Faith and Reason

Is this more along the lines of disbelief in doctrines or in Deity emeraldfin?

For myself, when I looked into the foundational period of Christianity it became apparent that something caused Faith to be established in early Christians, but I myself did not find the various doctrines to be compelling at all.

As for reason imvho the more reason is applied, the more likely Deity exists as reason can never explain the wildly variable outcomes of any given situation.

"padre31 wrote:

Is this more along the lines of disbelief in doctrines or in Deity emeraldfin?

A bit of both padre, IMO once you start to go against doctrine you start to question the bigger picture also IMO.

For myself, when I looked into the foundational period of Christianity it became apparent that something caused Faith to be established in early Christians, but I myself did not find the various doctrines to be compelling at all.

As for reason imvho the more reason is applied, the more likely Deity exists as reason can never explain the wildly variable outcomes of any given situation

In what sense or example padre?

"emeraldfin wrote:

A bit of both padre, IMO once you start to go against doctrine you start to question the bigger picture also IMO.

Well I would say that depends emeraldfin, an expansive view or a limited one, the Epistles were not written because the early Christian Church was all of one mind, quite the opposite, it was wildly divergent but all save for the Gnostics believed in the Resurrection.

In what sense or example padre?

Irreducible complexity, just as concept taxes reason to it's limit, add in the variance of choices among people and reason fails further in my view.

Early Church history and the development of Canon/Creeds was my area of concentration in seminary.

The doctrine of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ, substitutionary atonement, the establishment of the NT Canon are all things that my study has caused me to accept even more comfortably than before. I am not sure what doctrines you have trouble with so if you are willing to share a bit more, I would try to answer you from a Christian point of view.

"padre31 wrote:

Well I would say that depends emeraldfin, an expansive view or a limited one, the Epistles were not written because the early Christian Church was all of one mind, quite the opposite, it was wildly divergent but all save for the Gnostics believed in the Resurrection.

The thing about the early church is that if things had of worked differently at the first major councils (i.e Nicea, Constantinople) then the Christian Church as we know it could be a vastly different beast. You take something like the Arian Controversy for example. There is evidence in scripture for both the arguments of the Nicene Creed and Arian Controversy. Its just that the majority chose to go one route instead of the other.

Which brings me onto something I have great problem with and that is scriptural contradictions. If two seperate verses are giving you conflicting accounts or advice then which do you go with?

Irreducible complexity, just as concept taxes reason to it's limit, add in the variance of choices among people and reason fails further in my view.

I can honestly admit that I do not know enough about irreducible complexity or even Darwinism to have a proper opinion on them

Yes I have question it in the same manner. I'll reply more later I'm going to school here in a few.

"emeraldfin wrote:

The thing about the early church is that if things had of worked differently at the first major councils (i.e Nicea, Constantinople) then the Christian Church as we know it could be a vastly different beast. You take something like the Arian Controversy for example. There is evidence in scripture for both the arguments of the Nicene Creed and Arian Controversy. Its just that the majority chose to go one route instead of the other.

In my view, a monolithic Christianity was not meant to be, the schism between East and West was going to happen simply because of the underlaying contradictions between Temporal, and Spiritual matters.

The earlier differences were come to honestly, if one thinks about it, christians were suppressed no matter their differences in doctrine.

Which brings me onto something I have great problem with and that is scriptural contradictions. If two seperate verses are giving you conflicting accounts or advice then which do you go with?

Was the account fundamentally different, at least that is the approach I take, for example Saul alternately committed suicide, or was killed by his armour bearer, the way I see it is "Saul died".

I can honestly admit that I do not know enough about irreducible complexity or even Darwinism to have a proper opinion on them

The idea that the Universe is infintely complex and while appearing to be random is actually highly ordered.

"emeraldfin wrote:

The thing about the early church is that if things had of worked differently at the first major councils (i.e Nicea, Constantinople) then the Christian Church as we know it could be a vastly different beast. You take something like the Arian Controversy for example. There is evidence in scripture for both the arguments of the Nicene Creed and Arian Controversy. Its just that the majority chose to go one route instead of the other.

There is a bias in the world, imo, to see God in a Dieist view. That is, that He did something and is now sitting back watching. From my acknowledgely Christian viewpoint, what happened in the early councils was the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit helping the Church "get it right"! Despite the appearantly different forms of Christianity that exist today virtually all would understand God as Trinitarian, Jesus as fully God AND fully human, the 66 books of the Bible as the recognized canon and so on. This happened because the Holy Spirit continued (and still continues) to lead the Church. Sometimes it happens in fits and starts and sometimes it is hard to see but I believe the Spirit is there.

"emeraldfin wrote:

Which brings me onto something I have great problem with and that is scriptural contradictions. If two seperate verses are giving you conflicting accounts or advice then which do you go with?

The answer about Saul being dead is a good one. Same is true about Judas' death. Many "contradictions' are easily understood in terms of context either historically or in the situation on the ground the "Sitz en laben". If you have a particular question I will try and help.

This is my e-mail signature:

"There is nothing wrong with belief, so long as it is not mistaken for knowledge, and it does not stifle the desire for knowing."

I think that faith and a quest for knowledge can exist side by side.

"Ohiophinphan wrote:

There is a bias in the world, imo, to see God in a Dieist view. That is, that He did something and is now sitting back watching. From my acknowledgely Christian viewpoint, what happened in the early councils was the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit helping the Church "get it right"! Despite the appearantly different forms of Christianity that exist today virtually all would understand God as Trinitarian, Jesus as fully God AND fully human, the 66 books of the Bible as the recognized canon and so on. This happened because the Holy Spirit continued (and still continues) to lead the Church. Sometimes it happens in fits and starts and sometimes it is hard to see but I believe the Spirit is there.

The answer about Saul being dead is a good one. Same is true about Judas' death. Many "contradictions' are easily understood in terms of context either historically or in the situation on the ground the "Sitz en laben". If you have a particular question I will try and help.

Being honest Ohio, I dont think this is going in the direction I originally hoped. I didn't really want to get into a theological debate with you guys about my own personal faith or indeed yours. I know if this thread continued in the same way I would end up being dis-respectful to your beliefs, which I really do not want to do.

I just wanted to see if anyone else has or had gone through the same experience I did. I used to be a good Christian. I would go to Church every week and not question my reasoning for doing so or the dogma of my faith. However when I began to think about it and actually study what my faith stood for, I then became doubtful that the particular faith I had dedicated my life to was the right one and then questioned the possibility of an after life.

I honestly did not wish to get into a theological debate with anyone nor question their beliefs for the sake of an argument. I just wondered if anyone has gone through a similar crisis of faith or rejection of ones previous faith. Apologies for any mis-understanding caused.

yup i have reservations about most pieces of faith that i've studied. which includes many known and some unknown. all i have questions about and none i've picked information up blindly. among those i've studied are christianity, buddhism, taoism, hermeticism, martinism, shinto..

buddhism and taoism the most, followed by hermeticism and martinism and shintoism are last. i've also looked into a bit of gnosticism, but not much.

i don't follow any one faith and it's bad of me because i lack direction spiritually. i have more questions than i have answers and a lot of it doesn't make sense in the fact that the big picture still isn't answered; which is what i always thought religion was supposed to help with as i think that's what most things are supposed to help with.

i'm the kind of person that needs to know why something is the way it is. if i don't i generally either don't have or won't have an interest in it. this quest for knowledge has lead me all over the place and in many different directions. i feel i'm the better for it, but the worse for an overall spiritual direction. i have a feeling one day things will settle down and i will either believe full heartily or i won't.

"anlgp wrote:

yup i have reservations about most pieces of faith that i've studied. which includes many known and some unknown. all i have questions about and none i've picked information up blindly. among those i've studied are christianity, buddhism, taoism, hermeticism, martinism, shinto..

buddhism and taoism the most, followed by hermeticism and martinism and shintoism are last. i've also looked into a bit of gnosticism, but not much.

i don't follow any one faith and it's bad of me because i lack direction spiritually. i have more questions than i have answers and a lot of it doesn't make sense in the fact that the big picture still isn't answered; which is what i always thought religion was supposed to help with as i think that's what most things are supposed to help with.

i'm the kind of person that needs to know why something is the way it is. if i don't i generally either don't have or won't have an interest in it. this quest for knowledge has lead me all over the place and in many different directions. i feel i'm the better for it, but the worse for an overall spiritual direction. i have a feeling one day things will settle down and i will either believe full heartily or i won't.

The thing to remember anlgp is to never become a member of a religion just because you have a need for spiritual guidance. I know that is not what you are saying or think about...I just want to say you don't have to be a member of a certain religion to have spiritual direction and never feel pressured to be part of a religion to get that direction. I struggled a long time with the same feelings but in the end realized that you have to just go with what your heart feels and run with it. I'm not of a particular religion but I'm at peace with what I believe, feel good for it, and feel I have guidance.

Once again I know your not saying you feel you need a religion to feel guided but I'm just sharing my advice. I'm sure you have beliefs of what are right and wrong and what feels right to you...so just go with that. :up:

"emeraldfin wrote:

Being honest Ohio, I dont think this is going in the direction I originally hoped. I didn't really want to get into a theological debate with you guys about my own personal faith or indeed yours. I know if this thread continued in the same way I would end up being dis-respectful to your beliefs, which I really do not want to do.

I just wanted to see if anyone else has or had gone through the same experience I did. I used to be a good Christian. I would go to Church every week and not question my reasoning for doing so or the dogma of my faith. However when I began to think about it and actually study what my faith stood for, I then became doubtful that the particular faith I had dedicated my life to was the right one and then questioned the possibility of an after life.

I honestly did not wish to get into a theological debate with anyone nor question their beliefs for the sake of an argument. I just wondered if anyone has gone through a similar crisis of faith or rejection of ones previous faith. Apologies for any mis-understanding caused.

OK, then I guess I don't know what you are asking for??? If it is just someone to listen to your rejection, I guess you have had that and I have been happy to listen.

Best wishes.

"emeraldfin wrote:

Being honest Ohio, I dont think this is going in the direction I originally hoped. I didn't really want to get into a theological debate with you guys about my own personal faith or indeed yours. I know if this thread continued in the same way I would end up being dis-respectful to your beliefs, which I really do not want to do.

I just wanted to see if anyone else has or had gone through the same experience I did. I used to be a good Christian. I would go to Church every week and not question my reasoning for doing so or the dogma of my faith. However when I began to think about it and actually study what my faith stood for, I then became doubtful that the particular faith I had dedicated my life to was the right one and then questioned the possibility of an after life.

I honestly did not wish to get into a theological debate with anyone nor question their beliefs for the sake of an argument. I just wondered if anyone has gone through a similar crisis of faith or rejection of ones previous faith. Apologies for any mis-understanding caused.

Sure Emeraldfin (funny how screen names substitute for actual names isn't it?), Faith is a gift, but life is hard.

"anlgp wrote:

yup i have reservations about most pieces of faith that i've studied. which includes many known and some unknown. all i have questions about and none i've picked information up blindly. among those i've studied are christianity, buddhism, taoism, hermeticism, martinism, shinto..

buddhism and taoism the most, followed by hermeticism and martinism and shintoism are last. i've also looked into a bit of gnosticism, but not much.

i don't follow any one faith and it's bad of me because i lack direction spiritually. i have more questions than i have answers and a lot of it doesn't make sense in the fact that the big picture still isn't answered; which is what i always thought religion was supposed to help with as i think that's what most things are supposed to help with.

i'm the kind of person that needs to know why something is the way it is. if i don't i generally either don't have or won't have an interest in it. this quest for knowledge has lead me all over the place and in many different directions. i feel i'm the better for it, but the worse for an overall spiritual direction. i have a feeling one day things will settle down and i will either believe full heartily or i won't.

Thats pretty much the way it is for me also. None of the religions that I have looked at over the years seem to "click" with me and like you said, when you do look at them, you come out with more questions than answers. I dont know if it is the same case for you dude, but every time I begin to look at a different faith, I try to see if it subscribes to my way of reasoning or belief.

Pretty much everything you have said there I can relate to also. Just one question I have is how does the fact that you haven't found a spiritual home (so to speak) affect your belief in a higher being?

OK, then I guess I don't know what you are asking for??? If it is just someone to listen to your rejection, I guess you have had that and I have been happy to listen.

Best wishes.

I appreciate that Ohio, cheers.

Sure Emeraldfin (funny how screen names substitute for actual names isn't it?), Faith is a gift, but life is hard.

Interesting that you say that Padre. I know that somewhere in Ephesians it says something along those lines, but is that actually the belief of certain Christian faiths?

"emeraldfin wrote:

I appreciate that Ohio, cheers.

Interesting that you say that Padre. I know that somewhere in Ephesians it says something along those lines, but is that actually the belief of certain Christian faiths?

Just my observation emeraldfin, the idea of "believe and do not doubt", but that would not have to be said unless...people would doubt in the first place..:lol:

Actually, that is quite funny to consider, a service wherein everyone doubted "

"Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today, don't know why we are gathered here today, it just seemed like the thing to do, anyway, contribute to the building fund"

:lol::lol:

"emeraldfin wrote:

I dont know if it is the same case for you dude, but every time I begin to look at a different faith, I try to see if it subscribes to my way of reasoning or belief.

Pretty much everything you have said there I can relate to also. Just one question I have is how does the fact that you haven't found a spiritual home (so to speak) affect your belief in a higher being?

I do that as well. The thing I have trouble telling myself is that some things can't be explained. They just can't. The meaning of life? Who knows. Because of this and what I said about needing to know why things are the way they are.. some days it's hard for me to get motivated to get up, but I know the unexplainable parts of life are just as if not more important than things that you can explain.

As far as letting it affect my belief in a higher power I consider the two separate issues. I said I have more questions than I have answers, but my research into various religions has provided me with some answers on an ethical level, just not on a spiritual level. That question is a whole 'nother ballgame. It has taken longer and I'm at the point now where I'm having trouble with the thought for various reasons. I used to be a complete believer of force, or of energy, or whatever you want to call it. Taoists call it "chi" so I'll use that but don't let the signpost of the particular faith get in the way of what I'm saying. It doesn't mean I don't believe or that I do, just that I'm completely unsure and I think that's because I was so frustrated with it I haven't thought enough about it since. Just because I don't agree with a certain scriptures point of view on the subject of a higher power doesn't phase me because it's not my own belief as I obviously don't subscribe to a particular system. Finding that has been incredibly difficult, but I want to be sure.

The search continues. I'm sure even after I find out what I truly do believe I'll have questions or rejections about the opposite. And that's really okay.

"emeraldfin wrote:

Over the past couple of years I have become very sceptical of religious faith and in particular those that subscribe to a higher being or place, be it poly or mono theistic faiths. This I feel is mainly due to the fact that for the past three years I have been studying such disciplines as Chritian Theology, World Religions, Philosophy and Early Christian History. What I have concluded from this is that the more I studied and developed a reasoned opinion on certain faiths, the more I began to doubt their doctrine. So basically, because my reason of a certain faith (ie Christianity) developed, the more I began to doubt its validity.

So what I would like to know is whether this has happend to anyone else or how do reasoned people still have belief in their faith, even if they do not agree with certain aspects of it?

I dont post on this board that often, but I do know that its a good place when asking questions of this nature.

i have a weekly crisis of faith lol.

to me, belief in the judeo-christian god actually makes sense.

im currently not a member of any church however. dogma and me dont always mix. authority and me dont always mix

i guess i sort of cherry pick what i like and leave out what i dont.

part of faith is accepting that youre not going to understand everything nor are you necessarily supposed to.

im not sure if i really can be of help, but its important to know that reason and faith are not incompatible. some of the greatest thinkers, writers, etc were firm believers

"emeraldfin wrote:

Thats pretty much the way it is for me also. None of the religions that I have looked at over the years seem to "click" with me and like you said, when you do look at them, you come out with more questions than answers. I dont know if it is the same case for you dude, but every time I begin to look at a different faith, I try to see if it subscribes to my way of reasoning or belief.

Pretty much everything you have said there I can relate to also. Just one question I have is how does the fact that you haven't found a spiritual home (so to speak) affect your belief in a higher being?

All that matters is that no matter what anyone tells you, it is an inner journey. Reason and Faith are two ideas that only you can do. Someone cannot give you reason and someone cannot give you faith. Many people can try, and you can also try to accept their gifts, however the truth of the matter is it is still your own reason and your own faith you are accepting. It is just your understanding of their version of reason and your understanding of their version of faith.

One of the best advice I have ever received from a book is, "The story is not about the person who wrote the book, it is about the person who is reading the book."

I know you didn't ask me the question about finding a spiritual home. I am going to answer it anyway. It affects me by not having someone attempt to push their understanding on me or try to convince me of their rightness. Generally I have noticed, even in myself, that it is very important to have a feeling of being right. Hell it shows up perfectly in movies. What does it matter if someone doesn't like the same movie as I do. However my desire to prove someone wrong shows up right when someone says, "300 sucks."

To me faith is the same way. Just to the billionth power. There seems to be a huge desire for people of faith to be proven right. Not everyone of course. There are some on this board who are very open minded and are willing to discuss other ideas.

Still I do believe that the truth of the matter is if there is an absolute truth, no one can give you a direct faith in it, just like no one can give you a love of the movie 300. They might be able to give you a thought that can shift your paradigm so you realize that 300 is one of the greatest movies of all time. Still the paradigm shift is something that you accomplished.

As Captain Planet said, "The power is yours."

When I began studying the various religions of the world what struck my was that there were many similarities in the basics. Just about every major story in the bible can be traced back to an earlier religion with different names (sometimes just slightly different). I felt that it was possible to look at the same events and come up with drastically different interpretations. My reasoning led me to conclude that there were probably basic truths and that the differences were most likely the result of man interpreting things differently or just adding their own rules for personal or even political reasons.

I think this is what your original post was asking. If not I apologize for digressing.

"maynard wrote:

i have a weekly crisis of faith lol.

to me, belief in the judeo-christian god actually makes sense.

im currently not a member of any church however. dogma and me dont always mix. authority and me dont always mix

i guess i sort of cherry pick what i like and leave out what i dont.

part of faith is accepting that youre not going to understand everything nor are you necessarily supposed to.

im not sure if i really can be of help, but its important to know that reason and faith are not incompatible. some of the greatest thinkers, writers, etc were firm believers

I understand your point Maynard and you are quite right that some of the greatest thinkers were indeed Christian/Jewish.

You made the point that you do believe in the Judaeo-Christian God |Maynard, but you do not subscibe to the dogma of either faith. If that is the case, then do you still see yourself as a Christian, Jew or indeed something else?

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

All that matters is that no matter what anyone tells you, it is an inner journey. Reason and Faith are two ideas that only you can do. Someone cannot give you reason and someone cannot give you faith. Many people can try, and you can also try to accept their gifts, however the truth of the matter is it is still your own reason and your own faith you are accepting. It is just your understanding of their version of reason and your understanding of their version of faith.

One of the best advice I have ever received from a book is, "The story is not about the person who wrote the book, it is about the person who is reading the book."

I know you didn't ask me the question about finding a spiritual home. I am going to answer it anyway. It affects me by not having someone attempt to push their understanding on me or try to convince me of their rightness. Generally I have noticed, even in myself, that it is very important to have a feeling of being right. Hell it shows up perfectly in movies. What does it matter if someone doesn't like the same movie as I do. However my desire to prove someone wrong shows up right when someone says, "300 sucks."

To me faith is the same way. Just to the billionth power. There seems to be a huge desire for people of faith to be proven right. Not everyone of course. There are some on this board who are very open minded and are willing to discuss other ideas.

Still I do believe that the truth of the matter is if there is an absolute truth, no one can give you a direct faith in it, just like no one can give you a love of the movie 300. They might be able to give you a thought that can shift your paradigm so you realize that 300 is one of the greatest movies of all time. Still the paradigm shift is something that you accomplished.

As Captain Planet said, "The power is yours."

Pretty good post there Dupree.

One thing that struck me was that you refer to how we all have our own reason. Just out of curiosity and in your own opinion Dupree, if you take two averge people from different socio-economic backgrounds, who are of the same faith (say Catholic), who have never studied their faith indepthly and get them to read the Bible for the 1st time, will they arrive at the same conclusions to each other or even to that of their own faith?

"emeraldfin wrote:

Pretty good post there Dupree.

One thing that struck me was that you refer to how we all have our own reason. Just out of curiosity and in your own opinion Dupree, if you take two averge people from different socio-economic backgrounds, who are of the same faith (say Catholic), who have never studied their faith indepthly and get them to read the Bible for the 1st time, will they arrive at the same conclusions to each other or even to that of their own faith?

I honestly believe if you take two people from the same soci-economic backgrounds, who go to the same church and make it to all of the same sermons, and the same bible study class, will come to different conclusions. They might have a lot more similarities than someone in your question, however in this life no two people have the same perspective.