Flaws in Ireland's Evaluation of Players Process?

he tweeted it a while back, gimme some time i'll find it, but regardless, i have a hard time believing Parcells would choose to bring Ireland with him to Miami as his general manager if they didn't share the same philosophies dude. and im not saying Ireland had final say on any of the first 3 drafts, IF they did come to a disagreement on a specific pick or player im sure Parcells would get his choice, however I do feel like Jeff saw eye to eye with Parcells on the vast majority of the picks.

and as far as the stark contrast between the first 3 drafts and the last 2, the 2011 draft was when Sparano was still head coach, which is key because that was Ireland's first draft without Bill and yet he actually didn't change up much as far as evaluating and choosing players on his own. for instance, did Ireland take a 6-5 athletic TE in 2011? no, he didn't, he only took Egnew in 2012 after hiring Philbin, knowing that this type of TE was essential for Joe and his offense.

and we had absolutely no speed at WR which is why he almost had take a burner wideout like Gates in 2011. same reason why he had to take a QB high in this draft, Henne was gone, all we had on the roster was Moore and Devlin, obviously neither of them are the long term answer, and with Sherman here as the OC the Tannehill pick just made too much sense.

 

Parcells really liked the less experienced Jimmy Graham. Bill was plenty ready to take Graham, but only if he fell to the 4th round. I don't see Tannehill as any different. Parcells might've liked him, but I don't see him taking him at #8, especially after his Pat White fiasco.

You may disagree but I view Tannehill as a high ceiling player who carried more risk than a more established QB like Luck; therefore--- high ceiling/lower floor compared to Luck (high ceiling/high floor). Dalton was a lower ceiling/high floor guy, and I saw no comparable between he and Tannehill in that regard.

His job is on the line every year in today's NFL. {See Bill Polian}
He had a choice. He chose not to reach or trade up for a QB in '11.
Ireland didn't draft Tannehill b/c he feared for his job; he took him b/c he'd been secretly enamored with him for 2 years.
He could've first traded down and tried to recoup picks, but he didn't .

.... and those 2800 yards and 30 TDs in 2 years were much due to natural talent considering he was a JUCO QB transfer. He was far from a more polished product ala Mark Ingram, hence he was more of high ceiling/risk-reward type pick.

If Parcells liked Jimmy Graham but wouldn't grab him in the 3rd round, then I don't see Parcells taking Egnew in the 3rd either.

To each his own but I don't see him as a prototypical Parcells receiver. BJ Cunningham is (4 year starter at a big program), but not so much Matthews IMO.

I do. He was drafted more on potential & ability than polish. He's a stereotypical upside pick.

I didn't say Parcells didn't. Merely pointing out that Kearse was another upside pick rather than the safe pick of a polished player.

He missed 3 years of football prior to his last season. Small school guy. Change in position from corner to safety. Slightly undersized at 193 pounds.
Other GM's chose a safer pick in the 7th round, and I'm sure some chose a more polished player, but not Ireland.

How do you call a potential All Pro center an "extremely low ceiling" player?
This "safe pick" connotation is silly at times b/c it's not always a negative thing like people attempt to make it seem. Sometimes the safe pick is the smart pick. You can find anyone in the later rounds; it's not exclusive to centers. It sounds like you're labeling the drafting of a likely Pro Bowl center in the 1st round a bad pick. I simply disagree.

I'd like to see exactly what Ireland said.

I don't get it? If you're saying he's taking input from Sherman & Philbin and that's why we might be seeing some difference in the drafting, then wouldn't that also mean Ireland was taking input from our previously fired and terrible HC & OC from '08-'10 when he had significantly less authority than he does now? That's more of a rhetorical question b/c we all know how much of an opinionated control freak Henning was, and we know Sparano was included in the scouting and drafting process.

Seriously, you've criticized others for rationally absolving Ireland when Parcells was clearly the HBIC, but you have the gumption to credit Sherman & Philbin for our recent positive changes/deviation in draft style? Where's the consistency? Can't have your cake and eat it, too. This kind of stuff makes you seem like you have an agenda.

And the tendencies have not been the same, not even close. For one, how many times did we trade up for a pick in '08-'10? How many times did we double dip in '11 & '12? The types of Oline, WR, TE, QB, and RB are different. Line up the draft picks at each of those positions as well as the FA signings and you'll have a hard time convincing people the tendencies are the same.

Regardless, we both know the drafting has changed. We also know he's taking more risk than the Parcells era by drafting a higher percentage of high-ceiling/risk-reward players. We both know it's irresponsible to apply that strategy to every pick. Now that he's on his own, Ireland is drafting enough high-ceiling/risk-reward type players to not be considered a "safe" drafter.

 

Phillip Hunt is beasting tonight ....continuing his big pre season.

 

Pshhh!! Free Agency!?!? Are you kidding me.

 

Called it to Alen on twitter, you knew it was coming.

Seems like it takes them 2 preseasons to really get the hang of the NFL

Anyway, he was never an option, he did not fit the prototype..this is what bothered me about Ireland's Parcellian logic.

I think it is safe to say that passrushing De's and Returners can make the move South, enough players have shown they can

Cb is a bit iffy, thought Jovon Johnson could play in the NFL, but there are few Brandon Browner types

Interestingly enough, Omark was speculating Messam may be getting the stashed on the PS treatment, he can play in the NFL if he is healthy, but Thigpen would still be a nice find if he does what he does so to speak.

 

I was pretty adamant that JJ wasn't going to make the jump , not the right type of corner imo , remember Juran Bolden? he was a corner that did .

 

The more time passes, the less I understand the Brandon Marshall trade. And that's 100% Ireland.

 

Thought he could, good playmaking skills.

As for Ireland, how much of this was the staff and how much of it was just guys who lack talent?

I'm thinking of Nolan Carroll last yr, I was stunned that he did not develop into what I think he could be.

 

That's the dilemma isn't it? Right player(s) wrong coaches? Or just the wrong players?

I suppose how this draft class looks/is evaluated at the end of this year will be key. If there is improvement , production , and strong future promise then Ireland may survive. If this class doesn't do that , in other words performs like the past draft classes then Ross makes the call .

Excluding this draft , there is not a lot of promise to be seen from prior drafts imo. Production just isn't there , and thus the reason we are being dismissed as once again an also ran team .

 

Disagree, for me one of the problems has been is they will draft someone, and never play him.

For example Clyde Gates, why in the world wouldn't you send him on drag and crossing routes just to see for yourself if he can play, instead they freeze him on the bench, send him on 9 routes, and let him return kicks..see ya bye?

I thought JJerry looked good at LT last yr, this yr..nope..sorry the immortal Nate Garner will take your slot?

Evan Mathis is a fine LG for Philly, he did not last 4 gms here in 08, instead they stick a natural RG at LG?

On and on, and yr after yr we hear "Coaches know best"?

And it's not just in miami, Reggie Bush was not trusted to run the ball in NOLA, he comes here, given an opportunity and gosh, that guy is pretty good.

This is why I'm not particularly concerned with our Wr corps, they will have opportunites and some will rise and produce, we know Marlon Moore is a playmaker with shakey hands..or do we? He does not have the chances that even a Hartline had to make plays, maybe he can, ditto the rest of them.

This is one reason why Legedu makes little sense to me...why? Coaches probably feel they must have some credible Vet at Wr which is Sparanothink and with a new Rook Qb it would be better to just stick Pruitt or Fuller or Matthews or Cunningham out there and see what they have.

 

Love underdogs as much as anyone, he has not played football in a couple of yrs and has to learn the offense.

Put it this way though, would not mind giving anyone a shot, just feel he is to much of a longshot aside from Hardknocks featuring him in an episode.

 

Consistency?

 

Steelers take impact guys when they have high draft picks, we take linemen or run away from high picks with trade backs.

"Earl Thomas BAH!"

 

I don't think Parcells told Ireland pick X guy or Y guy specifically all of the time.

I think Parcells had recipes and Ireland HAD to follow those recipes. I think the wheeling and dealing was all Ireland. I think the scouting was all processed by Ireland and the draft board set by Ireland....but based on Parcells recipe. I think the Parcells recipe was allowed to be broken...by Parcells only.

I've not heard a single compelling argument to refute that.

So far, last year's draft isn't all that great. Pouncey is the star pick, but like CK said, if a center is considered to be a first round pick, its pretty much a given they won't bust. If Tanny pans out, the rest of THIS draft class and offseason is irrelevant to me, I'd retain him for one more year. But that is all based on last and this year, when I know for a fact he wasn't forced to follow the Parcells blueprint, I can't say that with confidence before that...and frankly, i don't know how anyone honestly could.

 

What's a high draft pick?

Because the Steelers last 4 first rounders have been linemen.

 

lol slow down, Pouncey will be an all pro now? he is not THAT good, relax.

 

Wait, isn't Mike Pouncey the twin brother of the 1st round lineman the Steelers drafted in 2010?
How about the 1st round guard & 2nd round tackle the Steelers took this year?
You're losing me, Padre.


Under Ireland we drafted a potential difference-making All Pro center, Mike Pouncey......
and a franchise-hopeful QB.
I fail to see how those are not considered impact players.

 

here it is: https://twitter.com/ArmandoSalguero/status/192296556672720897
Parcells told me he was. Took it back after Ireland ran it in 2009. RT @sirdibbydukes: Armando who was in charge of the odrick/misi draft?

 

As of now, I don't think they're doing anything differently.

Previously I would've said they prioritized the trenches, pass rushers, and playmakers...... but now I see us as no different.

 

Like Pouncey, DeCastro, Adams, and Gilbert?

 

I think the last high draft pick the Steelers had they selected some dude named Ben. They don't pick high often and when they do they make it count, which is what I think Padre is trying to say.

 

Ben R, Polamula, if you watch them when they have high draft picks, they take impact guys, when they have later in rd picks they go for trenches etc.

We've moved away from that talent to take blue collar guys when we are way up the draft board..it does not work very well.

Ben R 11th overall..we had the twelfth overall and traded out
Troy P-16th overall we had the 15th overall and took Pouncey

Steelers could afford to take Pouncey because..wait for it..they already had impact players, we don't and we still take blue collars guys early, or move out.

Add in they somehow manage to miss the opportunities to draft the Koa Misi's of the world.

Guys we could have taken:

-Gronkowski

Oh but it gets better in the 3rd rd

We took John Jerry, guys on the board:

-Jimmy Graham
-Emmanual Sanders

Check out the 4th rd, we traded back w/SD:

-Aaron Hernandez

We took: AJ Edds

Not an impact player was even bothered with, two Lb's, a RT, and a De.

The only impact guys Ireland has taken have been:

-Gates
-Turner
-Thomas

Guys who should be expected to handle the ball and score..wait for it..Td's(!)

 

Pouncey was the highest drafted pick in the bunch, and gosh Mr C, they could afford to do so..they already had spent picks on positions that score td's and produced with the Miami Rules "3 yrs to find out" stuff.

 

I guess so... I had meant to include Wake, but Wake was a FA signing, I guess. And not hard to 'discover' the CFL MVP, I suppose.

Still, Bess and Wake are the most often cited examples of Jeff finding great talent outside of the draft and regular free agency.

Regardless, I think he'd be best as a scout assigned to getting great players who are overlooked. That's his real gift. Surprised we don;t see any arena league guys in here. Watch though, there will be a run on lacrosse players if Hogan makes the squad. (Also good to see the John Nalbone Monmouth conduit is still pipelining big-time talent our way. woot!..... sarcasm.)

 

BUT, here is my hope:

4 headed monster at Rb, with Thigpen being our Leon Washington
Fasano and Clay and Egnew emerge into viable threats
Bess+Legedu+Pruitt+Moore all contribute at some level

I think that can happen, my worry is really the Offensive Line, even the Nacho won playoff games when the Jest OL had that massive consecutive games played streak.

 

So to summarize, the question asked to Armando was "who was in charge of the Odrick/Misi draft?"
Armando replied: "Parcells told me he was. Took it back after Ireland ran it in 2009".

Let's analyze this for the chance that it's actually true.

1. Parcells is saying it was his call to trade back and take Odrick/Misi. (which is one of the things you were blaming Ireland for, no?)
2. By saying he "took it back", Parcells is saying the 2010 draft was his.
3. By saying he "took it back", Parcells is saying the 2008 draft was also his, while 2009 was Ireland's.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean 2009 was solely Ireland's b/c we know the Pat White pick was Parcells's.
We also know Miami was very much interested in Connor Barwin, so it's highly possible based on who was available at that pick that Ireland would've drafted Barwin (who seems to fit Ireland's mold of an OLB/pass rusher to a tee). We also know that John Nalbone was a player Parcells was enamored with (he played college ball in Parcells' back yard).

4. Parcells saying he "took it back" makes sense in 2010 considering he said he chose to pass on Jimmy Graham in the 3rd round; therefore if he chose to pass on Graham in the 3rd, it most likely means John Jerry was his pick, as well as Misi over say Gronkowski.


If we remove the known 2 2009 Parcells picks (White & Nalbone) and look at what the draft could've realistically looked like, it's actually an outstanding draft:

1. Vontae Davis (I preferred Hakeem Nicks but had no problem w/ the Vontae pick considering his talent and we had no starting CB rostered)
2. Connor Barwin (we had a lot of interest in Barwin. w/o Parcells' "pet-cat" pick of White, there's a very plausible chance it's Barwin)
2. Sean Smith (might prove to be a great late 2nd round pick)
3. Pat Turner
4. Brian Hartline (solid 4th round pick)
5. James Casey (I believe we were interested in Casey. Ireland traded up for Clay; he could've done the same for the similarly talented Casey)
5. Chris Clemons (anytime you can get a starter in the 5th round it's a great pick)
6. Andrew Gardner (not a bad 6th round pick)
7. JD Folsom (might've been sacrificed to trade up for Casey)

 

Credit for signing Wake , but when you have one player with 23 sacks and the next closest is at 11 , you aren't discovering anyone that plays in a professional league.

 

That's not accurate. Ireland was given free rein to sign the UDFAs so he does get credit for Wake and Bess. Dansby is murky though b/c Parcells was known to like Dansby and Parcells was involved in the higher contract FAs.

 

I respectfully disagree.
2 of the top pass rushers in the league are Ireland's guys (DeMarcus Ware & Cam Wake).

The only other "pressure" guys we drafted were Parcells' choices IIRC. Philip Merling & Koa Misi.
Ireland had a chance to draft one in 2009 with Connor Barwin, but Parcells was instead dead set on his project QB, Pat White.

2008 was Parcells' draft. 2010 was also Parcells' according to an Armando post quoting Bill.
2011, Ireland didn't miss out on an elite pass rusher by taking Pouncey.
2012, I'll take a potential franchise QB over a pass rusher.
When Ireland has a chance to draft a pass rusher, he seems to know what he's looking for, and his success rate is quite remarkable. Outside of the Giants, show me a better discoverer of pass rush talent than Ireland and his hauls of DeMarcus Ware & Cam Wake.

 

Dude, then explain 12?

Tannehill is of course the cherry on top, but once again Rd 2..we go with a..Tackle?

Miller could be an impact player, Egnew has been ghost quiet so far aside from his Coach telling him he was awful..

This is pretty much the same approach we've used, Turner was a 3rd rd pick, Egnew was a third rd pick

Thomas was a #2, Miller a #3.

Now consider this, if John Jerry had panned out guess who we would not have to have taken in the 2nd rd?

Gates or Turner panned out would we be trying to find Wr talent in the UDFA heap?

Now I happen to like the UDFA heap, one of my operating assumptions is the Draft is way overrated as the sole means of young cheap talent acquisitions..but truth be told..these guys Ireland has been drafting have 1 collective pro bowl start in his time here.

And that is Jake Long.

BTW, anyone seen Phillip Merling lately?

 

lmao, are you Ireland's agent? lol your excuses are hilarious. the Pat White pick was agreed to by pretty much the whole front office.

https://twitter.com/ArmandoSalguero/status/192307005975826433
Yes, although that pick agreed to by EVERYONE. RT @AldoRibeiros: are you saying Ireland was responsible for the Pat White draft?

you cant just remove the pick because Parcells admitted it was his mistake and simultaneously assume Ireland didn't want to draft him at all. the entire regime obviously wanted to enhance the wildcat.

im not even gonna address the silly inclusion of players that we didn't actually draft because arguing hypotheticals is something i wont waste my time doing.

and the trade down was done with the chargers before the draft because SD swapped second round picks with Seattle so instead of their pick being at the back end of the round, they had the 6th or 7th pick in the 2nd round to offer up. that was Parcells call but again, Ireland was the GM, im pretty sure he was on board seeing as how he had a chance to get a high 2nd to re-acquire one of the picks he gave up in the Brandon Marshall deal, which i heard was all his doing.

 

A. I can't believe you're judging a draft after 2 preseason games based on how YOU, yourself, would've preferred the draft to go. If Tannehill turns out to be a franchise QB and half the other guys are major hits, then your rant is quite pointless and silly.
B. As far as taking a tackle at #2 goes....... have you seen us at RT?!!!!! It's terrible!! How can you be upset at taking a tackle in round 2 when it's the single worst part of our team? That make absolutely NO sense. If you don't care to protect your 1st round franchise QB, then that's your prerogative, but I find it absolutely irresponsible and worthy of firing.

For as much football as you've watched, it astonishes me you think a guy should be seasoned by his 2nd preseason game. I'd expect more from you than this.

That's like saying, "Turner was a 3rd round pick, Jimmy Graham was a 3rd pick". I see no correlation here.

Are you saying if Parcells never hired Sparano, Henning, and their ridiculous run-first, possession-based, ball-management offense that Parcells wouldn't have drafted Jerry, and Ireland could've used our 2nd round 2012 pick else where? B/c I would definitely agree.

Now you're judging a developmental player, Gates, after 1 year?..... And you're questioning Ireland taking a top 100 talent at WR in the 4th round? Make up your mind will you; do you want us drafting potential playmakers or not? Please stick to an argument and stay with it.

Well, now that Ireland is able to draft HIS guys, perhaps we'll start seeing that number go up. It's VERY convenient of you blame that on Ireland when Parcells ran at least 2 of our first 3 drafts and was responsible for the hight draft picks.

you mean that guy Parcells drafted when he first took over our organization? He's looked pretty good in GB based on the first preseason game. Then again, maybe there is something to the whole coaching thing.

 

there was so much stuff about White being Parcells' pick and how much Parcells coveted White that it's not even funny. All this tells me is you didn't keep up with the team in 2009.

No, the entire regime obviously did not. Are you forgetting that, after Parcells stepped back, Ireland fired Parcells's wildcat guys [Sparano, Henning, and David Lee]?
There's a reason we brought in Connor Barwin and payed him heavy attention, and if you look at his ability compared to DeMarcus Ware & Cam Wake [2 of Ireland's guys] you'd see a REMARKABLE similarity among the 3, making it not shocking in the least that we liked Barwin. Based on both who was available at our 2a pick and the guys we were interested in, I see no one who fits more than Barwin.

Ahhhh.... but you're completely FINE with being silly about blaming Ireland for trading back in 2010 even though YOU told me the 2010 draft was Parcells'.
Yep, it's not ok for me to make the inclusion about players we were actually interested in, but it is ok for you to make inclusions about guys like Dez and Earl Thomas <sarcasm>...... so, yeah, you actually do waste your time doing it.

sorry but you just said a whole lot of nothing.
You saying "I heard" means nothing.
And it's disturbingly funny that you want to blame Ireland for everything, but when it comes to situations where you admit Parcells was in charge you still find a way to blame Ireland for Parcells' decisions. lol. You don't have an agenda at all, do you.

 

By all means, let Ireland have the credit for making Karlos Dansby the HIGHEST paid LB in NFL history...

 

You're probably the only person who would give Ireland a negative mark for that signing.

 

Especially when something ridiculous like 17 teams were all sniffing at Cam Wake.

 

Doubt that, that hasn't been a home run and most people will admidt that. Dansby has never played up to his contract, he is the ONE player we decided to break the bank on and what has that gotten us? A top 10 LB at best who's paid like a Pat Willis.

Not a good ROI.