Formula One Appreciation Thread

"Tone_E wrote:

Mercedes "win as a team and lose as a team" except when something goes wrong, then Toto blames Bottas (stopping several inches away from marking on that pit stop with the jammed gun), Hamilton blames strategist, etc. etc. #TrulyBlessed. They're easy to dislike to be honest.

Hamilton had a super weekend but I think it highlights the drastic pace advantage the Merc had this week on this track. Last race Hamilton said repeatedly that the RB CAR was too fast, nothing he can do. Why is it a Hamilton master class when he has the absolute quickest car by a fair margin? He is also lucky it was a sprint weekend after the unfortunate wing fiasco. There is no way he starts from the back and takes the win in a normal GP, even with the car he had.

Well, on Bottas, he should be blamed. To say otherwise is to ignore that, one, he moved over to allow Verstappen to pass two races ago. Multiple observers noted that mistake; and two, it ignores that, as decent as he is, he is the inferior driver and does make mistakes. He is a middle of the pack driver in F1. To be sure he plays second fiddle to Hamilton in the team but his race pace is almost always slower than Hamilton’s and his struggles to pass cars or defend are notorious. And he doesn’t protect tires near as well as Hamilton does. Defending Bottas is simply ungrounded. There’s a reason he is going to Alpha Romeo. And, arguably, the reason he is in that slot is bec of Woolf.

When you say Hamilton blames strategist, most of those are in race situation, if you weren’t biased against him you’d also notice that Verstappen does the exact same thing even more so during races - He is constantly blaming the car set up for the strategy.. It’s simply the heat of the moment radio calls. All drivers do that.

Few people support the team off the track more than Hamilton does. He is very positive post race with Mercedes giving them credit. And often this year Mercedes has made strategy mistakes that they’ve admitted after the fact.

Hamilton did have the more powerful car but to argue it was not a great drive is just negative bias against him. To go from 20th to 5th and 10th to first was extremely impressive. And his tactics were exceptional as he figured out where to be relative to other cars going into drs zone 1 on Saturday.

Verstappen, on the OTH, reverted to his borderline over the line tactics he has been notorious for going back to his first three seasons when he often wrecked other cars. Had Hamilton stayed on the track on the first pass attempt - which he was capable of doing as he demonstrated all weekend including the final pass - Verstappen would have wrecked him.

Verstappen is a great driver. At this stage arguably the best given his prime age and Hamilton is past peak. But Max never takes the blame when he gets in wrecks others or goes over the line. He has caused more wrecks in the last five years than any F1 driver. When you compare that to drivers like Norris, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Sainz, LeClerc, those guys generally pass or defend much more fairly than Verstappen does. Just look at Hamilton and Norris when they have raced against each other. And though Leclerc makes a number of mistakes he has the humility to admit such.

"Da 'Fins wrote:

Well, on Bottas, he should be blamed. To say otherwise is to ignore that, one, he moved over to allow Verstappen to pass two races ago. Multiple observers noted that mistake; and two, it ignores that, as decent as he is, he is the inferior driver and does make mistakes. He is a middle of the pack driver in F1. To be sure he plays second fiddle to Hamilton in the team but his race pace is almost always slower than Hamilton’s and his struggles to pass cars or defend are notorious. And he doesn’t protect tires near as well as Hamilton does. Defending Bottas is simply ungrounded. There’s a reason he is going to Alpha Romeo. And, arguably, the reason he is in that slot is bec of Woolf.

When you say Hamilton blames strategist, most of those are in race situation, if you weren’t biased against him you’d also notice that Verstappen does the exact same thing even more so during races - He is constantly blaming the car set up for the strategy.. It’s simply the heat of the moment radio calls. All drivers do that.

Few people support the team off the track more than Hamilton does. He is very positive post race with Mercedes giving them credit. And often this year Mercedes has made strategy mistakes that they’ve admitted after the fact.

Hamilton did have the more powerful car but to argue it was not a great drive is just negative bias against him. To go from 20th to 5th and 10th to first was extremely impressive. And his tactics were exceptional as he figured out where to be relative to other cars going into drs zone 1 on Saturday.

Verstappen, on the OTH, reverted to his borderline over the line tactics he has been notorious for going back to his first three seasons when he often wrecked other cars. Had Hamilton stayed on the track on the first pass attempt - which he was capable of doing as he demonstrated all weekend including the final pass - Verstappen would have wrecked him.

Verstappen is a great driver. At this stage arguably the best given his prime age and Hamilton is past peak. But Max never takes the blame when he gets in wrecks others or goes over the line. He has caused more wrecks in the last five years than any F1 driver. When you compare that to drivers like Norris, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Sainz, LeClerc, those guys generally pass or defend much more fairly than Verstappen does. Just look at Hamilton and Norris when they have raced against each other. And though Leclerc makes a number of mistakes he has the humility to admit such.

Where do I demonstrate bias against Hamilton? Seems I may have struck a nerve on this one.

Shaping up to be an all time great title fight. Merc seems to have the momentum at the moment. Hamilton wasn't even using his new engine from Brazil, which will be re-installed for the next race.

Great to see Alonso back on the podium too. Gasly got screwed by his own team's strategy. Kind of a boring race though.

This is interesting.

It's definitely shaping up to be an amazing finish to an amazing season. if Hamilton wins (Ver 2nd) this next race, it'll come down to the last race for sure, and anything can happen. I certainly want each driver to settle it on the track and not have a mechanical/pit issue ruin it.

As for Bottas, it's odd, I mean he started out at Mercedes really well to the point where he could be a challenger to Hamilton perhaps. And then it just all fell apart. Once Russell had that great race as Hamilton's replacement the writing was on the wall though. And it's really going to be interesting next season once George gets installed into the team. He doesn't seem like someone that would like to play 2nd fiddle. Could be shaping up for another Hamilton/Rosberg clash, which if Russell wins it, you could see Hamilton move on. I don't know.

These drivers have to be a little off though don't they? I mean to do what they do? Fearless... to win. Fearful to lose though (I think that was Bottas, perhaps Perez?). There's some good very humble drivers though, Ricciardo, Norris, Leclerc... all seem like good guys. hard not to root for them.

Wow. That last lap during qually for Verstappen. Going to be epic race tomorrow. But that lap and his struggle at the end could be the deciding moment of the season.

Watching the race on replay. Lap 11 pit by Hamilton is a big ? mark For me. I have not been keen on strategy by Mercedes really over the course of four or five years. Will be interesting to see. But I would’ve kept Hamilton out. He was running in clean air and just fine. Too early. This will be interesting.

What a race. That track is always going to create drama. Looks like Max is reverting back to his old self again (or his true self) of being a dirty driver. Over the last two races he's proven that he won't let Lewis pass him cleanly. LOL at that brake check - only Max. The last race deciding it all is amazing, and frightening. I just hope neither car gets tangled up and the championship is won on merit. Crazy season.

Found on Formula 1 reddit, but Palmer pretty much gets this spot on - see quote below.

I remember Max running Leclerc off the circuit two years ago (forgot the race) and it was celebrated as a great defense and within the rules, and it is just Max being Max. EDIT, found the video. Max was actually passing, not defending.

Quote taken from podcast in link.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0b8b4m3

"From what I saw, Max is just happy to crash with Lewis and that is what every single flash-point was , bar the brake testing which is something different entirely. But every incident where they are racing wheel-to-wheel, it is Max saying 'hey, if we crash, we crash' and Lewis saying 'I really do not want to crash, because it is going to be really bad for the championship'. And this goes back to day two in Imola and day four in Barcelona."

"It has been the case a lot this year, but now we are getting to the end of the season and Max has had the slower car for the last few, maybe it was the quicker car this weekend in the race it was hard to tell because of the tire differences, but he certainly had a better car in qualifying - anyway."

"Every one of these incidents, he is putting his car in a position that is saying 'either I am going to exit this corner ahead, or neither of us are going to exit the corner', which is an impossible way to go racing with someone. And of course if they crash, then Max has one hand on the trophy, he has 8 points and does not even need to beat Lewis in Abu Dhabi - and if neither of them score points in Abu Dhabi, then Max is the champion so he will race like this again."

"And it is a really tricky thing trying to figure out how to work with this from here as a sport to try and just have a fair fight. Because it does not feel it is quite that at the moment, and where we are at now, for the second race of three where, basically, rather than being overtaken on track the stewards are having to just give a five-second penalty, in Brazil they did not but they should have. Max is not going to be overtaken on the track, he is going to cover the inside, not let anyone round the outside and if he goes off-track then 'to hell with it' but 'give me a penalty if you want, but I am not backing down'."

I think Max is going to win. He has the faster car on the straights since they went to that lower downforce on the team wing.

Max will get the lead at the start with the red tires and Lewis is surrounded by cars with red tires, so that could be dangerous for his falling to 3rd or 4th.

Red Bull also showed - albeit briefly - they have better long speed.

If Lewis can stay in 2nd and keep within range, then the tire strategy comes into play. I don’t think Lewis can stay too close or he will wear his tires down. But Max could get out to a 6-7 second lead or more by lap 15 or so and then he could pit and go long.

I think Mercedes are going to have to go long on the yellow and hope they have significantly more wear.

The question is, can Red Bull go one stop? And can they do it with a Red / Yellow tire? Or do they go red / yellow / yellow; or red / yellow / red two stop?

I def give Max the advantage in all that.

Max keeps saying people don’t want him to win but every week he gets driver of the day even if he’s not close to that. He has a massive fan base.

His problem is he is a dirty driver who takes it over the edge just too much. He is Uber talented. Perhaps the best going right now as Lewis is just a bit past his prime.

I just hope it is an exciting race down to the wire and no major controversy.

But Verstappen should win this one.

"Tone_E wrote:

Found on Formula 1 reddit, but Palmer pretty much gets this spot on - see quote below.

I remember Max running Leclerc off the circuit two years ago (forgot the race) and it was celebrated as a great defense and within the rules, and it is just Max being Max. EDIT, found the video. Max was actually passing, not defending.

Quote taken from podcast in link.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0b8b4m3

That’s pretty accurate, imo.

This video is a good breakdown.

Wow. What happened?

Congrats to Max and Red Bull, I think they deserved it overall but it came to a controversial final lap of the season showdown. Epic season for the ages.

Whoever finished second was going to feel like they got robbed, especially after last week. It’s unfortunate but really a result of how close the season was as well. I think had Hamilton won, more people would have been upset. Considering he was allowed to keep the lead after going wide to maintain his position. I do think that wasnt right, Verstappen was the agressor and deserved the lead. But hey its great for the sport and next year will be interesting. Im going to root for Russell in the Merc. I suspect Lewis will stand in his way until he leaves the team.

I'm happy with the finish today and not because I'm a fan of either driver. I'm a fan of racing and what we got to see all season long and today was good racing. I don't understand how anyone can want to see a race, and championship decided under a yellow flag parade for an incident that was several laps ago. The only issue here IMO is because of the fans of either driver being upset.

The only real change to the "rule" today was simply allowing only part of the lapped cars to proceed through. Under normal circumstances they would ALL get to pass the leader; however that kind of time wasn't available due to it being lap 57 of 58. The only two cars that mattered on the track at that point were the 44 in first, and the 33 in second. The rest of the field was irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. What does it matter if the last handful of drivers a lap down or more get through? Their race is technically already over it makes sense to get them out of the way so you can have your final race, and championship and an otherwise epic season decided under racing conditions.

The fact of the matter is Mercedes made a strategy decision not to pit under the SC, banking on the race not going back to green. They knew if they pitted, Max wouldn't so he would take the lead. Everyone knew RedBull would do the opposite of Merc in that situation; they had to! It was their only shot. They got the track cleaned up in time, and had the opportunity to finish a race under racing conditions. That should always be the FIA's goal IMO. Like Masi told Toto; this is motor racing and IMO they did what they could do to get a race to finish as an actual race. I can't fault that as a fan of racing in general. If Merc pits Lewis and Max stays out; then what? We either finish the race under the SC and Max wins it all, or we restart allowing the lapped cars through and Lewis wins on fresh tires over Max. The problem here is their decision didn't go their way and now in typical F1 fashion the team on the short end will cry constantly to the FIA after the race. Honestly all the BS like this in F1 is wearing on my fandom.

F1 needs to do 4 things during this break:
1. Eliminate the ability to change tyres & repair cars under red flags.
2. Eliminate the ability for teams to directly lobby to the race stewards and race direction. Let them be the impartial referee's they're supposed to be.
3. Create a rule to allow for finishes under Green racing conditions.
4. Clarify rules around overtaking penalties and their associated penalties. Far too unclear and inconsistent this year.

"brandon27 wrote:

I'm happy with the finish today and not because I'm a fan of either driver. I'm a fan of racing and what we got to see all season long and today was good racing. I don't understand how anyone can want to see a race, and championship decided under a yellow flag parade for an incident that was several laps ago. The only issue here IMO is because of the fans of either driver being upset.

The only real change to the "rule" today was simply allowing only part of the lapped cars to proceed through. Under normal circumstances they would ALL get to pass the leader; however that kind of time wasn't available due to it being lap 57 of 58. The only two cars that mattered on the track at that point were the 44 in first, and the 33 in second. The rest of the field was irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. What does it matter if the last handful of drivers a lap down or more get through? Their race is technically already over it makes sense to get them out of the way so you can have your final race, and championship and an otherwise epic season decided under racing conditions.

The fact of the matter is Mercedes made a strategy decision not to pit under the SC, banking on the race not going back to green. They knew if they pitted, Max wouldn't so he would take the lead. Everyone knew RedBull would do the opposite of Merc in that situation; they had to! It was their only shot. They got the track cleaned up in time, and had the opportunity to finish a race under racing conditions. That should always be the FIA's goal IMO. Like Masi told Toto; this is motor racing and IMO they did what they could do to get a race to finish as an actual race. I can't fault that as a fan of racing in general. If Merc pits Lewis and Max stays out; then what? We either finish the race under the SC and Max wins it all, or we restart allowing the lapped cars through and Lewis wins on fresh tires over Max. The problem here is their decision didn't go their way and now in typical F1 fashion the team on the short end will cry constantly to the FIA after the race. Honestly all the BS like this in F1 is wearing on my fandom.

F1 needs to do 4 things during this break:
1. Eliminate the ability to change tyres & repair cars under red flags.
2. Eliminate the ability for teams to directly lobby to the race stewards and race direction. Let them be the impartial referee's they're supposed to be.
3. Create a rule to allow for finishes under Green racing conditions.
4. Clarify rules around overtaking penalties and their associated penalties. Far too unclear and inconsistent this year.

I don’t think those rule changes solve the issue. Although I agree with partially with one and agree with four.

The deeper issue with number two is that F1 is so expensive that they struggle to get manufacturers to participate. They are constantly scrambling to get 10 teams in place. If Mercedes decided they were out, F1 might simply collapse. And once they allow a race Director like Masi to make arbitrary decisions that favor one driver - as he did in this race - then you have to allow teams to talk to him about that. Imagine an official changing the rules in the middle of a dolphins game. And it goes against them. I guarantee you would be feel robbed.

And your take is also arguing that football/basketball coaches, etc. should never be allowed to talk to officials? There’s no sport where a competitor can’t talk to an official.

Allowing tire changes under red flags is really not much different than allowing tire changes on the first lap of a yellow, imo. In fact, I think that’s what they should’ve done to allow fair racing at the end it’s just red flag the race with the lab to go then let the racing start over. With fresh tires for all.

And allowing the race Director to make arbitrary decisions, like letting five left cars that were in between Verstappen and Hamilton go by, rather than all of them or none of them, affected the race. If they don’t let them by then Verstappen doesn’t win even if they go green. Or if they follow the rules and they all go by, then there is not enough time for the race to finish under green.

Article 48.12:

“Any cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car.”

Follow the rules. Or forget the rules which do we want?

The race Director made an arbitrary decision to let only a few go by and not all of them. That essentially handed the race to Max given the tire situation. If he really wanted a fair race at the end, then put out a red flag, stop the race, let everybody put new tires on and have a new start.

Allowing the race to finish under one lap of green was ultimately really no different than finishing under yellow. Otherwise it was basically saying, “we are giving the race to Max not to Lewis,” because Max had far and away the fastest and freshest, whereas Lewis had tires that were 35 laps old and the slowest hard tire. And then they let only the cars that were between Max and Louis go through. It was simply too arbitrary.

The real change that they need is that when a yellow comes up and they bring the Pace car out, they should allow teams a second lap to pit under yellow. Or, don’t let teams change tires under yellow. That way the trailing car, which really isn’t the better car at that point, doesn’t get an unfair advantage.

But the other problem was that teams had no idea whether Stewards, really Masi, were going to allow another lap of real racing.

In other words, your observation that a race shouldn’t and under yellow is fine but then Hamilton needed that information so he could box and get fresh tires on his car. You put fresh tires on Hamilton‘s car and I think you’re seeing a different outcome. As it was, it really wasn’t pure racing on the final lap because of the tire differential.

And really, it shouldn’t have been a problem to finish under yellow. If you are going to have yellow flags come out, and that’s the only reason that Max was ever in the race as Lewis had much better race pace, then forcing an arbitrary final lap gives the advantage to those who were able to box.

Had it been the reverse it would’ve been unfair to Max and I guarantee you Christian Hoerner and Verstappen would’ve felt they were robbed by Masi’s arbitrary decision.

"Paul 13 wrote:

Whoever finished second was going to feel like they got robbed, especially after last week. It’s unfortunate but really a result of how close the season was as well. I think had Hamilton won, more people would have been upset. Considering he was allowed to keep the lead after going wide to maintain his position. I do think that wasnt right, Verstappen was the agressor and deserved the lead. But hey its great for the sport and next year will be interesting. Im going to root for Russell in the Merc. I suspect Lewis will stand in his way until he leaves the team.

Based on Mercedes’ spending this year I suspect they will be super competitive next year. I am rooting for Lewis next year. But will also root for George at Merc and also McLaren. Big Norris fan. And Ricciardo.

I used to like Max - his race in the rain at Austin a few years ago is still some of the best, if not the best, driving I’ve seen. But not a big fan so much anymore as I think he crosses the edge way too often.

Bottom line, Lewis deserved the win, and Max deserved the Championship in my opinion.

The aftermath of this final race is just beginning.

This is interesting.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/12/norris-race-directors-lapped-cars-decision-was-for-tv/

Norris: Race director’s lapped cars decision ‘was for TV’
2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix
Posted on
12th December 2021, 18:35 | Written by Ida Wood

Lando Norris says the decision by FIA race director Michael Masi to allow only a limited number of drivers to unlap themselves behind the safety car late in the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix was “for the TV” spectacle.

Rather than allowing lapped cars to pass, as is often procedure, race control informed teams they would be staying in formation while behind the safety car.

However, that decision was very quickly reversed once the initial decision was communicated to drivers, but only for the five lapped cars sat between the top two title contenders. At the front of that group of lapped cars was Norris, who gave his verdict on the unprecedented race control decision and final lap restart.

“I don’t know what decisions were made based upon things the stewards said in the first place,” Norris explained.

“If that then made Lewis or made Mercedes make the decision to not box, but then later on they suddenly said now they’re allowed to overtake, then I guess that’s not acceptable.

“I don’t know exactly what was said or what was done or so on , but a controversial end, that’s all I can say.”

Norris said he was surprised when he got the green light from the FIA to pass Hamilton and the safety car, suggesting it was a decision made purely to create an entertaining finish to the race.

“I didn’t actually know it was only the first three or four up to Max ,” Norris said. “So it was obviously made to be a fight. It was for the TV, of course. It was for the result. Whether or not it was fair, it’s hard for me to decide.”

In answer to a question from RaceFans about if he was surprised about the first message too, which told drivers not to pass the safety car, he added: “Sometimes they let you go, sometimes they don’t. It’s just fifty-fifty, half the time.

“But the call, they said they’re not going to let us pass. So I’m guessing that was a message to say they were just not going to let us pass at all. But then to suddenly do it just for the final lap and for a one-lap shootout, I’m a bit surprised by.”

Gasly in Miami working out.

Anyone following the car launches and all the varied philosophies? Shaping up to be an exciting season.

"Tone_E wrote:

Anyone following the car launches and all the varied philosophies? Shaping up to be an exciting season.

Yes, interesting and different concepts. Yet I still wonder what is real and what is fake.
merc looks fast, but probably because its' the common look. But if they really can cool the engine with that design, they should have some top end.
And opposed to the Ferraris front wing, their concept seems to make the most sense re the verturi tunnels. But what do I know, such a fascinating complex thing.
I just hope for great racing with more than just two drivers at the top and no shitty "officiating".

"dont fumble wrote:

Yes, interesting and different concepts. Yet I still wonder what is real and what is fake.
merc looks fast, but probably because its' the common look. But if they really can cool the engine with that design, they should have some top end.
And opposed to the Ferraris front wing, their concept seems to make the most sense re the verturi tunnels. But what do I know, such a fascinating complex thing.
I just hope for great racing with more than just two drivers at the top and no ****ty "officiating".

Agreed. Masi gone and that needed to happen.

It'll be interesting to see all these different concepts on track. Other than Ferrari's sidepods, their low drag front wing is the most intriguing aspect of the car to me, and their philosophy varies from the norm more so than any other car on the grid.

Merc does look lean and mean as well.

Should be an interesting year.

Hey guys, haven't been following much of the offseason stuff, but am very much looking forward to this weekend's activities as we head back for round 1 of the 2022 f1 season. FYI, Drafkings now offers fantasy betting on F1!!! So check that out if you're into that sort of thing!

Did f1 update their rules with respect to penalties handed out for in race violations? That whole thing last year, last two races, was ridiculous. Especially the next to last race (which has kind of gone forgotten since the last race was very controversial). The whole letting the car back ahead of you if you've passed them incorrectly needs revamping. They should just make it a drive thru penalty (in the pits)... but then I guess that could be too damaging if other cars get around you and you lose more than one spot. Clearly Verstappen wanted Luis to go around him at a certain point in that track so he could be setup to pass him again. So that really needs to be looked at. Not easy I guess heh...

That was some race weekend! Congrats to Ferrari who appear to be "back." I don't really root for any driver or team, I'm a bit neutral I guess. But I have found myself rooting AGAINST Max recently. And was very happy to see him go from 2nd to the back on a mechanical issue. His audio during the race is a part of the reason why I found myself rooting against him. He's such a whiny baby. Don't get me wrong, he's an incredible driver with elite talent... but he should be nicer to his team.

"Paul 13 wrote:

That was some race weekend! Congrats to Ferrari who appear to be "back." I don't really root for any driver or team, I'm a bit neutral I guess. But I have found myself rooting AGAINST Max recently. And was very happy to see him go from 2nd to the back on a mechanical issue. His audio during the race is a part of the reason why I found myself rooting against him. He's such a whiny baby. Don't get me wrong, he's an incredible driver with elite talent... but he should be nicer to his team.

I'm the opposite. I started off disliking Max and am starting to like him more and more. I personally think Lewis is more of a whiner on the radio.

Telemetry data suggests Ferrari have a great all round package and potentially superior engine to Honda and Mercedes. However, the Merc is showing great pace even though they had to compromise their package to limit porpoising - heavy downforce rear wing and raised ride height. They have great potential and a lot of pace to unlock if they can get their concept to work. They'll be right up there with F and RB in my opinion.

Championship will be defined by whoever has the better development over the course of the season. Everyone is just still understanding their cars.

McLaren, what is you doing baby?