Fitzpatrick 'excited' Dolphins took Tagovailoa, but still wants to play

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

So I took your challenge and after 5 minutes and 30 seconds I found 18 instances where he used his eyes to manipulate the defense.

IMO, it reinforces everyone who I saw talk about him on how his ability to read the defense and utilize both his body and his eyes to get his receivers open is excellent.

Yes there are some plays where it is like, "Ruggs out run that guy you are much faster than." I am not going to deny his wide receivers weren't excellent. However, it looks to me that Tua was able to take advantage of that.

It wasn’t a challenge. Far from it. It was just a question I posed.

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

It wasn’t a challenge. Far from it. It was just a question I posed.

I didn't mean challenge as something adversarial. More of a fun thing to see if I see what you are seeing.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

No, I shouldn't. I don't watch hours and hours and hours and hours of tape. I never played football beyond a highschool level. I am not an expert. I am at best a well-knowledged fan.

All of the videos I have watched have showed me the same thing though. That he is great at looking people off with his eyes. In fact, a lot of times when people complain in his highlights that he is just throwing to a wide open guy, I can see how he used his eyes to freeze the safety so that his guy is wide open.

It is not blind faith. I am not excited about Tua because of his size and his cannon of an arm. I am excited because of the way he can manipulate defenses at his young age.

You literally said you dont watch him play, then went on to describe how great he is at something from a few highlights. Excuse me if I find that entirely invalid.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

You literally said you dont watch him play, then went on to describe how great he is at something from a few highlights. Excuse me if I find that entirely invalid.

I literally said that I do not watch hours and hours of tape.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

Like I said it isnt necessarily an issue. I conceded those were the right throws to make based on the play happening.

However, I also dont believe using your eyes well a few times makes you elite at it either.

Tua is nowhere near the level of Manning in any of his skills so I dont think that is a good comparison at all.

If Manning was an A+ prospect, Tua would be like a B- or C+.

I respect that you actually came to your own conclusion though, and for the sake of our team I hope he IS better than I think in that area.

To me its more of an unknown because he doesnt use his eyes consistently, but again he never had to so yeah.

I disagree. Manning was not as good as Tua at looking off players coming out of college. (Actually I've watched film of Manning at his peak and even as a pro he made more mistakes every game than most fans realize). Manning was far better than most prospects, but Tua is at another level in that regard. He is far more consistent at it than any prospect I've ever seen. Really all of his mechanics are. The comparison that comes to mind is Brady. Brady's greatest strength was the work he put in. He showed promise in college, but in NE he was the guy who drilled his mechanics (footwork, eye discipline, etc.) arguably more than anybody else (and that was among a league full of exceptionally hard workers). And you could see it on the field. I see Tua as a college version of that work ethic. I think that from that Elite 11 camp on, Tua drilled his mechanics much like Brady did. Obviously Brady has done it for more than a decade and added experience against the pros, but Tua so far has drilled his mechanics for 3 or so years and had experience against the best in college. If he can continue to put in that kind of work at the pros then the sky is the limit. I do agree that it's not an issue coming out, but it is still something that he has to continue to improve.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

So I took your challenge and after 5 minutes and 30 seconds I found 18 instances where he used his eyes to manipulate the defense.

IMO, it reinforces everyone who I saw talk about him on how his ability to read the defense and utilize both his body and his eyes to get his receivers open is excellent.

Yes, there are some plays where it is like, "Ruggs outrun that guy you are much faster than." I am not going to deny his wide receivers weren't excellent. However, it looks to me that Tua was able to take advantage of that.

This is what I was talking about... Yes, there are a lot of plays where Tua just threw it to the first read. But we are talking about First-round draft pick wide receivers that are dominating college football... They are just open most of the time. When a play is called and the QB makes his read and that first option is wide open... They let the ball fly. This does not mean that Tua does not have the ability to see his second or third target and look off a safety. As has been pointed out... Just watch some film other than the highlight reels set to music on youtube and you will see he can do these things well.

"rafael wrote:

I disagree. Manning was not as good as Tua at looking off players coming out of college. (Actually I've watched film of Manning at his peak and even as a pro he made more mistakes every game than most fans realize). Manning was far better than most prospects, but Tua is at another level in that regard. He is far more consistent at it than any prospect I've ever seen. Really all of his mechanics are. The comparison that comes to mind is Brady. Brady's greatest strength was the work he put in. He showed promise in college, but in NE he was the guy who drilled his mechanics (footwork, eye discipline, etc.) arguably more than anybody else (and that was among a league full of exceptionally hard workers). And you could see it on the field. I see Tua as a college version of that work ethic. I think that from that Elite 11 camp on, Tua drilled his mechanics much like Brady did. Obviously Brady has done it for more than a decade and added experience against the pros, but Tua so far has drilled his mechanics for 3 or so years and had experience against the best in college. If he can continue to put in that kind of work at the pros then the sky is the limit. I do agree that it's not an issue coming out, but it is still something that he has to continue to improve.

You definitely see it differently than I do.

For instance even though hes very accurate on the deep ball, his form is absolutely atrocious and will probably get his leg broken at the NFL level.

He has a bad tendency of overcompensating for his poor arm strength by doing two things.

1) He often has to take a gather step forward that wont be there at the NFL level on every throw.

2) He swings his hips very wide and tends to leave his stride leg out wide.

I rdont even really see Tua as a early round prospect, but this QB class was really really weak.

He ran probably the most simplistic offense in football his first year so I dont see how one can really evaluate his ability to read a defense from that, there were barely any reads to begin with.

Last year his offense was more complicated and he handed it well, but it was still a simplistic offense without very much going on. It's basically like the difference in using crayon and colored pencil.

He hasnt had to do anything that makes me say "Wow, this guy is a franchise QB"

I see an average starter at best and a career backup at worst.

It honestly wont surprise me if Hurts ends up the better QB of the two. At least I can pinpoint NFL level skills in his game, even if he has a lot of flaws.

I hope that people on here that are far more skilled at evaluation than me are right. But I'm much like Alex. I'm a big Bama fan, watch almost all their games. I wasn't wowed by Tua two years ago when I watched him. Then with all the Heisman talk and 1st pick talk this year, I was more interested in watching him, and what I'll say is, I never found myself watching games thinking to myself, "Miami HAS to draft this kid! He's amazing!"

So, I really hope these guys like DJ/Raf/others that I really respect, are correct in their evals. It makes me feel better that these guys are excited about Tua.

"resnor wrote:

I hope that people on here that are far more skilled at evaluation than me are right. But I'm much like Alex. I'm a big Bama fan, watch almost all their games. I wasn't wowed by Tua two years ago when I watched him. Then with all the Heisman talk and 1st pick talk this year, I was more interested in watching him, and what I'll say is, I never found myself watching games thinking to myself, "Miami HAS to draft this kid! He's amazing!"

So, I really hope these guys like DJ/Raf/others that I really respect, are correct in their evals. It makes me feel better that these guys are excited about Tua.

I hope we are right as well. I want all MIami Dolphin players to succeed.

OkAY

I am the biggest Hurts fan on the planet... I love him more than his mother. That being said Tua is a pure pocket passer with great field vision... When you get a chance at a QB like that you do not pass on him.

One of the reasons I was so high on Hurts here before the draft was partly because I did not think the Dolphins would have a shot at him with the 5th pick. And I was against trading up for him. So I started to focus on other places where a bargain could be had at QB in the draft and that is where Hurts came in.

Hurts is a natural born leader... He runs like a RB... But he has the size of a middle linebacker. He is tough and strong... He has worked very hard in College on his arm and he killed it throwing at the draft.

He does not compare to Tua when it comes to finding the third receiver or looking off safeties.

Hurts is a more athletic Tim Tebow... One with a much better arm... and a much better throwing motion. Runs better also.

I see what the Ravens did with Lamar Jackson and I think a team could do the same thing with Jalen Hurts.

I was wrong about Jackson... I did not anticipate the Ravens changing the whole offense for him to succeed and to take advantage of his skill set... I saw it... and then saw Hurts killing it at Oklahoma showing he could really make a living throwing a football. So I was all on board for the Dolphins to take Hurts and change our offense around to maximise his talents as well.

That being said I am thrilled we landed Tua. Yes his injuries scare me. But his talent is off the charts... Most talent we have had at QB since Marino and it is not even close.

"resnor wrote:

I hope that people on here that are far more skilled at evaluation than me are right. But I'm much like Alex. I'm a big Bama fan, watch almost all their games. I wasn't wowed by Tua two years ago when I watched him. Then with all the Heisman talk and 1st pick talk this year, I was more interested in watching him, and what I'll say is, I never found myself watching games thinking to myself, "Miami HAS to draft this kid! He's amazing!"

So, I really hope these guys like DJ/Raf/others that I really respect, are correct in their evals. It makes me feel better that these guys are excited about Tua.

I hate Alabama and actively root against them. I did not expect to like Tua when I started my film review. My expectation was that he'd be a typical Alabama decent college QB looking better b/c of a great supporting cast. But his accuracy, processing speed, mechanics and eye discipline blew me away. I see people minimize some of that stuff and I think they're way off. He ran a full on NFL offense this past season. That's pretty rare in college. Even the RPO stuff that was more prominent the previous year added some NFL concepts as the season went on. That first year he had to learn a standard college offense. The complexity increased b/c Tua could handle it (and he had an NFL OC). That doesn't usually happen. I don't get the impression Alabama felt Hurts could handle an NFL offense. Many QBs struggle with offensive scheme changes. That was a common excuse for Rosen. But Tua seems to have gone through three different systems and learned them all. Dilfer called Tua a "one rep guy", meaning a guy who learned something in one rep. And he ran it so well. We're talking about historically great efficiency numbers. Even the QBs we think of as smart don't come out doing all the little things as consistently as Tua already does. The closest I can think of was Luck, but IMO Tua was more consistent than him.

I think him being left handed throws people off on the mechanics. Left handed QBs look different, but his mechanics are excellent. His upper body and lower body so coordinated. He seems to always be in balance. When I watched him play, the guy that came to mind was Montana. IMO Montana was a great athlete, but he lacked any size, power, speed measureables that make people say "wow". That's why people always minimized all the things that Montana did great too. But Montana was a guy who elevated that system to what may have been one of the best ever teams.

That's the stuff that impressed me b/c I don't see that in college QBs. But generally what I look for in terms of traits that translate most consistently to NFL success are accuracy and processing speed. Tua excels at those. The accuracy is probably a product of those consistent mechanics. And the processing speed is helped in part by his fast release. I saw an analysis by somebody who was comparing some college QB releases to NFL greats and they had Tua's as faster than Marino's. I'm not a guy who breaks down film to get release times down to tenths of a second, but I can say he gets the ball out very quickly.

But the thing that might have me the most excited is what Dilfer believes about Tua's drive. We can't ever know if a prospect will put in the work when he gets to the pros or after he gets that second contract and his family is set for generations. Most every prospect that makes it to NFL is a hard worker at least relative to the average person, just like most people who reach the pinnacle of any field tend to be. But the guys who are special are the ones that have insane work ethics compared to even that group. Those 1% guys like Brady or Jerry Rice are guys you would always take on your team and guys you never bet against. You can try to glean information from anecdotes, like Tua's work to improve during the Elite 11, but you never 'know'. Dilfer is convinced that Tua is one of those 1% guys. Dilfer admits that during his career he relaxed some after his SB, but he sees Tua as one of those guys that won't relax. That's why Dilfer has repeatedly called him the best prospect he's ever coached. And that list of people he's coached would include Deshaun Watson, Kyler Murray, Trevor Lawrence, to name a few.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

I hope we are right as well. I want all MIami Dolphin players to succeed.

Yeah, sorry I was a dick. It's just frustrating being a lone voice sometimes disagreeing. I respect your time, input and effort into the discussion and hope you can say you were right in the end.

"rafael wrote:

I hate Alabama and actively root against them. I did not expect to like Tua when I started my film review. My expectation was that he'd be a typical Alabama decent college QB looking better b/c of a great supporting cast. But his accuracy, processing speed, mechanics and eye discipline blew me away. I see people minimize some of that stuff and I think they're way off. He ran a full on NFL offense this past season. That's pretty rare in college. Even the RPO stuff that was more prominent the previous year added some NFL concepts as the season went on. That first year he had to learn a standard college offense. The complexity increased b/c Tua could handle it (and he had an NFL OC). That doesn't usually happen. I don't get the impression Alabama felt Hurts could handle an NFL offense. Many QBs struggle with offensive scheme changes. That was a common excuse for Rosen. But Tua seems to have gone through three different systems and learned them all. Dilfer called Tua a "one rep guy", meaning a guy who learned something in one rep. And he ran it so well. We're talking about historically great efficiency numbers. Even the QBs we think of as smart don't come out doing all the little things as consistently as Tua already does. The closest I can think of was Luck, but IMO Tua was more consistent than him.

I think him being left handed throws people off on the mechanics. Left handed QBs look different, but his mechanics are excellent. His upper body and lower body so coordinated. He seems to always be in balance. When I watched him play, the guy that came to mind was Montana. IMO Montana was a great athlete, but he lacked any size, power, speed measureables that make people say "wow". That's why people always minimized all the things that Montana did great too. But Montana was a guy who elevated that system to what may have been one of the best ever teams.

That's the stuff that impressed me b/c I don't see that in college QBs. But generally what I look for in terms of traits that translate most consistently to NFL success are accuracy and processing speed. Tua excels at those. The accuracy is probably a product of those consistent mechanics. And the processing speed is helped in part by his fast release. I saw an analysis by somebody who was comparing some college QB releases to NFL greats and they had Tua's as faster than Marino's. I'm not a guy who breaks down film to get release times down to tenths of a second, but I can say he gets the ball out very quickly.

But the thing that might have me the most excited is what Dilfer believes about Tua's drive. We can't ever know if a prospect will put in the work when he gets to the pros or after he gets that second contract and his family is set for generations. Most every prospect that makes it to NFL is a hard worker at least relative to the average person, just like most people who reach the pinnacle of any field tend to be. But the guys who are special are the ones that have insane work ethics compared to even that group. Those 1% guys like Brady or Jerry Rice are guys you would always take on your team and guys you never bet against. You can try to glean information from anecdotes, like Tua's work to improve during the Elite 11, but you never 'know'. Dilfer is convinced that Tua is one of those 1% guys. Dilfer admits that during his career he relaxed some after his SB, but he sees Tua as one of those guys that won't relax. That's why Dilfer has repeatedly called him the best prospect he's ever coached. And that list of people he's coached would include Deshaun Watson, Kyler Murray, Trevor Lawrence, to name a few.

Hurts went to Oklahoma and Ran the Air Raid which is a type of west coast offense... Used in the NFL.... Hurts proved he can handle an NFL offense.

"Etrius24 wrote:

Hurts went to Oklahoma and Ran the Air Raid which is a type of west coast offense... Used in the NFL.... Hurts proved he can handle an NFL offense.

He did run an offense that in theory is closer to an NFL offense. That said I do think the system was far less complicated than the NFL version.

Which is to be expected. Almost no college QB runs a true NFL level of complexity on offense. Probably none actually, though some are way closer than others.

Point is Hurts was very restricted running a true RPO at Bama... He goes to Oklahoma and they expect him to step in and do what Mayfield and Murray did... No restrictions... no baby steps... Hurts took the ball and absolutely balled out. He showed he could read defenses at the line ( Not like Manning or anything... but he showed promise ) he showed he could make more than one read... (Not as good as tua... but still a very encouraging sign ) He showed that he believes in his arm... He was able to grip it and rip it at Oklahoma... and again at the combine he nailed it showing off a much stronger and more accurate arm than expected.

In the NFL with Hurts you would be wise to look at the amazing season he put up at Oklahoma and then to incorporate as much of that into the offense you are running so that Hurts can shine and you can win.

You know like the Ravens did with Lamar Jackson

"Etrius24 wrote:

Point is Hurts was very restricted running a true RPO at Bama... He goes to Oklahoma and they expect him to step in and do what Mayfield and Murray did... No restrictions... no baby steps... Hurts took the ball and absolutely balled out. He showed he could read defenses at the line ( Not like Manning or anything... but he showed promise ) he showed he could make more than one read... (Not as good as tua... but still a very encouraging sign ) He showed that he believes in his arm... He was able to grip it and rip it at Oklahoma... and again at the combine he nailed it showing off a much stronger and more accurate arm than expected.

In the NFL with Hurts you would be wise to look at the amazing season he put up at Oklahoma and then to incorporate as much of that into the offense you are running so that Hurts can shine and you can win.

You know like the Ravens did with Lamar Jackson

I dont necessarily disagree. Hurts has a lot of strengths you can play to. It really comes down to him and whether he can improve some of his weaknesses, because the talent is there.

Great teams and great coaches like the Ravens identify the talents of their players and put them in the best possible scenarios to be successful. If hurts gets a situation like that I think he shines.

I say that because no matter what has been thrown at him so far he is like a Marine on steroids.. he adapts and he overcomes. He has been a tremendously positive unstoppable force.

"Etrius24 wrote:

Great teams and great coaches like the Ravens identify the talents of their players and put them in the best possible scenarios to be successful. If hurts gets a situation like that I think he shines.

I say that because no matter what has been thrown at him so far he is like a Marine on steroids.. he adapts and he overcomes. He has been a tremendously positive unstoppable force.

I'm with you. I'm on record, I think Hurts and Jake Eason are the two most talented QBs in this class. Burrow and Tua have a few advantages being presumptive starters already, but we'll see in 5 yrs.

Hurts was one of my favourite players in the draft... .In no universe can he read defenses like Tua can.. In no universe can he go to his second read or look off a safety like Tua can. Hurts has a lot of talent... He is a leader... I think he can be successful.

But if I had a choice of Hurts or Tua I take tua.... Tua is an amazing talent.

It seemed to me that while there were comparisons made between Hurts and Jackson, that most teams felt that he was a less dynamic athlete than Jackson. So there were questions about whether he could have similar success.

I read those reports also... But in fairness... Jackson refused to run at the combine... Hurts ran but he was slow... much slower than he ran at Alabama in the past... a full tenth of a second slower.... We do not know how fast Hurts really is because he went to the combine to throw not to get scouts wowing over his legs.

Hurts squats 600 pounds... more than some of the linebackers on his team in college. He is fast but he is strong... He has tremendous power... He can make defenders miss and he can run through them.

At 6 foot 2 and 240 pounds he is a bad mama jammer.

All year long Hurts continued to surprise critics at Oklahoma with his arm... The QB that was supposed to be only able to run was throwing with confidence and making difficult throws. He was not throwing wobbling ducks out there... He was throwing darts.

He went to the combine and won it. Everyone came out of the combine saying that Hurts impressed them as much as anyone.

Jackson surpassed my expectations in the NFL... I did not think he would be that good. Hurts is twice the leader that Jackson is. Even if Jackson has a touch more athletic ability... It is so close it is not worth splitting hairs over. There is no way that Jackson out works Hurts or is a better leader.

I would take Hurts over Jackson and that is saying something because Jackson has already made it in the NFL and he is kicking ass.