by padre31, Nov 6, 2011.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...out-the-poor-that-will-absolutely-astound-you

    Eh, this is rarely discussed, which is one of the reasons why I hit on the theme of increasing self reliance as Federal Govt spending is at an all time high, but it is not stemming the growing number in deep poverty.

    However, no matter how much one may practice effective self reliance, there is no substitute for a cash flow from a job, and those aren't being created.

    So to my worldview, the next step is to open mini businesses, which then delve into the gray area of receiving Govt largesse and making a mini income to supplement it.

    Which is a topic, to me, which is also unaddressed.
     
  2. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    Since when did you become a liberal?
     
  3. pocoloco

    pocoloco I'm your huckleberry Club Member

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    I don't understand how a concern with fellow Americans makes one a liberal or a conservative. That should transcend political perspective.
     
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  4. Desides

    Desides Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The issue isn't sufficient amounts of concern, it's how best to alleviate the problem, if one exists.

    In this instance, the books were cooked for political purposes, and to suit the worldview of the current head cheese.
     
  5. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I'm not, what I am, or trying to be, is someone who offers facts for consideration and discussion.

    This is a reality for a growing number of Americans, to me the question then becomes "what next"?

    On many different levels.

    To me, the economic genius of America is such conditions do breed intense, motivation, and creativity and what have you, however this is extreme poverty, even by .Gov standards, should nothing be done? if something, then how much and what?
     
  6. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, it should, and perhaps it shouldn't, as the solution lays in which political perspective has the ideas that will work.

    The odd thing is, the Gov is so involved in the economy that the first impulse is political, not economic, for my outlook it disconcerts me that the wealthiest place in the US is no longer Silicon Valley, it is the ring of plush estates just outside of DC.
     
  7. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    I have actually seen an uptick in the work people are doing. I do high end basement finishing and I can say people are spending money. I have signed 3 in the last 2 months and getting ready to sign a forth Friday. I have to tell you though that I have tried to hire 4 different guys in the last 2 months.

    The guys I actually hired had to have only 5 qualifications:

    1. No tattoos on face, neck or arms. Hidden don't give a ****
    2. Have transportation
    3. Have common sense, and be respectful
    4. Speak English
    5. Show up on time

    None have made it more then 3 days working . All have quit for various reasons. It is unbelievable how lazy people are.......screw them. One guy told me he was just going to go get food stamps. It was easy he said..4 of his other friends got them and they only have to work every now and then. If I needed him every now and then, he could use the cash. I should call him.......sure I will - when hell freezes over
     
  8. pocoloco

    pocoloco I'm your huckleberry Club Member

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    It think 'cooked' is too strong. It's been quite common to measure inequality using Lorenz curves in economics and political science for decades.

    Purchasing power is informative, but this measure of inequality is also useful. The Cubans, for example, had much higher purchasing power relative to other Latin American countries, but it was the internal disparities that contributed to their revolutionary unrest, not the realization that their poor were better off than the average Bolivian.
     
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  9. Eshlemon

    Eshlemon Well-Known Member

    Poverty growth is not surprising. We've had almost 2 years of a 9-10% unemployment and recession from 20-30 years of a debt consumption economy. With the biggest jump of debt consumer buying stuff with money they didn't have and/or unsustainable debt/income rations from the usually solid middle class.

    Not sure what your interest, but think "green" business's may face some squeezing and look elseware. When Barnake's inflation hits like he wants...and the staglation he didn't...guess thats food for your mini-busiess...Padre Noodles?
     
  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, add in the lack of income and wage growth among the non 1% and everyone but the top is being squeezed and has been for years.

    Now do keep in mind the paradox of "le't shop at Walmart they save me money!" and 'Dude, where's my job".



    I have a few ideas, and "green businesses" could find their niche, the primary drivers of that ideal are urban professionals, ie, the upper echelon of the income food chain.

    Read some thief stole the copper sword that was on Lincolcn's tomb, that is sort of a sign of how bad things are for some folks.
     
  11. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    Sorry I kinda got backed up, but I was being sarcastic about my "liberal" remark since me and Padre go way back to old POFO days. Anyways, I read an article that people in my age demographic(18-35) are a whopping 68% poorer compared to the same age demographic 15-20 years ago. In other words, in the early 90s when my parents were just getting on their feet at roughly the same age I am now(Im 25 now and my parents had me young), they had 68% more purchasing power than I do now. 20 years ago, if I was 25, I could afford to buy a place to live, own a car(maybe two if I was married), be able to furnish the house and buy appliances(with credit likely too), be able to afford health insurance, and live modestly, if not somewhat comfortable. I'm 25 and still living with relatives trying to work my *** off with two jobs just so I can save enough to live on my own, in a much cheaper area than South Florida for sure.
     
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  12. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yessir, this is a reality for millions of people that is just not reported in any serious depth or on people's minds.

    There is an entire generation who pretty much is not approaching American Dream type of standard of living, more like post WW2 recession standards, or the Carter Era standards.

    That said, the key for me, and one of my interests is...so now what can be done, what can people accomplish, for themselves, to make things better for themselves?

    Until such a serious, rational, discussion is held, or better yet, becomes a part of people's thinking, the personal economies of millions of Americans will be rather hopeless really, imo.
     
  13. We have so many contributing factors that I'm not even sure where to begin.

    1. Everytime we print more money it robs everyone of the spending power they have.

    2. The more the gov spends, the greater the tax burden it needs to put on us and robs us of our spending power.

    3. The gov needs to stop preventing larger businesses from failing. It is hard enough for a small business to compete against corporate buying power and with the gov assisting them it makes it almost impossible.

    4. The progressive tax system we use penalizes peoples success. In essence, at least to a certain extent, it does not encourage people to work harder at earning more.

    5. Unequal trade balance between exports and imports are hurting us

    6. Illegal workers who wire money out of the country robs our economy of growth.

    7. Artificaly esculated prices on essential commodities like energy decrease our spending ability.

    There is not one solution that will fix what is broken and what needs to be done is a painful reality that people do not want to face. If I were king I would:

    A) switch to the fair tax
    B) Cut the federal gov budget by 50%
    C) Eliminate all gov subsidies that cost us more then we get in return for them
    D) impliment tariff fees on imports and fees on money wires that leave our borders.
     
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  14. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    ..or, the Globalist system is concentrating wealth into the hands of the top 5% of the income demographic to the detriment of everyone outside of the top 5%?

    The fascinating thing about the 68% decrease is educational level virtually does not matter, everyone has taken a haircut save for the top income earners, who are getting massively wealthy, BA's and even PhD's.

    Taxation is also at the lowest level it has been at since the income tax scale was first foisted on the public as a "soak the rich" cannard in 1917, and yet, the trend is for wealth to accumulate at the top at a stunning rate.

    So do tell ShulaGuy, what, exactly, would lowering tax rates further accomplish? Isn't the ideal tax rate in your philosophy -0-, and things such as Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid have to be abolished?
     
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  15. Eshlemon

    Eshlemon Well-Known Member

    More than doubling the number of college graduates over the last 20-30 years means past incomes are not going to carry the same value in the economy as previous except for most all the best of the best, masters, which have far outpaced the economy's growth. But even after demand skyrockets tuitions (or equal increase number of schools, especially medical), those with degrees do still get significant more money than those without...higher education consumers will need to be smarter in making their choice in schools, going to community college first, etc.

    The trend affecting the disparity in wealth is the amount of debt that has accumulated at a stunning rate, especially by the usually solid middle class. Lowering tax rates, or even just extending Bush's would help de-leveraged households short-term, but adds trillions more to the debt and you have start cutting into mandatory spending...or just kick it down the road for others to deal with.

    If you want to believe its by some grand conspiracy, fine. The top 5% and governments can be just as stupid to enact economic plans that threatens the PTB, economic instability, as the rest of us with and our economic instability, debt consumption. But given the track record of the results of market and economic manipulation, that backlash on the 5% is going to be huge boon to the under 95%.
     
  16. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Problem being, the perceived value of Community college is quite low, I happened to catch a show on MTV that featured a NJ dad talking to his daughter about going to CC to save money, she literally burst into tears and wailed about how "that was for losers", the dad punked out and ponied up the outrageous money for Rutgers tuition.

    Even when she lived close enough to home, the mandatory one yr in the dorms, at 18k, made no sense at all.

    That is the story of the American Economy in a nutshell Eshlemon, people have lost the Power to say "no".



    To listen to Walter Williams and others, that is because the "middle class" has moved into the wealthy class, the fact the lower middle class and working class have not then moved upwards to fill the void is Problem #1 in the economy.

    :lol:

    Conspiracies require secrecy Eshlemon, there is no secrecy to this, you, I think, are old enough to recall Ross Perot speaking about "the giant sucking sound of jobs going to Mexico" only at the time, know one could have known that even those jobs would wind up in China.

    Only a dunce, or a fool, or those foolishly optimistic could not have seen this coming, no need for a conspiracy.
     
  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree I drink your milkshake! Club Member

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    That is the main reason I went to college is the thought that Community College was for losers.

    If I had to do it over again, I would have gotten my AA and then transferred to a real college. AA is a much cheaper way of getting the BS classes out of the way. In real college you spend a lot of money to take classes that are BS. I have zero need for my 40 or so credits of Humanities or Liberal arts.
     
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  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Marketing! Basically you were convinced that Community College was less then worthless through no other means then that being used.



    Econ, Basic English etc etc etc

    The difference in money is also simply incredible, like 5k vs 35k depending on mandatory dorm policies.

    But there it is, and that is but one of a host of things that "we" do that make -0- sense from any standpoint other then perceived value.

    Basically, Americans are behaving rather dimly in a get smart world and it bothers me to no end.
     
  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree I drink your milkshake! Club Member

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    Agreed. The advice I give everyone who asks me is to go to CC get your AA. It saves you tons of money, especially if you do not know what exactly you want to be.

    I went to college because it was the next step, not because I had a goal in mind.
     
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  20. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, to tell a bit of a story to you, or to anyone who wishes to bother reading it:

    Was at the public transport station this afternoon waiting on my ride, and was minding my own business but happened to overhear a conversation between this young dude and his boy, and basically it went like this:

    "Yeah, so I got arrested for a DWI, and my "sherry" bailed me out for 500 dollars, 3 days later my probation officer called me to tell me to turn myself in, she was going to violate me, so I'm packing while she is talking and I got out of town for a couple of months, "sherry" called me and told me that I had wasted the power bill money, her fault, she put up that money right"?

    Now, I don't blame the dude, in a sense, he is right, isn't he?

    Old friend who I've known for yrs has a family, on his wife's side, that is constantly in trouble with the law, middle class values types, kids take the CC route, or won athletic scholaships, on minimal budgets, they simply put the local county jail's phone number on "call block" so they will never be called for "500 dollars for bail".

    That to me, is the difference between kinda dumb, and "get smart", if you don't have much money to begin with, why mess around with that young dude and then after finding out how much trouble he has been in, put the power bill money up for bail?

    I can understand the "but I love him!" stuff, but then again, why **** around with a screwball when times are so tight for your family?
     
  21. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    i have been studying the german model and i like it. the nordic model is unworkable at the scale of the US imo

    funny thing is, we work more than them and are more productive than them and yet are compensated less

    the post-1980 world is the "race to the bottom" contributing to the fall of wages that necessitated access to credit in order to supplement consumption and savings (houses as retirement accounts). dont be misled that most people bought 2nd houses out of greed. it was desperation. people in the 40s started realizing they no hope for a comfortable retirement. only the hopeless double down at the casino
     
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  22. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, agree, and disagree, meaning America still has a host of opportunities, at every income demographic, the difference between now and say 10 yrs ago is now there is less margin for error or mistakes.

    Meaning the "girlfriend" should have not messed around with that dude, and it cost them, for the middle class the double down at the housing casino did not pay off either.

    Now if that money had been put into say..gold, in 02 it was 345 pr oz or so, but instead of sitting on it like a hen on an egg, it should be flipped and put into something else.

    You bring up a common point Maynard, and to me the real hay to be made in the US is in reducing costs at every possibility, and to do so by choice and strategy instead of only when you "have" to, by then it is to late so to speak.

    "if" one has just a modest amount to invest, check out the bowser report, google it and you'll see.
     
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  23. I am not sure what it is your asking me or rather how its relative to my post. I never said lower taxes. The fair tax does not lower tax burdens it makes it more clear on what your paying and to whom your paying it too. It also does not penalize people for what they earn but instead tacks its burden onto the back end, at the point of purchase, giving the consumer the option of not buying a product and avoiding any taxes associated with that purchase.

    I am not an advocate of a 0% tax policy. That would mean 0% government and no national defense. I acknowledge government has a limited role to serve the greater good of society. The debate for me is where to draw that line between the private and public sector and how much of the two is appropiate to overlap. There is also a question of what should be handled on a federal level and what should be done at a state level.

    SS Im not sure what to do about it. It is too expensive to keep the current model and its unfair to not give people what they were promised to get out of it after they have been paying into it. The gov entered into a contract with them and should honor its obligation but if it means bankrupting the nation, then what? It needs to be reformed I just do not know exactly how.

    Our healthcare system is a huge ripoff. You can put medicare/medicade into the whole mess along with insurance companies, obamacare, and peoples lack of attention to how much medical services cost.
     
  24. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    I have a question for those wanting a fair tax. How is a fair tax really fair if a millionaire and I both pay say....20%? 20% is nothing to a millionaire but alot of to someone making $15,000-$30,000. Every fair tax proposal I've seen seems to be another tax scam.
     
  25. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    If I'm not paying taxes now, why would I support such a tax scheme with a vote in favor of one?

    That assumes my dollars and the wealthiest 1% dollars have the same practical value, and that is not the case.

    That is one the burdens and genius's of Federalism, people are free to vote with their feet and go to a lower tax State, I see no need for overlap, and even much local governance beyond the ability to support it by the populace.

    And logically, the end of your position is 0% taxation, "if" reducing taxes provides benefit "X", then eliminating them would provide even more of that benefit as the scale slides downwards.


    Eh, they will simply raise the age limit to draw benefits, it is a safe ploy.

    Well, average age has went straight upwards since the Govt got involved in healthcare, but sadly as well, like the logical end of lowering taxes means reduce them to 0%, the logical end of providing healthcare means the Govt will run it.
     
  26. Lets say you spent your entire salary of 30k you would pay 6k in taxes total. If the millionare spends his entire salary he would of paid out 200k in taxes. Both paid 20%.
     
  27. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not neccessarily, the reason being if it funded future benefits that employers are not likely to offer, then it makes sense, however the way DC works is if they can get their hands on any pool of money, they will take and use it to buy present voters with giveaways.
     
  28. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    r, the millionaire can simply purchase items offshore, meanwhile I've just been stuck with a 6k tax bill previously I did not have...and that is in my financial best interests..how?
     
  29. That is one of the obsticles in convincing the poor that they should contribute something to the tax system. Why should people who contribute nothing to the system get a say on how the money collected from others is spent? How is that fair?

    It does not assume money has the same practicle value in fact it does the opposite. It assumjes the wealthiest will spend more money and in turn pay more taxes. It also eliminates all loopholes and makes paying taxes a straight forward process.

    I do not subscribe to your logic. I do not want a privatized legal system or military. Some services are best left at the hands of the government. I just think our current government is trying to do more then it is capable of doing. Many of the services that are currently provided can be better provided by the private sector.

    Do you think its practicle to tell a blue collar worker they need to work into thier 70's before they can retire? Thier bodies can not keep up. Same goes for thier minds in many cases. It is not practicle to ask people to keep people employed who are not capable of doing the work required.

    I was not argueing that the quality of healthcare has not improved. I am arguing that it has become extremely expensive since HMO's became the norm for insurance. the flaw is in the 3rd party payer system. People want the best and the most convient services because it costs them the same each month. They do not shop around for the most cost effective care. That is not even a consideration and it shows in the out of control costs it accumilates.
     
  30. I would impliment a 20% or greater excise tax on all off shore purchases
     
  31. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    And that logic was proven untrue in the late 80's/early 90's when planes and yachts were subject to special taxes, the wealthy simply either no longer bought them, or bought them offshore.

    As for "obstical", indeed, best interests and all of that.
     
  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Won't work the wealthy have access to things such as holding companies or leasing companies, this has been tried before SG.

    And let me add, the wealthy also have access to the legislative pen, making it far more likely that they can avoid any such scheme successfully, wereas "I" cannot, why should anyone outside of that upper echelon be willing to roll the dice for..no measurable benefit?
     
  33. we will have to agree to disagree. Taxing peoples earnings is a bad philosophy and just as many rich people hide their earnings in the current system if not more then would in a consumption tax system.
     
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  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Philosophically, everyone should be wealthy, reality is, the communists were wonderful philosophers, their theories did not work worth a damn.
     

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