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Formula One Appreciation Thread

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Paul 13, Sep 10, 2021.

  1. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Mind you, this thread is being created when we have one of the closest competitions in the last several years (since Hamilton v Rosberg). To get us all in the spirit...





    now then, do we all have a pick for this year? will it be Hamilton? Will it be Max? Are you impartial and just want to see good racing? (like me).

    The Dutch GP was not so fun to watch as the passing was limited (really interesting looking track though). Of course the fans went nuts for Max, which was great to see.

    I'm looking forward to next year when we have Russell apparently taking over for Bottas in the 2nd Mercedes seat next to Lewis. He won't be a "nice" as Valtteri. And the new car designs should make things even more intriguing. Until then, we'll have an epic race chase on our hands.
     
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  2. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Dutch GP looks like a fun circuit to drive but the race itself wasn't too exciting with the limited passing opportunities.

    I want Max to win this year so that it can be said a team beat the Merc and Hamilton dominance during the turbo hybrid era before 2022 rule changes.

    Speaking of, next year should be incredibly fun with so many unique designs and interpretations of the rules. I anticipate many different design philosophies that will eventually all merge into one generally accepted chassis and aero design over following few years. Even then teams will discover new designs and technologies to give them the edge. That is what I love most about the sport. It isn't a spec series and there's continuous development to improve the car. The evolution of the cars are never complete, be it minor track to track aero changes or fundamental changes.

    Good to see Russell finally sign with Merc - it was inevitable. He has championship calibre skills and Bottas was never a threat to Lewis. Bottas can qualify with the best of them but his racecraft is nowhere near Hamilton's. Not many people are and he's the best for a reason but if you had Leclerc or Verstappen in Bottas' seat the last two years I am sure the championship would've been much closer, or even someone else's. Even Norris who is having an incredible year would challenge Hamilton I feel.

    As a Ferrari fan I am not looking forward to Monza or any other power tracks as it is not suited for this year's car.

    Ferrari: "OK, we are checking" "Slow button on"
    Merc: "Get in there Lewis"...
     
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  3. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Engine swaps may cost RB the championship I feel. Due to their crashes they may have to take grid penalties. I believe Checo took one last week after getting knocked out of Q1 did he not?
     
  4. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not sure Max deserves a 3 grid penalty for incident with Hamilton.

    Nice to see Danny Ric win one after his up and down season.

    McLaren 1-2. What year is this?
     
  5. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    That was a wild one. I really don't think the penalty is that harsh. I expect him to make it up in the next race there in Sochi. He'll likely be behind Hamilton in the race once it's made up. With the Championship being that close, it's almost like they are assuring Hamilton of being ahead of Verstappen by the middle of the race. And then from there it's back to square one. We'll see I suppose. Both cars didn't finish and scored zero points last weekend. Had Verstappen say ruined Lewis' car to the point where Max scores points and Lewis doesn't, then it would be a real talking point as far as a penalty.
     
  6. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The grid places only matter when comparing Max and Lewis in a bubble. Yeah he'll make the places up but he likely won't be able to challenge Lewis for the win. Sochi is a strong Merc track generally so Max may have an even more difficult time catching him barring an incident.

    "Had Verstappen say ruined Lewis' car to the point where Max scores points and Lewis doesn't, then it would be a real talking point as far as a penalty."

    Like the incident at Silverstone? It didn't affect the decision on Lewis even though the contact took Max out and Lewis gained 25 points on him. It was a racing incident then, and the severity of the outcome had no impact on the decision not to give Lewis a penalty. Not sure why the outcome would all of a sudden matter when reviewing the Monza incident.
     
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  7. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    The Russian GP was.... I can't find the correct adjective. indescribable. I feel for Lando Norris. It's like God said let it rain to correct the Verstappen thing at the end didn't he? And the TV coverage was not so great in not capturing his leap up the top 10 in the closing moments of the race. I suppose it was a bit understandable considering the circumstances. Crofty mentioned it, but they barely showed it.
     
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  8. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Crazy ending. Feel for Lando but he disobeyed team orders to box and was kind of a jerk to his engineer. He and his team thought rain wasn't going to get worse which was their undoing. Great result for Max after taking the grid penalty. I believe HAM will have to take one soon as well. They said they're running their engines to the max during this title fight and will likely need more than the allotted 4 per year.

    The TV coverage was worst I've seen in a long time, and that's saying something. They didn't even show Lando passing Sainz for the lead, among so many other overtakes. Terrible.
     
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  9. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Yeah for Hamilton it was the joys of being 2nd when the rain came... and also having a nice cushion behind him to 3rd to where he could pit and come back out still in 2nd. The F1 TV feed is just that, it's F1's own feed is that right? So we watch it on ESPN here in the US, which is leased coverage from Sky Sports (Crofty is the best, really glad we don't have to listen to the NBC guys anymore). But during the race, it's F1's production.
     
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  10. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I watch on an IPTV box and have to watch Sky. Best commentary and analysis. I love all the personalities, even through their biases. :wink2:
     
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  11. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Speaking of Sky, where was Martin Brundle this last race? I'm 50/50 on Paul di Resta.
     
  12. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not sure where Brundle was, and I don't like Di Resta at all. Karun and Davidson are amazing. So is Rosberg as a guest commentator when he fills in.
     
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  13. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Huge F1 fan since even before Schumacher. Back to Andretti.

    Big Hamilton fan for several reasons. But really love Lando and George - and Ricciardo. And appreciate Verstappen as an amazing driver. I think he is going to be tough to beat. Not as big a fan of his personally. Hoping Lando and George can become major championship contenders the next 10 years.

    Also hope that McLaren can enter the fray at the top next year. How amazing would it be to have 3-4 manufacturers competing?

    While the passing issue is a problem that I hope can be somewhat solved or improved next year, there just aren’t any better racers or cars in the world, imo.
     
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  15. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Gotta love George and Albon representing!! Which they’d have brought us more luck!
     
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  16. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No coincidence that Miami gets a GP, Ross in the stands, Miami plays in London seemingly annually, and Albon (welcome back to the F1 kid!) and Russell wearing Miami Dolphin gear. Definitely a promotion event but I love the crossover.
     
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  17. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Verstappen is growing on me. I love his directness and honesty, and his race craft is much more refined and less reckless overall. Lando and George are proving to be stars in the making, if Lando isn't already. Russell will prove it once he gets his butt in the Merc as evidenced last year.

    I agree that it would be great for McLaren and Ferrari to challenge RB and Merc next year. Imagine a legit title fight with Verstappen, Hamilton, Leclerc, Norris, Russell, and Sainz? Damn, every week would be incredible. But who knows who will be strong with the new regulations coming in 2022. The entire field is going to be shuffled.
     
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  18. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Great race yesterday. I think Mercedes should have had Hamilton come in earlier on the second pit. Probably three laps sooner to give him a shot against Verstappen at the end. That said, I don’t think he could’ve gotten close enough to actually pass because of the dirty air situation. Bottas had all sorts of trouble getting by Sainz.

    Really, the race was one and lost, imo, when Verstappen boxed the second time ahead of Hamilton and got the undercut (though he was in the lead). Hamilton probably needed to box that lap but it was early still.
     
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  19. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Hamilton should have covered Verstappen from the start with the timing of those pits, IMO.
     
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  20. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah, great race. Too many times Hamilton made late charges for the win on fresher tires. I thought he was going to get VER to be honest, but it came down to the tightest of margins. Props to Red Bull strategists though, they made a bold call and it ended up working for them.

    EDIT: I love two stop races so much more than one stoppers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  21. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    just remembered no race in Canada again this year. That's one of my favorite tracks, certainly to race on the F1 game :lol:
     
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  22. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm an idiot man. I live in Toronto and have never gone to Montreal for a GP, and only been to Quebec City once (another city in Quebec that is not Montreal). If you guys don't know, Montreal is known for some of the hottest women and best night life. Real party town. See my first sentence.
     
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  23. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Interesting to read about Hamilton‘s comments that Bottas left the door open for Verstappen. That is the first thing I thought as they turned the corner at the end of the first stretch. It felt like Bottas was just not a good teammate imo and could easily have stayed to the left and prevent Verstappen from passing but he moved to the center as if he were letting him pass. Honestly, I think Bottas is not all in with Mercedes now that he’s moving to another team. It’s too bad they can’t just shift George there now. Or another driver in the wings. They need someone who is going to be all in as a good teammate with Lewis the rest of the year.

    Verstappen may have gotten the win still with his race pace but it also would have been a different race and different strategy.
     
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  24. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    That was a pretty amazing weekend. Tons of drama. The rivalry with Marc and RB is intense. And Hamilton was just amazing.

    I think Hamilton has to win the last 3 races to win the whole thing. Simply because I don’t think anyone else can finish ahead of Verstappen.

    Ideally they would go 1-2 (Hamilton/Ver) the next two races, then they would be virtually tied (depending on fastest lap) and it would come down to the final race.
     
  25. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Mercedes "win as a team and lose as a team" except when something goes wrong, then Toto blames Bottas (stopping several inches away from marking on that pit stop with the jammed gun), Hamilton blames strategist, etc. etc. #TrulyBlessed. They're easy to dislike to be honest.

    Hamilton had a super weekend but I think it highlights the drastic pace advantage the Merc had this week on this track. Last race Hamilton said repeatedly that the RB CAR was too fast, nothing he can do. Why is it a Hamilton master class when he has the absolute quickest car by a fair margin? He is also lucky it was a sprint weekend after the unfortunate wing fiasco. There is no way he starts from the back and takes the win in a normal GP, even with the car he had.
     
  26. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Well, on Bottas, he should be blamed. To say otherwise is to ignore that, one, he moved over to allow Verstappen to pass two races ago. Multiple observers noted that mistake; and two, it ignores that, as decent as he is, he is the inferior driver and does make mistakes. He is a middle of the pack driver in F1. To be sure he plays second fiddle to Hamilton in the team but his race pace is almost always slower than Hamilton’s and his struggles to pass cars or defend are notorious. And he doesn’t protect tires near as well as Hamilton does. Defending Bottas is simply ungrounded. There’s a reason he is going to Alpha Romeo. And, arguably, the reason he is in that slot is bec of Woolf.

    When you say Hamilton blames strategist, most of those are in race situation, if you weren’t biased against him you’d also notice that Verstappen does the exact same thing even more so during races - He is constantly blaming the car set up for the strategy.. It’s simply the heat of the moment radio calls. All drivers do that.

    Few people support the team off the track more than Hamilton does. He is very positive post race with Mercedes giving them credit. And often this year Mercedes has made strategy mistakes that they’ve admitted after the fact.

    Hamilton did have the more powerful car but to argue it was not a great drive is just negative bias against him. To go from 20th to 5th and 10th to first was extremely impressive. And his tactics were exceptional as he figured out where to be relative to other cars going into drs zone 1 on Saturday.

    Verstappen, on the OTH, reverted to his borderline over the line tactics he has been notorious for going back to his first three seasons when he often wrecked other cars. Had Hamilton stayed on the track on the first pass attempt - which he was capable of doing as he demonstrated all weekend including the final pass - Verstappen would have wrecked him.

    Verstappen is a great driver. At this stage arguably the best given his prime age and Hamilton is past peak. But Max never takes the blame when he gets in wrecks others or goes over the line. He has caused more wrecks in the last five years than any F1 driver. When you compare that to drivers like Norris, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Sainz, LeClerc, those guys generally pass or defend much more fairly than Verstappen does. Just look at Hamilton and Norris when they have raced against each other. And though Leclerc makes a number of mistakes he has the humility to admit such.
     
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  27. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Where do I demonstrate bias against Hamilton? Seems I may have struck a nerve on this one.
     
  28. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Shaping up to be an all time great title fight. Merc seems to have the momentum at the moment. Hamilton wasn't even using his new engine from Brazil, which will be re-installed for the next race.

    Great to see Alonso back on the podium too. Gasly got screwed by his own team's strategy. Kind of a boring race though.
     
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  29. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is interesting.

     
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  30. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    It's definitely shaping up to be an amazing finish to an amazing season. if Hamilton wins (Ver 2nd) this next race, it'll come down to the last race for sure, and anything can happen. I certainly want each driver to settle it on the track and not have a mechanical/pit issue ruin it.

    As for Bottas, it's odd, I mean he started out at Mercedes really well to the point where he could be a challenger to Hamilton perhaps. And then it just all fell apart. Once Russell had that great race as Hamilton's replacement the writing was on the wall though. And it's really going to be interesting next season once George gets installed into the team. He doesn't seem like someone that would like to play 2nd fiddle. Could be shaping up for another Hamilton/Rosberg clash, which if Russell wins it, you could see Hamilton move on. I don't know.

    These drivers have to be a little off though don't they? I mean to do what they do? Fearless... to win. Fearful to lose though (I think that was Bottas, perhaps Perez?). There's some good very humble drivers though, Ricciardo, Norris, Leclerc... all seem like good guys. hard not to root for them.
     
  31. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Wow. That last lap during qually for Verstappen. Going to be epic race tomorrow. But that lap and his struggle at the end could be the deciding moment of the season.
     
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  32. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Watching the race on replay. Lap 11 pit by Hamilton is a big ? mark For me. I have not been keen on strategy by Mercedes really over the course of four or five years. Will be interesting to see. But I would’ve kept Hamilton out. He was running in clean air and just fine. Too early. This will be interesting.
     
  33. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What a race. That track is always going to create drama. Looks like Max is reverting back to his old self again (or his true self) of being a dirty driver. Over the last two races he's proven that he won't let Lewis pass him cleanly. LOL at that brake check - only Max. The last race deciding it all is amazing, and frightening. I just hope neither car gets tangled up and the championship is won on merit. Crazy season.
     
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  34. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Found on Formula 1 reddit, but Palmer pretty much gets this spot on - see quote below.

    I remember Max running Leclerc off the circuit two years ago (forgot the race) and it was celebrated as a great defense and within the rules, and it is just Max being Max. EDIT, found the video. Max was actually passing, not defending.

    Quote taken from podcast in link.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0b8b4m3

     
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  35. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I think Max is going to win. He has the faster car on the straights since they went to that lower downforce on the team wing.

    Max will get the lead at the start with the red tires and Lewis is surrounded by cars with red tires, so that could be dangerous for his falling to 3rd or 4th.

    Red Bull also showed - albeit briefly - they have better long speed.

    If Lewis can stay in 2nd and keep within range, then the tire strategy comes into play. I don’t think Lewis can stay too close or he will wear his tires down. But Max could get out to a 6-7 second lead or more by lap 15 or so and then he could pit and go long.

    I think Mercedes are going to have to go long on the yellow and hope they have significantly more wear.

    The question is, can Red Bull go one stop? And can they do it with a Red / Yellow tire? Or do they go red / yellow / yellow; or red / yellow / red two stop?

    I def give Max the advantage in all that.

    Max keeps saying people don’t want him to win but every week he gets driver of the day even if he’s not close to that. He has a massive fan base.

    His problem is he is a dirty driver who takes it over the edge just too much. He is Uber talented. Perhaps the best going right now as Lewis is just a bit past his prime.

    I just hope it is an exciting race down to the wire and no major controversy.

    But Verstappen should win this one.
     
  36. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    That’s pretty accurate, imo.

    This video is a good breakdown.

     
  37. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wow. What happened?

    Congrats to Max and Red Bull, I think they deserved it overall but it came to a controversial final lap of the season showdown. Epic season for the ages.
     
  38. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    Whoever finished second was going to feel like they got robbed, especially after last week. It’s unfortunate but really a result of how close the season was as well. I think had Hamilton won, more people would have been upset. Considering he was allowed to keep the lead after going wide to maintain his position. I do think that wasnt right, Verstappen was the agressor and deserved the lead. But hey its great for the sport and next year will be interesting. Im going to root for Russell in the Merc. I suspect Lewis will stand in his way until he leaves the team.
     
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  39. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm happy with the finish today and not because I'm a fan of either driver. I'm a fan of racing and what we got to see all season long and today was good racing. I don't understand how anyone can want to see a race, and championship decided under a yellow flag parade for an incident that was several laps ago. The only issue here IMO is because of the fans of either driver being upset.

    The only real change to the "rule" today was simply allowing only part of the lapped cars to proceed through. Under normal circumstances they would ALL get to pass the leader; however that kind of time wasn't available due to it being lap 57 of 58. The only two cars that mattered on the track at that point were the 44 in first, and the 33 in second. The rest of the field was irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. What does it matter if the last handful of drivers a lap down or more get through? Their race is technically already over it makes sense to get them out of the way so you can have your final race, and championship and an otherwise epic season decided under racing conditions.

    The fact of the matter is Mercedes made a strategy decision not to pit under the SC, banking on the race not going back to green. They knew if they pitted, Max wouldn't so he would take the lead. Everyone knew RedBull would do the opposite of Merc in that situation; they had to! It was their only shot. They got the track cleaned up in time, and had the opportunity to finish a race under racing conditions. That should always be the FIA's goal IMO. Like Masi told Toto; this is motor racing and IMO they did what they could do to get a race to finish as an actual race. I can't fault that as a fan of racing in general. If Merc pits Lewis and Max stays out; then what? We either finish the race under the SC and Max wins it all, or we restart allowing the lapped cars through and Lewis wins on fresh tires over Max. The problem here is their decision didn't go their way and now in typical F1 fashion the team on the short end will cry constantly to the FIA after the race. Honestly all the BS like this in F1 is wearing on my fandom.

    F1 needs to do 4 things during this break:
    1. Eliminate the ability to change tyres & repair cars under red flags.
    2. Eliminate the ability for teams to directly lobby to the race stewards and race direction. Let them be the impartial referee's they're supposed to be.
    3. Create a rule to allow for finishes under Green racing conditions.
    4. Clarify rules around overtaking penalties and their associated penalties. Far too unclear and inconsistent this year.
     
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  40. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I don’t think those rule changes solve the issue. Although I agree with partially with one and agree with four.

    The deeper issue with number two is that F1 is so expensive that they struggle to get manufacturers to participate. They are constantly scrambling to get 10 teams in place. If Mercedes decided they were out, F1 might simply collapse. And once they allow a race Director like Masi to make arbitrary decisions that favor one driver - as he did in this race - then you have to allow teams to talk to him about that. Imagine an official changing the rules in the middle of a dolphins game. And it goes against them. I guarantee you would be feel robbed.

    And your take is also arguing that football/basketball coaches, etc. should never be allowed to talk to officials? There’s no sport where a competitor can’t talk to an official.

    Allowing tire changes under red flags is really not much different than allowing tire changes on the first lap of a yellow, imo. In fact, I think that’s what they should’ve done to allow fair racing at the end it’s just red flag the race with the lab to go then let the racing start over. With fresh tires for all.

    And allowing the race Director to make arbitrary decisions, like letting five left cars that were in between Verstappen and Hamilton go by, rather than all of them or none of them, affected the race. If they don’t let them by then Verstappen doesn’t win even if they go green. Or if they follow the rules and they all go by, then there is not enough time for the race to finish under green.

    Article 48.12:

    Any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car.”

    Follow the rules. Or forget the rules which do we want?

    The race Director made an arbitrary decision to let only a few go by and not all of them. That essentially handed the race to Max given the tire situation. If he really wanted a fair race at the end, then put out a red flag, stop the race, let everybody put new tires on and have a new start.

    Allowing the race to finish under one lap of green was ultimately really no different than finishing under yellow. Otherwise it was basically saying, “we are giving the race to Max not to Lewis,” because Max had far and away the fastest and freshest, whereas Lewis had tires that were 35 laps old and the slowest hard tire. And then they let only the cars that were between Max and Louis go through. It was simply too arbitrary.

    The real change that they need is that when a yellow comes up and they bring the Pace car out, they should allow teams a second lap to pit under yellow. Or, don’t let teams change tires under yellow. That way the trailing car, which really isn’t the better car at that point, doesn’t get an unfair advantage.

    But the other problem was that teams had no idea whether Stewards, really Masi, were going to allow another lap of real racing.

    In other words, your observation that a race shouldn’t and under yellow is fine but then Hamilton needed that information so he could box and get fresh tires on his car. You put fresh tires on Hamilton‘s car and I think you’re seeing a different outcome. As it was, it really wasn’t pure racing on the final lap because of the tire differential.

    And really, it shouldn’t have been a problem to finish under yellow. If you are going to have yellow flags come out, and that’s the only reason that Max was ever in the race as Lewis had much better race pace, then forcing an arbitrary final lap gives the advantage to those who were able to box.

    Had it been the reverse it would’ve been unfair to Max and I guarantee you Christian Hoerner and Verstappen would’ve felt they were robbed by Masi’s arbitrary decision.
     
    dont fumble likes this.

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