WADR, danmarino was using Brady's entire career numbers. which is essentially the opposite of the cherry picking.
What I understood is he was using career numbers until 2008. IMHO Brady's entire career numbers are significantly better than Cassell's 2008 numbers.
Look at Brady's numbers from 2001-2009, and you'll quickly see that that 2007 was an aberration for him. He was almost 30 points higher in rating that season. Now, he's had a couple seasons since where is rating on the year was over 100, but, 117 was defintely an aberration at that point for him.
No I'm not. I used every season that Brady played in including his record breaking 50 TD season. I think you're looking at the wrong years. Brady, the year prior to his injury, was his best season ever and I included that year.
Yes, I compared Brady's first 9 years in the league to Cassel's first year. I can't compare how they both played for the Pats when Cassel left the Pats. Point being, QB's succeed in that offense. And up to that point in Brady's career, Cassel had similar numbers.
Anyone who thinks the Pats would have missed the playoffs in '08 with Brady starting is not paying attention.
Anyone who thinks the Pats would have made the playoffs in '08 with Brady starting is just guessing. Not making the playoffs with 11 wins is a huge rarity in this league and it just so happens that one of the 2-3 other teams that didn't were the Pats.
And why you cant compare all the stats made by brady in that offense vs all the stats Made by Cassell in that offense ? If you cut out the years after Cassell was traded why count the first nine years of brady career and not just the years since when Cassell was drafted then (if you cut out the part when they werent in roster together cut everything)? Doesnt make sense to compare stats of when they both played for the patriots because there was never such an instance: either played Cassell or Brady. It wasnt even the same offense from 2001 to 2007, to me it doesnt make a lot of sense to compare the stats like you did. It's wrong as well to assume that with brady they would have reached the playoffs, it's impressive and pointing to the direction that new england has very qb friendly offenses that Cassell had one of his two good seasons there, being thrown into the fire after being a backup for like 8 years of his life. No need to say he played like brady, or close to brady level. Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk
Cassel wasn't a back-up for 8 years. He was thrown into the fire during his 2nd season in the NFL and hadn't started a football game since high school. Because I'm comparing 2001-2007 Brady with Cassel. I'm not saying that 15 season Brady isn't light years better than 1st year Cassel. I'm saying that 9th year Brady and 1st year Cassel weren't much different. And in that comparison both QB's had nearly identical seasonal averages.
It is absolutely cherry picking. His argument is that, today, 2017, Belichick's system is so good that anyone can step in and play as well, or nearly as well as Brady. That's why he's ranking their backup situation better than ours, even though Moore stepped in and played significantly better than Tannehill. So to argue that, today, their backup situation is better because anyone can step in and play as well as Brady, but then only to count up until it's convenient to the argument, is cherry picking. If DM says, at that time, in 2008, Cassell played nearly as well as Brady had up to that point, but today, that is not possible, then yes, it would not be cherry picking. But that's not the argument he's making.
Stop. You can't call a large swath of someone's career cherry picking. That is literal bull****, especially when you picked one effing year yourself. Don't try to lawyer this, you're just effing wrong and you should feel bad.
You also don't look at Cassel's production outside of NE, as we're looking at NEW ENGLAND'S system, so what Cassel did in KC has no bearing on the discussion.
Uh, Jimmy G looked just as proficient in that offense for the first 3 games. Based on that small sample, I'd be willing to bet Jimmy G will be the next "GOAT" after Brady retires.
You have to look at the entire picture. Twice now, two separate 1st or 2nd year back-up QB's have backed Brady up, on day 1 of the season, and played as well has he did/does. Moore, a 9 year vet and one time starter, came in and played well at the end of the season on a team that was on a roll. And he did so against 3 teams that we had already played earlier in the year (and had the same outcome) and 3 teams that he's been a part of game planning against for 6 seasons. Also, RT had been a 5 year starter with 3 different HC's. And it's perfectly reasonable to think that RT would have had as good a games as more because RT was getting better and better right before he was injured.
It has a bearing. Had Cassell played at provowl level elsewhere it would have meant that new england system didnt help him that much and he was just a good quarterback. Given that he had a mediocre career outside NE it's a point that siggest he was just helped by playing in that environment Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk
Cassell was a backup all college and in NFL since when he was drafted, 2005. It's around 8 years. He wasnt prepared to play much and didnt have a training camp as a starter. He played very well by his standard, but a notch below the standard of what was then a prime Brady. If you compare them stats including the first brady years, when he was a work in progress throwing screen passes and playing it safe, it looks to me that you arte just trying to drag down brady numbers. He was objectively entering his prime in 2008 and a much better player than in 2001-2002 so i see no point weighing in those years. Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk
Yes, and I said we don't know if Jimmy G is Aaron Rodgers in waiting. We better hope not. Matt Moore looked just as proficient as Tanny, oh wait, MUCH more proficient than Tanny, with a 105 rating compared to Tanny's 93. Cassell put up similar stats without the benefit of playing with Welker and Moss in KC. Actually, higher. 93 vs 89 rating, 27 TDs vs 21 (almost 50% better TD%), 7 INTs vs 11. So he played objectively better in 2010, than he did in 2008, without two HOF receivers at his side. Proving, he was capable of his NE numbers outside of NE, without Belichick, Welker and Moss. But let's ignore his 2010 because ... well just because.
Argument is silly. I don't believe his point was ever than Cassell is Brady or that long term he would have had the same success. His main point seemed to be, to me, that when a backup for NE comes in they perform extremely well regardless of their prior situation. Point being that the numbers of Cassell werent that far off the averages for the team to that point. If you think Cassell does that in another system you're crazy.
No, it doesn't. I'm not claiming Cassel is a good QB. I'm not crowning Brady the GOAT, like some on this site. I've been arguing for some time that NEs system is the key, not Brady. The fact that Cassel won 11 games, and played to Brady's averages, while being mediocre elsewhere, supports that. Still, though, when comparing Brady to Cassel, in NEs system, it really doesn't matter what Cassel did in KC, because it was a different system, with different coaches, and different players.
There's so much garbage in here...what are the chances that the Patriots found the GOAT in a 6th round pick, AND THEN found Aaron Rodgers with a not 1st overall pick? Why do you want to compare what Moore did, late in the year, when the offense was clearly functioning much better than it was to start the year, with what Tannehill did?
Other than Brady just beating Manning and Marino's record for most TDs while throwing less than 10 INTs the prior year, sure. 2010 Kansas City Chiefs 262 450 58.2 3,116 6.9 27 7 93.0 2008 New England Patriots 327 516 63.4 3,693 7.2 21 11 89.4 Okay. We're all crazy then.
The same chance that the Colts would have the very first pick the two years two of the best QB prospects, came into the draft? Sort of like saying Cassell did no worse than a Brady IN HIS PRIME, by adding his early career numbers, right? Yeah. Exactly. You have argued yourself in a circle. And that was intentionally a gotcha. I don't think Moore is as good as Tanny. I put that out there to see who would be the first to distinguish Moore's performance. To point out how absurd it is to ignore what Brady just did with that team, and argue Cassell did nearly as well. He didn't do nearly as well. He threw for 40% of the touchdowns Brady did with the same receivers, and more INTs. The team went from scoring 589 points, to 410. 586/451 pass run ratio, to 534/513. 6.2 yards per play to 5.3. 8.3 ypa to 7.2. On what planet is that doing nearly as well. Not this planet.
I asked this once and you ignored it. When Brady came back, and with the same WR's etc, he threw ~5 more TD passes with a .9 better TD%, 2 MORE INT's, and was 6 points higher in passer rating than Cassel.... So why not use that ONE year? lol
LOL, I've clicked on this thread like 4 times to talk about Tannehill playing more aggressive, and each time I realized it was a conversation about the stinking Pats. So I'll add this to the conversation- screw the stinkin Pats! Are you guys really trying to compare two QB's who played at the height of the SpyGate era? Pee-Wee Herman could have won a Super Bowl at QB1 when you know every single play the other team calls as they call it. And guess what? All the supporting pieces fit a lot better on a team when players don't have to ever think.
The Colts used two #1 picks. Brady was a 6th, and Jimmy G was a 2nd. My point was exactly what are the chances you get two GOAT (hyperbole, referring to what Pats fans will claim) QBs without using two #1 overall picks. Comparing Brady's average up to 2007 with Cassell's is very fair. I understand why you want to use Brady's one record year, but it's far more fair to use his averages, and not one aberration year.
exactly, I was thinking he was completely contradicting what he was saying on Doughty. Now he wants Tannehill to be able to do what Doughty was already doing.
That's quite the assumption to make. I'm not so sure it's one I agree with. The plays are designed to do certain things, and for progressions to be followed to assure that. What Gase is getting at here IMO, is more than likely the fact he doesn't care if you're doing it by running the play as designed, or breaking away from it and taking it off script. To me, he's more hinting at the fact he's go to do more to make a play when it breaks down, rather than sitting back in the pocket and waiting. He's trying to further break him from being a pocket passer because he has the athletic ability to be more. If I remember the rest of his comments correctly, he even goes on to say just that. I think you're making an assumption to further try and drive home the point you want to make. Again, I don't think Gase's comments surrounded anything to do with progressions and his "confusion" around Doughty's finding the open man without necessarily understanding or following the progression built into the play. I thought it was pretty obvious from reading his comments in full that he's talking about simply making more plays outside of the play call if need be. If anything is progression related, being quicker might be the biggest issue here for Gase. Ultimately his comments the other day seemed more about take more chances, be more aggressive with the ball, throw the guy open, don't wait until he's open and for the love of God use your legs to make some plays before it's too late and the pocket and to be more aggressive in pushing the ball down field without the fear of making a mistake because he's not going to get a spanking from Mr. Philbin when he gets back to the sidelines if he makes a mistake. The message is essentially... take charge, move the ball at all costs in any way you need to. It's not anything more than that IMO.
To me that is what Doughty was doing, but it seemed he got in trouble for doing that. Now it seems like Gase is telling Tannehill to do it.
Well, the only reason RT is on the roster is because he was injured. So it's not a far reach to assume that Gase really wants Doughty as his starting QB and thus will give out cryptic messages to those fans that really know what he's trying to imply.
I think we're getting the two things confused here. Somehow the comments from Gase, have now been transformed into an issue with progressions. That wasn't something Gase ever mentioned about Tannehill in his comments last week. It was simply about being more aggressive, taking chances, making plays outside of the playcall when things breakdown, etc, etc. It's got nothing to do with going through your progressions, or how Doughty was completing passes without being able to explain it or follow the progressions properly. The comments Gase made were more about the mentality of his play, not anything about following progressions. I have no idea why finster would have even took it there, outside of trying to push a point and grasp at something IMO. The comments from Gase were pretty clear IMO about play style, and being aggressive. Not following progressions. I mean, he specifically made a comment about him getting caught up about standing in the pocket at times and taking a sack. He doesn't want that, he wants him to move his feet, make a play outside of the play call. Instead, now were talking about one guy throwing quickly outside of his progressions. We're not even talking about the same things here anymore IMO. Again, we're talking about a coach who made a comment about Doughty having success even though he's struggling with the progressions, but somehow making it work when nobody can explain it, not even the player, and a coach telling his QB to be more aggressive, not be afraid to make a mistake, and to use his ability to make plays when things are breaking down around him. We're talking two completely different things here.
If Tanny ever becomes a savant, he's not there yet, but if he does, he'll know based on alignment and playcall which of his progressions are likely to be open and which ones aren't. It's how Brady and Manning are/were so great. And can get the ball out in a little over 2 seconds. I believe it was discussed here, where there is no set progression on each play. It's all how the defense lines up, and the QB decides which is the #1, 2, and maybe 3 on each play. If Tanny ever gets to that elite level of reading the field, he'll know after the first or second read he's got to go and make something happen. Then, Tanny will be elite.
but if a play breaks down isn't that a progression thing? I mean why go off the first progression unless there is a "break down" on the play?
By "breakdown", mostly I am referring to going through progressions with no throw to an open man, or pressure disrupting the timing of the play forcing a reaction other than one intended, such as a scramble, or rollout/improvisation of a play.
The reason I brought progressions in was because Gase had used progressions as a baseline in both comments, but thinking about it, it could be a case of extremes, like Doughty was so off script that it was like there was no script at all, lol, which would be cause for concern, and conversely that RT will follow the script to a fault, so in that sense it wouldn't be contradictory, so I do agree that that I used too strong a word. However, I think we're way closer on this topic then you realize, because I totally agree with your final paragraph(except the part about Philbin being the reason, but I'll get to that), when I said "he's not a predator", that was my lazy way of typing out your paragraph. I couldn't have said it any better, because what you just typed out is the quintessential essence of a franchise QB, they stalk onto the field like predators because the defense is their prey, every game, they are dreaming of victims and glory, whatever it takes, especially going off script and being a hero. There are others though, that see the field as full of hidden dangers you have to avoid, and they aren't wrong are they, because we've seen the gunslingers come and go that can't keep their INTs down, and imo this is who RT is, he's one of the people that think like this. It certainly became the thing to blame Philbin, because he was a bad HC, I never liked the hiring, and he never gave me reason to think otherwise, in fact, just the opposite, the more I saw, the less I liked, but, and this is a big but, the O Philbin brought in here was much more vertical, it wasn't until year 3, week 3 or 4, that Lazor brought everything in on the O, and that's when RT showed his biggest improvement. In Gase's first year, he had to scale the O back at least twice that we know about, once with the hurry up and then later during the stretch where RT was playing well and Gase attributed that to scaling back the O a bit. I think in RTs case it is quite literally too much to WORRY about, some people just have that mindset. In fact, this comment of Gase's actually echo's of Philbin's "just rip it" campaign, lack of aggression, it all kind of points at RT's mindset being the problem IMO, he's not a predator and you can't be a franchise QB unless you are a predator. You and I agree that there is a lack of aggression being shown, we just disagree on the source, and thereby, the likelihood of rectifying the situation, your opinion which I respect, is that improper training has led him down this path and proper training will take his already adequate QB ability and push him into franchise category. That is a very sound an logical theory, that may ultimately be the correct one, it's ironclad logic, unless of course my theory is the one, that the source is his mindset, which would be highly unlikely to change. Always interesting to have 2 things on opposite ends of the board, without knowing exactly where the balance point will be, hence betting I recon. PS, that wasn't an invitation for taking bets.
Fair enough. Well done. I can agree, or agree to disagree with you there. I'm not sure which one it is. I'm not even sure though that Gase was referring to having that "killer instinct". I think he's just to get the point across more of... use all your tools. Nobody ever wants their QB to be reckless with the ball, but I feel like Tannehill was originally told to be more of a caretaker in the past. He ran around a bit early on, then it appeared he got reigned in. I feel like Gase wants him to play with more awareness of what he can do outside of the system, outside of the play when things don't go as planned. I'm sure he wants him to be a bit more carefree. I think the bout of early turnovers in his career, whether it was fumbles or INT's, or deflected INT's early on in his career had the previous staffs have him reign it in a bit. Ultimately, like you said... who knows for sure. But one thing I think we can all agree on, is a bit more use of his physical tools to go off script, and taking some more chances downfield would be beneficial. This team will benefit more if RT can become a bit more aggressive in the offense. Not alot, because you don't want a turnover machine and forcing the issue can lead to that, but more can't hurt to an extent.
Tony Romo is/was one of the most elusive QBs out there. But he never really used his legs to run. Just move around and try and make a play. But, he was elusive. Tanny isn't. His lateral movement kinda sucks. But he can move down the line pretty fast. You gotta use the tools you have. Dan had nimble feet. Big Ben, pure strength and great feet and balance. Whatever it is, get it done. That's likely what Gase is referring to. An open lane in front, take it. He's not gonna juke someone like Russell Wilson. Or power through them like Cam. If pre-snap, you made some reads, and it isn't there and there is an open lane, take it. He doesn't want Tanny to say, I need to go all 3 reads before I take off. Ideally, Tanny will see his 2nd or 3rd read is gonna be difficult anyway, and see a lane and just take it.
Good post.. Just get the first down, not only does gase not mind if Ryan sees a lane and picks up a first down with his legs, but he's not stupid, he also understands the effect of that on a defenses mentality and how he can take advantage of that schematically when their worried about the qb running for a first down...so while most people are trying to disagree with me when talking about wanting to see him consciously be aware of this and how important it is, gase gets it and realizes this is the missing element to his game that can take us and him to another level.. If the reads aren't there, gtfo of dodge and either reset the platform to throw or run for yardage...threat the defense...don't let them think your gonna sit on the same mark when you drop.
