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Flores Didn't Know How to Play the Game

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by KeyFin, Jan 10, 2022.

  1. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    "On Sundays, NFL teams play the game, and they play to win the game—the Raiders and Chargers proved that to us Sunday night. But on every other day of the week, NFL teams—and coaches especially—don’t play the game; they play the Game. The Game is one of politics, of connections and networks, of knowing the right guy, and of knowing the guy who knows the right guy, and wondering how his son’s college baseball career is going—he’s at Brown, right? To play the Game, you don’t scheme and scout and coach; you glad-hand and schmooze. You scramble for job security, for upward mobility, for increased power..."

    https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2022/1/10/22876955/brian-flores-fired-miami-dolphins-stephen-ross

    Very good read from start to finish, and I completely agree with the author. Flores didn't play the game within the game.
     
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  2. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I disagree from the immediate, this firing is not and should not have been "stunning." Retaining him was certainly defensible, but I'm certainly not stunned we are moving on from a guy who hasn't even made the playoffs and has - twice in a row - gotten his *** beat like a drum in the most important game of the late season to actual high caliber teams while looking woefully unprepared and uncompetitive. I'm not stunned that a guy who had a garbage relationship with his #5 overall pick young QB was fired.

    Maybe, like most Patriots, the problems he has maintaining relationships is a him problem and not an everybody else problem.
     
  3. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Ultimately it comes down to winning. If we make the playoffs this year guaranteed Flores stays despite not playing the schmoozing game. And you can play politics all you want, in the end if you don't win you get canned in the NFL.

    I think Flores is a good HC, but not great. And I also disagree with the author that he overachieved (agree with texanphinatic here). You should expect a franchise HC to make the playoffs by year 3. With the new playoff format that means being 57th percentile (43.75% of teams make the playoffs). Making the playoffs is not a huge accomplishment in a 3-year period, and Flores failed at that.

    Anyway it is what it is. I wanted Flores for one more year, but he didn't overachieve by any means.
     
  4. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    When you play the Game of Thrones you win, or you die.
     
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  5. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    And this is why Miami is a bottom dweller . Instead of listening to the Hc who preferred Herbert over Tua, we listen to the owner who had interest in Herbert. If that doesn’t prove that Ross is a complete moron, I don’t know what does.
     
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  6. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I've seen this before, even posted it myself, but upon reflection it seems more spin/speculation oriented. Apparently, all 3 wanted Burrow badly, but Cinci didn't even bother to pick up the phone. They all agreed on Tua as #2, but Flores later soured. Tua wasn't forced on him.
     
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  7. Pennington's Limp Arm

    Pennington's Limp Arm Well-Known Member

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    Channel the energy you had following the Buffalo beat down of 2020.

    Now throw on the flaming mess of the music city meltdown in 2021.

    Pour on 3 straight years of the team being completely unprepared out of camp and falling flat on their face to start the season.

    Then ignite it all with the offense being a hopeless, rudderless, disaster during his entire tenure.

    Add it up and Flores went down in Flames!!
    Firing is justified and not surprising.

    And that doesn’t even factor in the subjective art of ‘playing the game’. (i.e. being a nice and pleasurable person to work with)

    Were people really fooled by a 7 game stretch against opponents who were mostly laughable.
     
  8. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Reports I’ve seen say Flores preferred Herbert over Tua. I don’t know when we’re going to learn. This was the same issue with Saban.
     
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  9. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I do suspect that a large part of the issue people (especially fans) are taking is with Grier surviving, they are linking the two and coming to the conclusion that keeping Grier makes firing Flores bad or shocking.

    I think you need to view it both in a vacuum and then part of the whole. Did firing Flores make sense? Is it defensible? Yes.
    Why? In large part because, while players didn't necessarily give up, there was significant strife on the team between the HC and the FO, players and especially his own staff. Add in what you mention as the specific triggers and it's easy to see why we are moving on.

    Why are we keeping Grier? That's a tougher question, especially if reports that Ross didn't "choose" between them are true. He seems to trust and like Grier, which could be good or bad. Certainly the knee jerk reaction is that it's all bad. I tend to agree at this point, I wanted him gone ... but if we hire a good coach (calling Doug Pederson!) and revamp some of the FO (like whoever the eff does OL scouting/eval) then I'll be somewhat placated.
     
  10. Pennington's Limp Arm

    Pennington's Limp Arm Well-Known Member

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    Not sure why Grier survived. His firing would have been justified too.

    I guess he can say he knocked it out of the park with Waddle, Phillips and Holland in the draft last year.

    But ultimately I take them at their word.
    I think it came down to Grier is likely a great person to work with. Has good relationships with everyone. Because he has probably shown a willingness to compromise with others opinions. Learn from his mistakes.
    Things Flores probably didn’t seem capable of in the eyes of the front office.

    You can call it playing the games I guess. Or you call it standard traits employers look for and a good basis of being a team player.
     
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  11. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    At this point, I am pretty sure Ross and Grier have an intimate manlove type relationship. There is no other explanation.
     
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  12. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Seems pretty simple. You can be an a hole if your team wins. If they miss the playoffs, you’re just an a hole.
     
  13. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division Club Member

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    It's like we're of the same mind hitman. I don't know if you're joking, but i'm dead serious. Whatever they got going on may be weirder than 100 Deshaun Watson's sexual proclivities.

    This dude literally just blew (no pun intended) the two highest draft capitals in Dolphins history, in a row, and retains a job. The guy that goes 9-8 and 10-6 gets canned, with, according to other posters on here (i'll take their word for it) a QB he didn't even want to work with.

    So Flores had the right QB in mind, Flores has back to back winning seasons for Miami (unheard of in its own right these days) and we 'can his ***?' Yep, if the Jets hire this guy he is destined to put Miami back in the basement, likely where they belong.

    I sure hope Ross/Grier don't leak any x-rated videos.
     
  14. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division Club Member

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    Bro, are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

    https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article256840502.html

    The players liked FLO. So, if these reports are true, that makes the sum of this mess easy to ascertain. Management is trash. And like the OP says, it's politics. It's Grier licking balls and a billionaire liking it (or vice versa on that, I'm not into that sort of stuff, won't even pretend to be an expert)
     
  15. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    It’s called being a good communicator. Establishing rapport, building networks , persuading others to see what you see. It is a prime requisite of a HC, because it doesn’t matter how wonderful your plan for the future us if you can’t get the people who matter to join in.

    A failure to be able to relate other human beings in a non-disagreeable way is failure of leadership. I’m not saying you have to be all Mr Rogers all the time. Look at Gordon Ramsey, he spends far more time in each show encouraging and setting expectations than he does blowing his top.
     
  16. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Smooching and kissing *** should not be a pre-requisite of being a good coach. All the great coaches have been no fuss, tough coaches with abrasive personalities. Flo said in an interview that one of the things he learned from Shula is that you have to be demanding of your players. Bellichik is the same. If the FO can't handle his personality and style it's on them. Flo should not be kissing up or making excuses for wanting to do things his way. Grier's job should be providing good players, negotiating contracts, and then getting out of the way. He should not be meddling in how the football team and players are run.

    The problem with this organization is there are too many politics and not enough football guys at the top of the organization. Grier is not a football guy, he is a mediocre scout who is great at smooching and playing internal politics to climb the corporate ladder, but in terms of football knowledge he has little of it and Ross is none the wiser.
     
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  17. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    If the guy is a flat out jerk to everyone around him and carrying himself with a holier than thou attitude and on top of it cant get half of his job right, you aren't going to last long. Ross's statement is pretty clear on this - it wasn't a performance issue it was pretty much he couldn't get along with anyone. It seems he and Grier having a falling out was the last domino to fall. I was disappointed yesterday when they let him go but I've been hearing for weeks that there were problems in regards to how Flores was working with people. The team was flat every year out of camp and looked woefully unprepared, He couldn't win a big game and usually got blasted in them, his inability to hire a competent offensive staff - well you throw that on top of everything else and you are writing your own ticket out the door.
     
  18. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Your take is pure BS. The team was behind him. He only had problems with a few players who were underperforming or not putting in the work. He put together the first back to back winning seasons we've had in over 15 years. The slow starts are mostly on Grier for gutting veterans in the off-season and signing/drafting injury prone or bad players.

    The lack of offensive coaches is also on Grier for undermining Gailey last year to force in Tua. After that not many coaches wanted to come here. Grier also did not want to pay big money for a good oline coach, so we got stuck with a noob oline coach and co off. Coordinators. Flores was just trying to make the best of the **** sandwich Grier gave him to work with, and he did a damn pretty good job of that by ending up with back to back winning seasons.

    The problem with this team was not Flores, the problem with this team is the incompetence and internal politics at the top of the organization, mainly Grier and Ross.
     
  19. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    that sounds great but Flores in his contract had control over the 53. So pretty much Your take is pure BS.
     
  20. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    So you’re saying Grier was/is a puppet GM and wasn’t in control of the decisions he made on our roster? If so, why was Ross praising him for the “nice” young roster he’s put together?
     
  21. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Why don't you look up Barry Jacksons article that came out today. That backs up my take. What backs up what you think?
     
  22. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    This is what I don't get. You hire a coach to coach the team, but then expect him to coach with the players that you want him to coach and not the players he wants? Who would ever want to coach that way? I could see maybe that at backup LB, but certainly not at the QB position.
     
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  23. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    This happens a lot to head coaches. It is hard to delegate and trust people to do their job when it is your butt on the line.

    He made a lot of mistakes and didn't seem willing to work on his mistakes or he believed it wasn't him.

    I remember when Holmgren was hired by Seattle. He had over 40 titles and wanted to control everything. He started to have more and more success in Seattle as he reliquished more and more control. The owner had a similar meeting and he was willing to give up more control rather than get fired.

    Flores is a good coach. He let his ego get away. Hopefully he learns from this. And when he does I hope it is in the NFC.
     
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  24. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I have seen many more reports that say that is BS.
     
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  25. sandcastle

    sandcastle Active Member

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    Is it possible that Flores orchestrate his firing? This season started with Deshaun Watson making unprecedented demand for how a team hired a GM and coach. After the Ravens game, I felt the Flo achieve his goal for the defense (with the help of 2 rookies) and blamed him for the first time for how poorly the offense has developed. Perhaps, he came to a similar conclusion during this season and force his way off the team. Multiple defensive coaches have found success by becoming the coach of a team with a franchise QB, including his mentor, Belichick. When BB quit the Jets, they thought they had Super Bowl caliber team until Vinny was injured. By switching Patriots, Belichick had his franchise QB, Bledsoe, until Mo Lewis changed history.

    Perhaps fortunately for the Dolphins, they were able to move immediately as the lateness of Belichick's move hampered the Jets for years. It's a bit ironic that Ross and Grier come off as a bit ruthless at this time, but isn't that a quality that we credited Flores when we made early staff and personnel changes.
     
  26. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    So a lot of speculation and not a lot of facts. All we really know is he was 24-25 as a Hc and put together our first back to back winning seasons since 2002-2003.

    Sorry but Grier and Ross have given me 0 reason to trust either of them so just going to have to stick with what is known/certain.
     
  27. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think a lot of this is getting overblown into something it's not. I have no doubt that Flores had plenty of say in the final roster positions. But at the end of the day, we started 1-7 because of the offensive line...again. Someone was going to own that this offseason and it wasn't going to be Grier.

    He's outlasted 4 or 5 GM's by knowing how to stay just below the radar on stuff like that. Flores has no experience there since he's not playing politics...he's just coaching.
     
  28. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    And the defense. It was one of the worst in the league at that time in both yardage and points.
     
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  29. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    So you’re going to answer my questions with questions? I was more curious but maybe there’s no need to continue the dialogue.

    I don’t trust anything coming out of our FO. They just fired our most successful coach in decades(albeit the bar is really low). Are they stirring up s***, is all of it true, some of it? Very hard to say. In 21+ of business one thing is for certain, whenever there’s a high profile firing/letting go, there’s a lot of spin/propaganda to follow it.
     
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  30. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    True, but we gutted the defense and it wasn't expected to be at today's levels. The line was expected to be a major upgrade with all those draft picks. So you have one big positive and one big negative...looks like Flores is only getting credit for one of those.
     
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  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Gutted the defense? By getting rid of McCain and VanNoy? I wouldn't call that gutting.
     
  32. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I just cannot get behind this. He comes from New England which is Machiavellian to the extreme. And there is a definite pattern of New England guys going out elsewhere and quickly wearing out welcomes.

    It's not that he's just too busy focused on being a coach, or that he's not playing politics, it's that they (the NE guys) are playing a different brand of politics that doesn't fly outside of New England where BB rules with an iron fist. They all want to be him but they don't have the cache for it and it bites them in the butt every time. It bites them with fans and media, players, staff, front offices and eventually ownership.
     
  33. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The season before...got rid of everyone but X, Baker and a few others.
     
  34. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Apologies for taking your comment the wrong way.

    I agree that all sorts of propaganda comes out after the fact and it is best to keep a filter on to sort it out. That said over the last 2 months of the season there was a lot of talk about things were not as rosey as it seemed so when I hear this stuff it matches up to that pretty closely. I do suggest Barry's article it brings up a lot of different things and at the end of it he still feels it was a mistake to let him go, so that is not your typical hit piece.
     
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  35. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So what we're really saying here is that your first time head coach was inexperienced at everything involved in the role? Well; I'm just shocked by this new. :rolleyes:

    Here's the only game I care about and the only game winning coaches need to care about; the game on Sundays. **** the game within the game of playing the politics of the organization; the coaching network of his peers is important no doubt about that and he's obviously failed there. However if the root cause of this firing is due to his failing to play the game properly within the building then guess what; we've got far bigger problems than a head coach. We've all already known that though.

    Stephen Ross shouldn't own a football team and shouldn't be putting his everlasting faith and trust into a GM; an employee of the team throughout it's last 20 years of mediocrity. I'm curious what the other "advisors" think here; mainly Dan Marino.

    Fire a coach because he rubs some people the wrong way; we're all so damn soft now it's sad. If I got fired everytime I disagreed with a co-worker or rubbed someone the wrong way I'd have nowhere to work. Fact of the matter is if he's just that way as a human; then yeah he's not going to fit in a productive environment. If he's hard on people and demanding and rubbing people the wrong way based around building success and a winning culture and wiping out the loser mentality that exists in this organization then guess what... that's EXACTLY why you hired him away from New England; to build the winning culture here. But Chris the snake Grier goes crying over his precious QB pick knowing his employment likely is tied to him and all of the sudden all of that goes out the window again for the loser mentality we've known for years. Awesome...
     
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