Gase wants Tanny more aggressive

"Finster wrote:

The problem I have with this statement is that it's contradictory to what he was saying last year about Doughty, who wasn't following progressions but was completing passes, and Gase was saying he doesn't know how he's doing it, but he needs to learn to follow his progressions.

It sounds more like he's frustrated with RT, and I know how he feels.

I do not think it contradicts what he did with Doughty last year. Doughty is not at the point in his development as a pro to be going off the beaten path.

It is like if someone taught themselves how to play piano. To start playing good classic music, they are going to have to relearn some of the basics and get rid of some bad habits. Right now Tannehill is ready for jazz.

Be more "aggressive" is the key word..." get the first down by any means necessary"

What Gase imo is saying is that he needs to play off the script with more conviction..go thru your first and 2nd read, if it ain't there you have to have a plan, start to understand the concept of resetting your platform thru the traffic with more anticipation and quickness, or if the yardage is right in front of you, and the read is covered, be aggressive in your approach to tuck it and run for the first down..

Imo Ryan has not been conscious of these parts of the game yet..so far and the stats back it up, he waits til the very last fraction to use his athleticism, often times, actually more than any other, the result is a sack, occasionally, he will escape and make a play..I don't think waiting til the last second for receivers to open is the way to win, convert first downs, or score points, especially when your bringing the type of skillset that Ryan has..

Now I truly understand Ryans athletic limitations, they are laterally challenged ones, but anticipation and being more aware of what being aggressive means in relation to what Gase is talking about is what is needed to give us the best chance to convert, score, and win.

The game finally slowed for ryan last year, now its time to understand that when you consciously escape with a plan, when you consciously tuck it and run it for first downs, the impact these threats pose to a defense is sooo valuable..

I see Ryan improving in this regard this year because he usually improves incrementally every year on his weaknesses, and I know he's not stupid, and I know he's been trained improperly, but if we want to win championships, it's not just about improving from the pocket, it's about improving this element of qb'ing, which has currently not been in his repertoire.

"danmarino wrote:

I'd still have to give that trophy to the Pats. Nearly any QB can step in for Brady and do as well or nearly as well as he does. Look at Garroppolo and Cassell for examples.

Cassell has NEVER done as well, or nearly as well, as Brady, anywhere at any time. They went from 117 rating to 50 TDs, to 89 rating, and 21 TDs.

On what planet is that as well, or nearly as well?

Garrapolo in really short time was excellent. Is that a knock on Brady? We don't know yet. For all we know it could be Favre/Rodgers. Or not. Time will tell. And time will really tell when Brady retires.

"djphinfan wrote:

Be more "aggressive" is the key word..." get the first down by any means necessary"

What Gase imo is saying is that he needs to play off the script with more conviction..go thru your first and 2nd read, if it ain't there you have to have a plan, start to understand the concept of resetting your platform thru the traffic with more anticipation and quickness, or if the yardage is right in front of you, and the read is covered, be aggressive in your approach to tuck it and run for the first down..

Imo Ryan has not been conscious of these parts of the game yet..so far and the stats back it up, he waits til the very last fraction to use his athleticism, often times, actually more than any other, the result is a sack, occasionally, he will escape and make a play..I don't think waiting til the last second for receivers to open is the way to win, convert first downs, or score points, especially when your bringing the type of skillset that Ryan has..

Now I truly understand Ryans athletic limitations, they are laterally challenged ones, but anticipation and being more aware of what being aggressive means in relation to what Gase is talking about is what is needed to give us the best chance to convert, score, and win.

The game finally slowed for ryan last year, now its time to understand that when you consciously escape with a plan, when you consciously tuck it and run it for first downs, the impact these threats pose to a defense is sooo valuable..

I see Ryan improving in this regard this year because he usually improves incrementally every year on his weaknesses, and I know he's not stupid, and I know he's been trained improperly, but if we want to win championships, it's not just about improving from the pocket, it's about improving this element of qb'ing, which has currently not been in his repertoire.

If Ryan Tannehill ever becomes a pre-snap sage, he can probably predict who will be open and who won't, presnap, and skip the latter reads. It all comes with experience and ability, he'll get the experience, let's see if he has the ability.

"jdang307 wrote:

Cassell has NEVER done as well, or nearly as well, as Brady, anywhere at any time. They went from 117 rating to 50 TDs, to 89 rating, and 21 TDs.

On what planet is that as well, or nearly as well?

Garrapolo in really short time was excellent. Is that a knock on Brady? We don't know yet. For all we know it could be Favre/Rodgers. Or not. Time will tell. And time will really tell when Brady retires.

If you want to cherry pick one season, his overwhelmingly best season, from a 9 year NFL veteran QB and compare that to Cassel, a 2nd year bench warmer who also happened to be a late 7th round pick who had not started a game since high school, that's fine. You won't come to any meaningful conclusions, however.

OTOH, if you want to average out Brady's (up to that point) career you'd find that Cassel and Brady were much closer, when playing for the Pats, than most Brady fans want to believe.

Of course he cherry picks one season. That's what always happens when the Brady/Cassel topic comes up.

"resnor wrote:

Of course he cherry picks one season. That's what always happens when the Brady/Cassel topic comes up.

I don't expect intellectual honesty, but maybe some creativity would be nice.....

"danmarino wrote:

If you want to cherry pick one season, his overwhelmingly best season, from a 9 year NFL veteran QB and compare that to Cassel, a 2nd year bench warmer who also happened to be a late 7th round pick who had not started a game since high school, that's fine. You won't come to any meaningful conclusions, however.

OTOH, if you want to average out Brady's (up to that point) career you'd find that Cassel and Brady were much closer, when playing for the Pats, than most Brady fans want to believe.

It's not a cherry pick. It's literally the year he played before with those receiving options.

I dare you to go anywhere in public and say Cassell did nearly as well as Brady and try NOT to get laughed out of the room.

Brady was already a shoo in for the HOF at that point and you are saying Cassell did nearly as well. He just broke records with those receivers and Cassell barely gets 40% of the TDs. 27 pts higher rating. But this qualifies as nearly as well.

Well Moore did BETTER than Tanny. Not as well. Better. 11-12 pt higher passer rating. 80% better td percentage.

If you want to compare their first games in a new offense it gets even uglier.

Well, it's a bit of a stretch to say that Cassell played at Brady level, but it was one of his two good seasons (the other with the Chiefs) so if the argument is that the Patriots can squeeze out the best from any quarterback that is a good point.

On the original argument of the topic I like that Gase wants Ryan to take more chances downfield: he started last season saying that the NFL is a dink-dunk league and few teams have a vertical passing game but seeing how well Tannehill threw deep last season it's good coaching wanting to do it more.

It is cherry picking, as Brady has never put up those sort of numbers again.

"jdang307 wrote:

It's not a cherry pick. It's literally the year he played before with those receiving options.

I dare you to go anywhere in public and say Cassell did nearly as well as Brady and try NOT to get laughed out of the room.

Brady was already a shoo in for the HOF at that point and you are saying Cassell did nearly as well. He just broke records with those receivers and Cassell barely gets 40% of the TDs. 27 pts higher rating. But this qualifies as nearly as well.

Well Moore did BETTER than Tanny. Not as well. Better. 11-12 pt higher passer rating. 80% better td percentage.

If you want to compare their first games in a new offense it gets even uglier.

No, it's actually cherry picking at it's finest. I would never cherry pick Daunte Culpepper's best season with Randy Moss and say, "Hey! He's HoF worthy!"

The same goes with comparing Cassel and Brady. And the facts are, up to that point in their careers, even when factoring in Brady's best season, they were both a ~3500 yard, 20-25 TD, 11-12 INT, high 80's passer rating quarterback. And when Brady came back, with Moss, he threw something like 6 more TD's and a .9 better TD% than Cassel did the year prior. So why not look at that ONE season? It's all the same, right? lol

"Gaijin wrote:

Well, it's a bit of a stretch to say that Cassell played at Brady level, but it was one of his two good seasons (the other with the Chiefs) so if the argument is that the Patriots can squeeze out the best from any quarterback that is a good point.

On the original argument of the topic I like that Gase wants Ryan to take more chances downfield: he started last season saying that the NFL is a dink-dunk league and few teams have a vertical passing game but seeing how well Tannehill threw deep last season it's good coaching wanting to do it more.

Not really. If you average out Brady's career up to that point he and Cassell where nearly identical.

"danmarino wrote:

Not really. If you average out Brady's career up to that point he and Cassell where nearly identical.

Dont cherry-pick if you dont want others to do so.

Cassell has never been on the same level as Brady, nonetheless the Patriots squeezed out of him good qb play over that season, a level of play he reached only once more in his career.

Brady on the other hand grew a lot as a player, at the start of his career he was basically a game manager and built his skills over the years. And of course before 2005 he played under less stringent pass interference officiating than Cassell (it's no mistery that QB rating has balooned over the last 10-12 years).

It's true that New England maximizes the value of players on roster but not to the extent that Cassell is in the same league as Brady as a QB.

"Gaijin wrote:

Dont cherry-pick if you dont want others to do so.

Cassell has never been on the same level as Brady, nonetheless the Patriots squeezed out of him good qb play over that season, a level of play he reached only once more in his career.

Brady on the other hand grew a lot as a player, at the start of his career he was basically a game manager and built his skills over the years. And of course before 2005 he played under less stringent pass interference officiating than Cassell (it's no mistery that QB rating has balooned over the last 10-12 years).

It's true that New England maximizes the value of players on roster but not to the extent that Cassell is in the same league as Brady as a QB.

How am I cherry picking? I'm using, in totality, every game that Brady played in compared to every game that Cassel played in while in New England.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Cassel would/could have the same long term success in New England that Brady has had, however, it's proven fact that they both played very similarly while Cassel was in New England. And that seems to be the MO with any QB that starts a game in New England. Look at Garroppollo. And like Cassel, IMO, Garop, if traded, will fail on another team.

Also, there's a thread around here that addresses the rising passer ratings and it really hasn't "ballooned" as much as people think.

"danmarino wrote:

How am I cherry picking? I'm using, in totality, every game that Brady played in compared to every game that Cassel played in while in New England.

You are picking the part of Brady career that gives you the numbers you want, much like jdang was picking the part of brady career that gave him the numbers he wanted. Brady's worst season after the injury is better then the best season pre-injury, save 2007.

But I agree with you on the general argument that the Patriots are able to put most quarterbacks in position to succeed.

"Gaijin wrote:

You are picking the part of Brady career that gives you the numbers you want, much like jdang was picking the part of brady career that gave him the numbers he wanted. Brady's worst season after the injury is better then the best season pre-injury, save 2007.

But I agree with you on the general argument that the Patriots are able to put most quarterbacks in position to succeed.

WADR, danmarino was using Brady's entire career numbers. which is essentially the opposite of the cherry picking.

"Fin D wrote:

WADR, danmarino was using Brady's entire career numbers. which is essentially the opposite of the cherry picking.

What I understood is he was using career numbers until 2008.

IMHO Brady's entire career numbers are significantly better than Cassell's 2008 numbers.

"Gaijin wrote:

What I understood is he was using career numbers until 2008.

IMHO Brady's entire career numbers are significantly better than Cassell's 2008 numbers.

Look at Brady's numbers from 2001-2009, and you'll quickly see that that 2007 was an aberration for him. He was almost 30 points higher in rating that season. Now, he's had a couple seasons since where is rating on the year was over 100, but, 117 was defintely an aberration at that point for him.

"Gaijin wrote:

You are picking the part of Brady career that gives you the numbers you want, much like jdang was picking the part of brady career that gave him the numbers he wanted. Brady's worst season after the injury is better then the best season pre-injury, save 2007.

But I agree with you on the general argument that the Patriots are able to put most quarterbacks in position to succeed.

No I'm not. I used every season that Brady played in including his record breaking 50 TD season. I think you're looking at the wrong years. Brady, the year prior to his injury, was his best season ever and I included that year.

"Gaijin wrote:

What I understood is he was using career numbers until 2008.

IMHO Brady's entire career numbers are significantly better than Cassell's 2008 numbers.

Yes, I compared Brady's first 9 years in the league to Cassel's first year. I can't compare how they both played for the Pats when Cassel left the Pats. Point being, QB's succeed in that offense. And up to that point in Brady's career, Cassel had similar numbers.

Anyone who thinks the Pats would have missed the playoffs in '08 with Brady starting is not paying attention.

Anyone who thinks the Pats would have made the playoffs in '08 with Brady starting is just guessing.

Not making the playoffs with 11 wins is a huge rarity in this league and it just so happens that one of the 2-3 other teams that didn't were the Pats.

"danmarino wrote:

Yes, I compared Brady's first 9 years in the league to Cassel's first year. I can't compare how they both played for the Pats when Cassel left the Pats. Point being, QB's succeed in that offense. And up to that point in Brady's career, Cassel had similar numbers.

And why you cant compare all the stats made by brady in that offense vs all the stats Made by Cassell in that offense ? If you cut out the years after Cassell was traded why count the first nine years of brady career and not just the years since when Cassell was drafted then (if you cut out the part when they werent in roster together cut everything)?
Doesnt make sense to compare stats of when they both played for the patriots because there was never such an instance: either played Cassell or Brady. It wasnt even the same offense from 2001 to 2007, to me it doesnt make a lot of sense to compare the stats like you did. It's wrong as well to assume that with brady they would have reached the playoffs, it's impressive and pointing to the direction that new england has very qb friendly offenses that Cassell had one of his two good seasons there, being thrown into the fire after being a backup for like 8 years of his life. No need to say he played like brady, or close to brady level.

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"Gaijin wrote:

And why you cant compare all the stats made by brady in that offense vs all the stats Made by Cassell in that offense ? If you cut out the years after Cassell was traded why count the first nine years of brady career and not just the years since when Cassell was drafted then (if you cut out the part when they werent in roster together cut everything)?
Doesnt make sense to compare stats of when they both played for the patriots because there was never such an instance: either played Cassell or Brady. It wasnt even the same offense from 2001 to 2007, to me it doesnt make a lot of sense to compare the stats like you did. It's wrong as well to assume that with brady they would have reached the playoffs, it's impressive and pointing to the direction that new england has very qb friendly offenses that Cassell had one of his two good seasons there, being thrown into the fire after being a backup for like 8 years of his life. No need to say he played like brady, or close to brady level.

Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Cassel wasn't a back-up for 8 years. He was thrown into the fire during his 2nd season in the NFL and hadn't started a football game since high school.

Because I'm comparing 2001-2007 Brady with Cassel. I'm not saying that 15 season Brady isn't light years better than 1st year Cassel. I'm saying that 9th year Brady and 1st year Cassel weren't much different.

And in that comparison both QB's had nearly identical seasonal averages.

"danmarino wrote:

No, it's actually cherry picking at it's finest. I would never cherry pick Daunte Culpepper's best season with Randy Moss and say, "Hey! He's HoF worthy!"

That would be a cherry pick because you're picking his best season, for no other reason than it's his best season. By using 2007, it's the most recent season Brady played before Cassell took over, it's the the only season he played with Welker with Moss up to that point. It's not a cherry pick, it's the most relevant season to compare to Cassell.

Why would you include the seasons where he's playing with Reche Caldwell as his #1 receiver, when Cassell was playing with Moss and Welker? If you can't see that, then so be it.

At the end of the day, if you want to argue Cassell with his 2:1 TD/INT ratio, 89 passer rating, was nearly as well as Brady at that point, by all means, you do you.