This is a new thread to discuss GoT books and, if you like, how they differ from the HBO TV show. speculate all you want in here about the books, where they are going in story line etc etc. You should continue to use spoiler tags here as well, as needed.
So, what did S04E03 tell us about the books? Spoiler Let's assume that the books and the show are working toward the same ending. That means that major reveals in the show are plot points from the books. If the Other from the end of S04E03 is actually the Night's King, then it means the theory that Stannis becomes the Night's King is wrong. Stannis now returns to being a viable contender for the Iron Throne, with the others currently being (f)Aegon, Daenerys, Euron, and Tommen. I'm also starting to think that the show will reveal Jon's parentage before the books.
lol @ HBO causing a major ****storm. They've since changed the description, for whatever reason. But the original has been saved. Spoiler And I agree... Spoiler HBO will reveal Jon's parentage before the books. In fact, they might do it before he gets the Caesar treatment. I've suspected that Bran will end up being the key to that story. With his visions, they can easily explain R+L=J and anything else for that matter. As far as Stannis becoming the Night's King, I've always felt that theory had too many holes in it. I do like the theory that Bran the Builder is the Night's King though. Kind of a great twist, given that he established the Starks and created Winterfell and the Wall, becoming one of the realm's greatest heroes. Suddenly, he transforms and becomes one of it's greatest villains but to protect the realm and the Stark legacy, his brother had any record of his fall destroyed.
I'm curious how Meeren is going to work out given the pace they're going at it. Spoiler Kind of sad they cut arristan and Jorah going into the sewers as penance for Dany. Jorah still needs get kicked to the curb so I'm sure that will be in Dany's later episodes this season. Martin has said they could pull 3 more seasons from the 2 other books, but I don't see how that's possible. If that happens, that means Dany will be in Meeren until 2016 and maybe still there in season 7. I don't think there's enough content to pull that off. Even the thought of staying in Meeren until next season isn't a good one. I think we're going to get the content that was cut from ADWD that will appear in TWOW before the book gets released. Bronn is going to be traveling with Jaime next season. He'll continue the Ilyn Payne role which will keep him on the show.
Why do we have to use spoiler tags for a book/show discussion, again? Spoiler I'm curious if maybe Jon Snow is going to play the part of coldhands? Jon is already going to kill the night watch mutineers, which is what coldhands does. I would be really disappointed not to see him. In fact, I'd really like it if they revealed who he is. Then again, perhaps he's not important enough and they would rather not open up a can of worms, introducing a new mystery that doesn't really matter.
George Martin says a lot of things... There's no way they can get 2-3 seasons from books 4-5. George seriously went off the rails with adding so much **** to those books when he should have been trying to close the series. Since the producers have said they want 7 seven seasons, I can easily see them cutting out a bunch of unnecessary things. Unnecessary, at least, as far as they show goes. Books 4-5 are going to be one season. Cutting season 3 into two seasons has had its benefits, but it's also been somewhat... uneven. Just look at how slowly the entire wall arc is progressing. Since books 4-5 take place simultaneously (at least for the most part), I think TPTB should cut the fat and make an awesome season. For example, Spoiler Victorian isn't even listed amongst the greyjoy family tree. Even though he's kind of a cool character, maybe they cut his *** out. And maybe, they'll give Asha his storyline (with a few alterations?)... I dunno, we'll see. As for a major character not introduced on the show just year... Spoiler Am I the only one who hates Aegon? Introducing him has been the biggest mistake in the series, IMO.
Spoiler i think we're finally going to see Cold Hands. We heard the ravens last episode and you have to think that something is going to keep Bran away from Jon during the attack on Craster's. Maybe John attacks the mutineers, , then Cold Hands shows up to unleash the ravens and then escorts Bran to Bloodraven?
I think Victarion's role is going to be folded into Euron. In one of the earlier versions of Quaithe's prophecy to Dany, she doesn't say "kraken and dark flame" but says Victarion and Euron, so it's possible they go that route on the show. Which blows, because I want to see a guy in full plate and a battleaxe tear it up while on a boat.
I'm not going to make a quotefest, so... Spoiler Coldhands: confirmed not in season 4 according to everything I've read. Probably won't be in season 5 unless Coldhands is Benjen Stark, in which case he's not in season 4 because they don't want to give it away yet. Season lengths: books 4 and 5 could easily feed 3 seasons. There's an enormous amount of content there. ADWD is the largest book in the series, AFFC close behind. If book 1 is one season, and book 1 isn't nearly as long as 4 and 5, then it stands to reason that 3 seasons of content could be made from those 2 books. I have no problem with that projection, it makes sense to me. Aegon: he's interesting but I'm not really compelled by him. He feels like cannon fodder. Jon Connington being gay for Rhaegar doesn't interest me either. Victarion: they can't roll his plot into Asha/Yara because she has to be in the North for Stannis the Mannis related reasons. Either Euron sails to Slaver's Bay, or the plotline is cut entirely by Dany hijacking the Yunkai/Volantis fleet to sail to Westeros (assuming she hitches a ride with Victarion in TWOW).
Spoiler If Coldhands doesn't appear this season, I'm not sure how they can re-introduce him in season 5. There is no Coldhands mystery if he's not introduced, regardless of who he is. And given that we've gotten more from the white walkers in this one episode than we have in three seasons, Coldhands is the perfect avenue to drive the mythology. Frankly, given that episode 9 is the crescendo of the season (likely feature the Night's Watch/Wildlings war), I think saving Coldhands for the finale would be a nice touch and give the fans a juicy tidbit while we're coming down from episode 9. Hopefully, it's a well kept secret. AFFC/ADWD has so many new subplots, it's ridiculous. In fact, both books feature a ton of POV from non main characters. I have little doubt they can cut both books to one season and cut the fat. Sorry, but Sam has 5 chapters in AFFC. His TV show screentime won't reflect that, IMO. Perhaps it will be two seasons, which is why HBO ordered 5 and 6 together? I dunno. But D&D both said they want 7 seasons. HBO said they hoped for 8 but would do 7. And George suggest that books 5-6 should be 2 seasons, WoW 2 seasons, and ADOS 2 seasons for 10... Which is a pipe dream. Once these contracts come up, these GoT actors will want to get paid... And the show is already costs 60 million to make. It's not going to happen. Shame HBO refuses to add 2 episodes per season to make 12. Should be interesting to see it play out, I'm not in a rush for the show to end. Agreed with Aegon. Cannon Fodder was a good way to describe him. As for Victorian, he was listed on HBO's website for the Greyjoy's family tree in season 1 and removed at the start of season 2. I would love for him to be there, with Ray Stevenson playing the part. I just don't think it will happen. We'll see.
Continuation of the conversation about Jon Snow/Craster invented storyline from the other thread... Spoiler In the other thread, we were talking about the invention of the Craster's keep storyline. I had said that I felt that giving Jon something to do, in an effort to prove himself as being worthy of Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, wasn't such a bad thing. An episode later, it appears I had the writer's intentions wrong. Instead of bolstering Jon's stock w/a raid on Craster's keep, it turned out to be a politically savvy move. Slynt establishes that Jon has popularity amongst the Night's Watch as he trains new recruits, which is established in a nice call back moment from season 1, when Mormont points out Jon is basically a bully in the sparring fights and that's why no one likes him. Anyway, Jon's popularity and leadership are on full display and Allister and Slynt recognizes this. Both want to crush Jon before he gets momentum going heading into the elections. Whereas Allister is all fire and brimstone, Slynt comes up with a politically savvy maneuver. Send Jon to Craster's, as he requested. This puts Jon in the line of fire and could possibly kill him (again, by his own request). And by making this mission on a voluntary basis only, it ensures those closest to Jon go with him. Even if Jon is successful, perhaps enough of his friends and would be political allies die in the process, cutting him off at the knees come election time. Combined with Locke's arrival and the danger he posses, it actually is a well rounded story, which will lead into the elections and political maneuvering seamlessly. Kudos to the writers. I like what they did there.
Spoiler I suppose it's an acceptable substitute for the original storyline of two rival candidates tossing support behind Jon Snow to make sure the other doesn't get the job. Disagreed about AFFC/ADWD content. That can easily be 3 seasons. Using Sam's chapters as examples of bloat is bunk to me, because a lot happens in those chapters. Aemon dies, Arya kills a deserter, there's Gilly/Sam character development, Marwyn is introduced, and the Citadel's conspiracy is introduced. What I want to know is how they'll handle Bloodraven.
Spoiler The problems I have with a AFFC/ADWD are two fold. 1. Martin changes from writing a very specific narrative w/a strong backdrop, to the creation of a fantasy world, where the story is at times, secondary. 2. Martin loses complete control of plot, pacing, and beats. Martin writes almost stream of conscience. From every detail of every thought of every character to a complete and throughout analysis of nipples... It's too much. AFFC/ADWD is filled with unnecessary bloat. Moreso with AFFC than ADWD since those characters advance the plot better. This doesn't mean AFFC/ADWD are bad. They're not. But they're far more tedious than the previous novels and needed massive edits to combine them into one, great, streamlined book. GoT is still GOAT book in the series for that very reason. I kind of feel like George lost sight of what he was doing with these books. I'll give you an example besides Sam. Cersei has 10 chapters dedicated to her POV in AFFC. Cersei has 207 pages dedicated to her POV in AFFC. Her character in AFFC is stagnant. Martin clearly has little interest in progressing her character and making her something other than a psycho *****. OK. Fine. Frankly, it does help push the story forward. When you break down the specifics of Cersei's plot, it's actually pretty good... After three books of Cersei begging for power, she's got it. She's full on scheming, trying to rule the Kingdom, win a war, and everything she does backfires... Obviously you know the specifics of her arc, so I won't get too into it. And yet, in the end, all we're left is Cersei, alone, scared, and writing for Jaime... Awful. Cersei's story absolutely does NOT require 10 chapters and 207 pages of dedication to her POV. Not even close. We could easily half those numbers (or more) and still get the same story, with solid characterization. Instead, we're subjected to far too much repetitiveness in her characterization and plot. This is why I think GoT doing 2 seasons on these stories is a terrible idea... Too much bloat and not enough plot development, bad pacing and beats. Again, this is more true of AFFC than ADWD, but since they're taking place at the same time, it's going to be so difficult to put a cohesive story together by meshing the two and coming up with proper pacing and beats. Trim the fat... As much as you can, and get it into one season.
Spoiler The point of Cersei's POVs is to show the situation in King's Landing and set up the Crownlands and Stormlands region for fAegon's attack. There's plenty of stuff in AFFC and ADWD to read. Theories like the Great Northern Conspiracy and the Winterfell Huis Clos prove that there's plenty going on in the pages, the "problem" being that our POV characters become unreliable narrators. You then have to read between the lines to find out what's really going on. I think it's pretty obvious GRRM reshuffled the board in the middle acts, AFFC and ADWD, which can be considered one book, to set up the final acts, TWOW and ADOS. Stuff like this proves there's plenty going on.
While a lot less in books 4 and 5, I don't think they need to condense them down to one season. I think they can get two seasons out of it.
Given De Havilland Law, I can't see this show going beyond 7 seasons. Season 8 would cost a metric **** ton. Not that HBO couldn't do it, see Rome. However, they would have to make sure they could even get the principal cast to return. All of them. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. ATEOTD, the producers know how ASOIAF will end and will trim/cut whatever unnecessary plot, filler, and characters as needed.
They already cut a pretty decently big plot point in the fifth book this season. Unless they are changing the way things work. I do hope you are right. The 4th and 5th book are pretty lame. You are probably right.
I don't think books 4/5 are lame. Really good stuff does happen. It just bloated and GRRM takes forever to get the point. The pacing of the books is really off. He also introduces tons of subplots and characters that aren't endgame material, IMO. He also writes himself into the "Meereenese knot." Which, if he's solved that problem, it could go a long way into streamlining the show. As far as the books go, I'm fine with AFFC/ADWD for the most part. I have my complaints, but if the final two books deliver, it's all good. Frankly, the worst of asoiaf is better than most. My issue only resides in adapting AFFC/ADWD for television, it won't work. It will kill the momentum of the show to do a close adaptation. And given how liberal season 4 has been, I dare say the trend will continue to do what GRRM should of done, trim the fat. It would be nice for HBO to extend the next few seasons to 13 episodes. Obviously that won't happen because HBO won't make as much money, but 3 seasons with 3 extra episodes is an extra season. An alternative, that wouldn't shock me if HBO makes season 7 into a two parter though (like Breaking Bad and The Soprano's) to get past De Havilland Law and not have to renegotiate contracts for the cast.
Personally, I am not a fan. I think most of the content in the 4/5 books could be skipped and anything interesting could have been told in flashbacks. I was mostly bored waiting for stuff to happen
I liked AFFC and ADWD just as much as ASOS. I also found that AFFC and ADWD reward re-reading. There's a LOT of foreshadowing and a lot to gleam. Spoiler It's strongly implied that the Horn of Winter is buried under Winterfell, and that Mance Rayder wrote the pink letter, among other things.
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