Flaws in Ireland's Evaluation of Players Process?

See that's where I disagree. He's a top 5 linebacker, IMO.

And I don't think many see him as a disappointment like you do.

 

That's because most fans are happy we have a solid player at an important position. Few care what he costs because that's not what fans normally care about.

And I'm as critical of the pro bowl as anyone, but the guy has NEVER been selected to a pro bowl....your the highest paid LB in football (3rd as of today) and you can't get selected to a pro bowl? Something's not right there. And no I don't think he gets robbed every year.

 

Most free agents get more than what they are worth anyway... I think we did fine with Dansby. He's a top 10 NFL linebacker and the most versatile linebacker at that.

 

I've stated he is a top 10 LB although it's close, most versatile?? Well I just do not agree but that's not even important.

Either way I don't think paying someone top 3 money to be a top 10 player is GM'ing genuis.

 

LOL at you using the Pro Bowl.

 

Yea, lofty expectations I know.

Guess the whole wide world just doesn't know enough about Dansby to see his brilliance and he gets Sooo overlooked every year...poor guy.

 

Before anyone jumps to a knee jerk reaction to vilify the Egnew pick, please take a look at Graham's rookie season. Through week 8, he played a total of 41 snaps. From week 9 on he played 193 snaps. He had 5 catches for 49 yards through week 8. He had 26 for 307 from week 9 on.

 

No, what I'm basically saying is using the Pro Bowl as a reason a player is overrated is LOL worthy. The fact that you used it shows you have an issue with Karlos Dansby.

 

Yea, I do.

He hasn't played up to his contract or even close, as a fan I have a big issue with that. The only headlines he makes is reporting to camp overweight or complaining about Chad. He has underwhelmed and NOT WORTH HIS CONTRACT.

 

Like I said, I disagree.

We'll agree to agree that you're wrong.

 

Who was in the room that was going to stand up to Parcells and tell him the White pick would be a bad idea? Just because everyone else acquiesced on the pick does not mean they liked it.

The swap of 2nd rounders between Seattle and San Diego was part compensation for SD trading Charlie Whitehurst to Seattle. That trade was made on March 17, 2010, well before the draft. I don't see what difference the timetable of that trade has to do with being proof the Dolphins traded out of the 12 hole before the draft. The trade was announced when the Dolphins were on the clock. I'd like to see what proof you have that Miami traded down with SD before the first round actually began.

 

No way! Graham caught only 49 yards in his first 8 games? What a bust!! Saints were stupid for that pick!!!! Fire that GM!

 

In his last two seasons in Arizona, PFF rated him the 27th and 19th ILB/MLB. In his two seasons in Miami, they rated him the 12th and 13th. Even with his terrible start last season he still was able to rank 13th. I'm not going to take the time to divide the season, and compare ratings but I'd say it is a pretty safe bet he ranked higher than 13th over the last 8 games of 2011. He did have only one negative rating after week 4 and that was week 17 where he played only 10 snaps.

 

Out of curiosity, who is most versatile linebacker in your opinion then? Dansby could play strongside, weakside, and middle... not many linebackers can do that IMO.

I think your view on the salary cap is rather simplistic, IMO. The market and how recent the signing was dictates the price more than anything... You could say we overpaid for a Dansby and I understand that but when you want a player of that caliber on the market, you have to overpay. It's just how free agency works.

Is Mario Williams worth $100M/6 years? How about Julius Peppers $84M/6 years? Charles Johnson signed a $76M/6 year deal. Jared Allen? $73M/6 years. Dwight Freeney? $72M/6 years.

Now what did Cameron Wake just sign for? $35M/5 years. Ireland has had his fair share of bad signings, no question about it. But he has also had some very nice ones too.

It is what it is, FinO... if you want to add a piece or two via unrestricted free agency you best be prepared to pay out the *** for the best available player at certain positions.

 

IMO, top 10 middle or inside backer. Not top 10 overall, to include the outside guys.

 

Of all things one could complain about on this team, it seems to me anything about Dansby should be pretty far down the list. It's like just looking harder than necessary for something to ***** about.

 

I think if you combined the rankings for the last two seasons, he would rank within the top 5. I say that because he's consistently very good where you have other linebackers fall off from one year to the next. With Dansby, you know you're going to get a very good, versatile linebacker who can play against the pass and run. That's not something you can say about other linebackers ahead of him, like Bart Scott.

 

It gets rather muddy when you begin to compare linebackers in the different systems (3-4 vs 4-3) so it's really tough to say when some linebackers job is mainly just to rush the passer. When I am saying he is a top 10 LB, I am more or less just taking into account 4-3 LBs and a 3-4 ILBs.

 

I'm not critiquing the signing in terms of dollars, I'm talking in terms of highest paid players at their position. Ill say it again, Dansby is a nice player just that his play doesn't justify the cap hit.

If you don't want to call the signing a bad one?? Ok, but to the people who want to credit Ireland for making Dansby the highest paid LB ever!!!??? Can't justify it.

 

Bart Scott? Maybe 2 years ago.

 

I meant ahead of him per PFF. I don't think Scott is better than him.

 

The debate in hand is if Dansby was a good signing, kinda the topic with Ireland's evaluating abilities. Your confusing the issue.

 

Bart Scott's run defense rating in 2010 was a 28. That is by far the best run defense rating of any ILB the past 4 seasons.

 

Sorry not sure I get your point?

Ireland never "discovered" Wake , he was playing professionally in a well established league where he more than doubled the sack total of the next closest player. He wasn't an unknown and over half the NFL made overtures to sign him. Kudos to actually signing him ( as opposed to Hunt ) but he wasn't a surprise at all.

 

1) Ireland and Sparano were on board with the Pat White pick. they all thought he would take the wildcat to another level.

2) neither Henning nor Lee were fired, Henning's contract was up and he retired, and David Lee reunited with Houston Nutt by taking the OC job at Ole Miss. Sparano was fired but that was clearly the call of Stephen Ross, i guess everyone knew that but you?

3) cant believe i have to break this down for you but here goes...pay attention. you are over here speculating that Ireland WOULD HAVE taken different players based on reported interest if Parcells wasn't there to overrule him, conveniently choosing a pretty good OLB as your example. that's conjecture, you're basically guessing. I on the other hand am saying we SHOULD HAVE taken different players because the ones we did take suck. big difference.

4) im not blaming Ireland for Parcells decisions im just saying i think he was on board with them.

 

He was a surprise to the league in a sense b/c he was a CFL player and was only signed to a $5 million contract IIRC.
How many of those CFL guys have gone on to become great NFL players? Very few.
So it's not like Cam represented the unanimous top player in college and Ireland had the draft's first pick. Ireland recognized his ability and fought for him. Other teams could've fought harder, but most didn't.

 

I know. He was a great run defender last season according to PFF, as well. But I don't think that justifies placing Scott ahead of him. He's completely one dimensional compared to Dansby.

 

I don't care what Sparano thought. Once again it's very convenient of you to blame Ireland for every bad pick, but when it comes to Parcells making a bad pick you assume that it was one that Ireland would've made absent Parcells. Right, you don't make "inclusions".

Do you understand what forcefully retired means?
A. Henning was politely allowed to retire and end his career in peace to save face.
B. David Lee left for college b/c he stunk here and we wouldn't have renewed his contract. He's lucky his contract was up or else he would've been fired along with Sparano after not seeing a single QB develop here.

You, you're funny.
Yeah there IS a big difference. You're using hindsight to postulate an already flawed argument while I'm using known facts, past foresight, and knowledge of how the 2010 draft played out to formulate a very plausible scenario, one that plausibly results in us drafting Connor Barwin had Parcells not had a crush on White.

Look, you're the one who un-provoking threw harsh blame at Ireland for passing on either Dez, JPP, or Thomas for Misi & Odrick, all the while knowing of a tweet by Armando stating Parcells took control of the 2010 draft. Honestly, how do you expect me to trust or believe anything you say?

TBH, Parcells might as well be the closest thing to a dictator when he's running the show. Just b/c Ireland either went along with Parcells' decisions or didn't vehemently veto them it doesn't mean he was on board with them all.


Yes, Ireland was likely accepting of his boss's decisions (that's nothing new to the business world), but you have to remember that most of those decisions were based on the blueprint Parcells established for the team, based on the coaching staff Parcells brought in, and based on the schemes those coaches ran.

IMO, before you can lay any solid evidential blame on Ireland for the '08-'10 draft, you first have to be able to determine whether or not the drafting criteria we used was actually one that Ireland wholeheartedly agreed with. Ireland could've very well agreed that option A represented the best of the options based on the criteria set for him, but that doesn't mean it's what he would've chosen for himself.
Analogously speaking, let's say you're buying a TV and you want me to help. Your criteria happens to be a plasma TV that's no bigger than 50 inches. Now, that might not be the same criteria I'm looking for in my own TV, but that doesn't mean I can't go along with your selection based on how I feel it meets your own criteria.

We know that Sparano wasn't Ireland's choice and that he wanted a different HC, IIRC, so it's possible the players we drafted under Parcells might not have fit Ireland's own criteria had his personal choice of coaches been hired instead.

 

Link?

 

Actually a fair number have including the legendary first #13 Jake Scott , Wake has probably exceeded expectations but he was no surprise. He was not discovered , period. Again kudos for signing him , but Ireland never discovered him which was my point.

 

This. A franchise QB can make a bad GM look good and a lack thereof can make a serviceable GM look terrible. My biggest beef with Ireland over the years has been his insistence on ignoring or failing to adequately address the QB position. At least this season he tried and it's time to see how he did. If he's failed on Tannehill then he's failed as Dolphins GM and it will be time to wipe away the last remnants of the Parcells regime. If Tannehill is a superstar QB Jeff Ireland will be vindicated.

 

Ireland should certainly get some credit for Cam Wake. But a $4+ million dollar 4 year contract for a CFL player is usually unheard of. It tells you that there was much interest from other teams. But as others have said, kudos to Ireland for making that happen and dishing out that money.

But I'd venture to guess that he was on almost every GMs radar to some degree.

 

i dont know what specific link you're looking for, but i believe Armando when he says Bill told him Ireland ran the 09 draft...he was the GM, it makes sense that Bill would give him the call for at least one of the drafts to get him prepared to run his own drafts when Bill eventually left...and then of course there are quotes like this:

“I don’t have too many regrets, to be honest with you. Pat White would certainly be one of them as a second-round pick that you’ve taken and didn’t pan out. So that’s probably the highest draft choice that we’ve taken that didn’t work out. So I would say that’s probably one of them, but certainly not a regret — wish he had it over again, but you learn and you move on. And at the time we were running the Wildcat and we thought we would continue with that on that path, and obviously that didn’t work out.” - Ireland.

 

Dansby at the time claimed one of the main reasons he signed with Miami was due to his admiration for Parcells.

I'm not confused. If you have worked your way down the list to questioning whether Dansby was a good signing, (he was), then IMO you are trying too hard to find something to ***** about.

 

LOL I never assumed who Ireland would or might take if Parcells wasn't there, and i never will, that's what YOU'RE DOING. you're living in this fantasy land where Parcells is removed from the equation prior to 2011. I dont care about who Ireland might or might not have taken if The Tuna wasn't the VP because, once again, I DON'T ARGUE HYPOTHETICALS. he could have taken a good player like barwin, he also could have taken some other bust, guess what we'll never know, which is why discussing it is a waste of time.

I'm simply saying I believe him and Parcells shared the same philosophies from day 1 as it pertains to scouting and evaluating prospects, which is probably why Parcells chose him as GM.

Ireland didn't fire anyone. not lee, henning, or sparano. matter of fact David Lee's job as QB coach was safe. he left because he wanted to call plays again, as per Mortenson. and Henning was 68 freaking years old, obviously retirement was an option.

and Ireland had absolutely nothing to do with Sparano being fired.

well im sold! if only Parcells had retired after 08, we'd have connor barwin! damn that Tuna!

actually i never saw that tweet prior to yesterday, my friend's the one who saw it on his timeline months ago and told me he read that parcells handed the reigns over to Ireland in 09. i then searched for it and posted it here.

when did Ireland want a different coach? you saying he never wanted to hire Sparano to begin with?