General NBA Playoffs 2011 Thread

"PhiNomina wrote:

I think a lot of the Yankees / Heat hate is how the teams were assembled. The Yankees have a very obvious advantage over other teams because of the structure of baseball. You can call it jealousy, but it takes some of the "sport" out of it when they are given a very obvious advantage simply due to the number of residents in their city.

With the Heat, I don't think the average fan wants to watch three of the best players team up. The fun part of sports is following your team, watching them come together and feeling like you are part of it. The Heat kind of look like mercenaries. Watching a team tank for three years so that it could clear cap space isn't exactly some fairy tale ending. Add in that most people see the Heat as a collection of individuals, not a team - and, sorry guys, a less than stellar fan base, and the average fan outside of Miami isn't going to appreciate them.

Again, whether true or not, the Heat go against what most fans like think is important - watching a team come together, strong teamwork and a homefield advantage. The "talents to South Beach" line makes it sound like having nice bars and good looking women trumps those other things.

Great post man, I was thinking the same thing this morning how this Heat team was assembled like the Yankees in that they try to get the outside help now instead of building from the inside out.

And I'm not surprised that the Heat are going to win the title, when they got the big three together I said this would be a walk in the park for them and it's turn out to be just that, LeBron is getting his title he couldn't wait for, just wonder how satisfying it really will be for him because there has to be a part of him that is disappointed he didn't do it in Cleveland.

"Section126 wrote:

Puhleeze.

"Tanked" for three years?

They made the playoffs in two of those years, and not as hopeless 8th seeds. Both years as a 5th seed. Mercenaries my ass. They added two free agents. Every other team WANTED to ADD TWO free agents, but didn't. The Cavs tried to land ONE of them, but their city is gloomy, dirty, and pretty ****ty, so Bosh said thanks but no thanks. Sorry, but it is true.

Miami used their advantages to play the game the same way that EVERYBODY else does. They just played it a little bit better.

How the hell do you think teams are built in the NBA? ONLY the Spurs have built their team through the draft, and even then, they needed to be extremely fortunate to tank and land Duncan.

The Heat got screwed in the lottery and lost out on D-Rose. They cleared cap space WHILE MAKING THE PLAYOFFS, and developed some of the players that are contributing to this current run.

As for the "fanbase"...the Heat fanbase doesn't have to hear this **** from anybody. The FACTS are these...it is hard to find a team with better attendance this year, a fanbase that devoted as many $$$$$ to a team, and for that matter, the reality is this, there are several franchises such as the BOSTON CELTICS that DO NOT have better attendance than the Miami Heat in the last TEN YEARS. Long enough sample size?

I am quite frankly, sick of it, and it is time to say that enough is enough. The hatin' has turned into this passive aggressive slam on the Fans of this team, and it is just sad.

I'm not arguing that the Heat were the only team that wanted to do this, or the only team to build through free agency. Just saying why a lot of fans are turned off by it. I'm not "hating" - I think I laid out a fairly level headed argument behind what I said. It wasn't an attack in any way - I didn't say they were bad people - I was just giving my opinion on why outsiders don't jump up and down in support of the Heat. There is a difference between attacking your team and explaining why they aren't the darlings of the sporting world.

As for the fans, we've argued this 100 times. Attendance is great, but half of those sold tickets don't show up or show up late. You can tell me that the upper levels get loud as hell - but half a stadium of good fans does not make some wonderful fan base. The whole Fan Up campaign doesn't happen if you have spectacular fans.

I'm a huge Cleveland Indians fan, and I can admit that Tribe fans are just about as bad as they come. It doesn't change the fact they are in first place in their division. The Heat are going to win - and win a lot. I don't understand why Heat fans still act so tortured about it.

"PhiNomina wrote:

I'm not arguing that the Heat were the only team that wanted to do this, or the only team to build through free agency. Just saying why a lot of fans are turned off by it. I'm not "hating" - I think I laid out a fairly level headed argument behind what I said. It wasn't an attack in any way - I didn't say they were bad people - I was just giving my opinion on why outsiders don't jump up and down in support of the Heat. There is a difference between attacking your team and explaining why they aren't the darlings of the sporting world.

As for the fans, we've argued this 100 times. Attendance is great, but half of those sold tickets don't show up or show up late. You can tell me that the upper levels get loud as hell - but half a stadium of good fans does not make some wonderful fan base. The whole Fan Up campaign doesn't happen if you have spectacular fans.

I'm a huge Cleveland Indians fan, and I can admit that Tribe fans are just about as bad as they come. It doesn't change the fact they are in first place in their division. The Heat are going to win - and win a lot. I don't understand why Heat fans still act so tortured about it.

Because all they hear day in and day out is "They don't deserve this" "The fans suck" "The city sucks"...BLAH BLAH BLAH.

They are tired of being **** on.

and for this area, being as poor as it is..has spent a whole lotta $$$$$ supporting this team and just don't deserve this derision from other fan bases that are not AS GOOD.

"Section126 wrote:

Because all they hear day in and day out is "They don't deserve this" "The fans suck" "The city sucks"...BLAH BLAH BLAH.

They are tired of being **** on.

and for this area, being as poor as it is..has spent a whole lotta $$$$$ supporting this team and just don't deserve this derision from other fan bases that are not AS GOOD.

I think it's ridiclous to say they didn't deserve this, they won it fair and square, only an idiot would say they didn't deserve it.

"Section126 wrote:

Because all they hear day in and day out is "They don't deserve this" "The fans suck" "The city sucks"...BLAH BLAH BLAH.

They are tired of being **** on.

and for this area, being as poor as it is..has spent a whole lotta $$$$$ supporting this team and just don't deserve this derision from other fan bases that are not AS GOOD.

Honestly, in Cleveland I think we'd rather argue you didn't deserve that first World Series win than this NBA Championship. :lol:

All I'm saying is that Miami should just relish the role of being the most hated team instead of whining that no one likes them. Be the Bad Boy Pistons instead of trying to be the Aw Shucks Spurs.

Face the facts that what happened in Miami for this Heat team has never been seen before and is probably not going to be accepted outside of that city. Know what that changes? Nothing. You still get to wear big shiny rings in a few games.

"PhiNomina wrote:

I think a lot of the Yankees / Heat hate is how the teams were assembled. The Yankees have a very obvious advantage over other teams because of the structure of baseball. You can call it jealousy, but it takes some of the "sport" out of it when they are given a very obvious advantage simply due to the number of residents in their city.

With the Heat, I don't think the average fan wants to watch three of the best players team up. The fun part of sports is following your team, watching them come together and feeling like you are part of it. The Heat kind of look like mercenaries. Watching a team tank for three years so that it could clear cap space isn't exactly some fairy tale ending. Add in that most people see the Heat as a collection of individuals, not a team - and, sorry guys, a less than stellar fan base, and the average fan outside of Miami isn't going to appreciate them.

Again, whether true or not, the Heat go against what most fans like think is important - watching a team come together, strong teamwork and a homefield advantage. The "talents to South Beach" line makes it sound like having nice bars and good looking women trumps those other things.

See as a fan of a team who often looks like mercenaries (Yanks) I have to disagree, I think it is more of their front offices/GM getting the job done using whatever advantages there are to make their respective teams better.....for New York yeah it is the money, for Miami you know what it could very well be the area....but you cant blame people for that....

"Ronnie Bass wrote:

Great post man, I was thinking the same thing this morning how this Heat team was assembled like the Yankees in that they try to get the outside help now instead of building from the inside out.

And I'm not surprised that the Heat are going to win the title, when they got the big three together I said this would be a walk in the park for them and it's turn out to be just that, LeBron is getting his title he couldn't wait for, just wonder how satisfying it really will be for him because there has to be a part of him that is disappointed he didn't do it in Cleveland.

"Wait"? for what? for Antawn Jamison and Mo Williams to become good players?

How satisfying will it be? Just as satisfying as it was for the 8 billion championships the Celtics and Lakers have bought throughout the years.

If you build through the draft in the NBA, you are an idiot. Teams in the NBA get good, based on luck in the lottery, and smart cap management.

ONE team built through the draft and they still needed to get fortunate enough to win the Lotto and land Tim Duncan.

The Pistons? They made a concerted effort to land every disgruntled short contract guy on lopsided trades giving their partners cap relief to build that team. Is that a more satisfying way?

"Ronnie Bass wrote:

I think it's ridiclous to say they didn't deserve this, they won it fair and square, only an idiot would say they didn't deserve it.

it is said all day, every day that "Heat fans" don't deserve this. That "New York, Cleveland, insert city here" deserve to have a team like this.

What fan base gets attacked on three shows in one day by three different personalities? The Heat fan base does.

They can't attack the team, because it looks pretty good now..so hey..let's attack the fans.

"PhiNomina wrote:

Honestly, in Cleveland I think we'd rather argue you didn't deserve that first World Series win than this NBA Championship. :lol:

All I'm saying is that Miami should just relish the role of being the most hated team instead of whining that no one likes them. Be the Bad Boy Pistons instead of trying to be the Aw Shucks Spurs.

Face the facts that what happened in Miami for this Heat team has never been seen before and is probably not going to be accepted outside of that city. Know what that changes? Nothing. You still get to wear big shiny rings in a few games.

I enjoy the hate on the team..that is fine. I am talking about the current shift to attacking the city and the fan base.

"Section126 wrote:

"Wait"? for what? for Antawn Jamison and Mo Williams to become good players?

How satisfying will it be? Just as satisfying as it was for the 8 billion championships the Celtics and Lakers have bought throughout the years.

If you build through the draft in the NBA, you are an idiot. Teams in the NBA get good, based on luck in the lottery, and smart cap management.

ONE team built through the draft and they still needed to get fortunate enough to win the Lotto and land Tim Duncan.

The Pistons? They made a concerted effort to land every disgruntled short contract guy on lopsided trades giving their partners cap relief to build that team. Is that a more satisfying way?

You can get all huffy but there is some truth to what I am saying, while he didn't do nothing wrong signing in Miami you really think it doesn't bother him that he didn't get his first title in Cleveland? Honestly? That he had to form a three headed monster that no one in the NBA comes close to in talent, he got his title a certain way but it's not they way I'm sure he perferred.

"PhiNomina wrote:

As for the fans, we've argued this 100 times. Attendance is great, but half of those sold tickets don't show up or show up late. You can tell me that the upper levels get loud as hell - but half a stadium of good fans does not make some wonderful fan base. The whole Fan Up campaign doesn't happen if you have spectacular fans.

Stop it. Stop it now. It’s just silly. Please.

The lower bowl attendees are rich people and celebrities who got tickets either because they paid exorbitant prices (think 4-5 digits) or because they did something to earn a one-time ticket (Ludacris got 2 Finals tickets for his T-Mobile concert at the AAA during the ECF Game 5). Nor are the seats completely and totally vacant as popular belief would hold. Hell, it’s not even that the people who bought those tickets arrived late. It’s that they spent the first few minutes inside a lounge at the AAA, then went to their seats.

Attendance rate—not sales, but actual attendance rate—doesn’t lie. Even non-fans show up to watch this team.

Quit with the bandwagon crap already. You were being perfectly reasonable until you whipped that out.

"Section126 wrote:

it is said all day, every day that "Heat fans" don't deserve this. That "New York, Cleveland, insert city here" deserve to have a team like this.

What fan base gets attacked on three shows in one day by three different personalities? The Heat fan base does.

They can't attack the team, because it looks pretty good now..so hey..let's attack the fans.

I will never attack fans, it's the cheap way out and petty has all hell.

"finyank13 wrote:

It isnt anything more than people do not like other teams that are good, and their stars.....the comparsion does apply, they are both superstars who have, in the eyes of some (whether anybody here agrees with it or not) has done some arrogant things leading up to where they are now....it is literally that simple...

Look at Tom Brady, I hate that guy, not in the "I want him to die" sense, but from a sports standpoint...what has he ever done to warrant any sort of hate?? Besides maybe marry some broad who doesnt like American currency...and in the end she was right ha!

It is my opinion that the hate will grow, as Miami is constantly in the Finals for the next 3-6 years...people are just going to get sick of him, alla Kobe....

I disagree that the comparison applies b/c you're saying the championships didn't change the general opinion on A-Rod and therefore it won't change on Lebron. You may not like Brady or Kobe, but the opinions on both of those guys became predominantly positive. They will be seen as being among the greatest players and in retrospect things like a rape allegation will be largely forgotten or minimized. The same will happen for Lebron if he gets several championships.

I see the argument that people don't like how the team was built as one of those irrational excuses. Boston did the same thing and wasn't criticized for it. The Lakers brought in Kareem and Shaq to get their championships and weren't criticized for it. People want to pretend it's unprecedented, but really it's how most championships were won.

"Desides wrote:

Stop it. Stop it now. It’s just silly. Please.

The lower bowl attendees are rich people and celebrities who got tickets either because they paid exorbitant prices (think 4-5 digits) or because they did something to earn a one-time ticket (Ludacris got 2 Finals tickets for his T-Mobile concert at the AAA during the ECF Game 5). Nor are the seats completely and totally vacant as popular belief would hold. Hell, it’s not even that the people who bought those tickets arrived late. It’s that they spent the first few minutes inside a lounge at the AAA, then went to their seats.

Attendance rate—not sales, but actual attendance rate—doesn’t lie. Even non-fans show up to watch this team.

Quit with the bandwagon crap already. You were being perfectly reasonable until you whipped that out.

I never said bandwagon. Anywhere.

My entire point about the fans was about them being in their seats, making noise. The "homefield advantage". You just admitted in your post that most of the lower bowl is made up of celebrities and people who aren't chearing.

That doesn't make Miami less deserving or make the Heat suck. It means their fan base isn't as rabid and crazy as those in other towns.

I'm getting sick and tired of the constant s******g on the Miami Heat fan abse. Espescially because it mostly comes from New York/Boston clowns who apparently think bandwagoning was born in Miami.

I present Exhibit "A". ESPN.com's NBA attendance figures going back to 2001.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

The Heat outdrew the Cavs from 2001-2004. Cleveland is supposedly some rgeat sports town while Miami is garbage right? With true blue fans who always support their team? Well Cleveland was dead last in attendance in 2003. Then miraculously were 5th in 2004. Hmmm, were all those real fans in hibernation? On Mars?

And what happened in 2004? Some fella named LeBron James was on the team. And wouldn't you know it, those die hard true blue fans reemerged on planet Earth. No chance there were a ton of sad sack Clevelanders jumping on the bandwagon, not those fans.

Here's one I partuclarly love:

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2005

In 2005 the Heat was 4th in the NBA in attendance. The Heat outdrew the Knicks, Cavs and LAKERS. And oh yeah, this year, Boston was 24th in the elague in attendance, barely cracking 85% capacity. I suppose that had nothing to do with the fact the Celtics sucked. Those great sports fans must have replaced Clevelanders on Mars.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2006

Holy Moses! The Heat finishes 4th in attendance AGAIN. Once again outdrawing the KNICKS and LAKERS (this should seriosuly be impossible given the combined 40 million people in those two populaces) and Cavs. The celtics get 5% of their true fans back from Mars and finish 18th.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2007

Holy mother of Vishnu. 3 years in a row the Heat outdraws NY, LA and Boston. Boston slides back to 20th overall. The Cavs finally outdraw the Heat, but barely, they drew about 30,000 extra fans total

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2008

This has to be a typo. The Heat outdraws LA, NYK and Boston 4 years in a row. This has to be a David Stern plot.

2009 and 2010, ok, you got us. The Heat fell to middle of the pack, but still outdrew Philly and Indian (supposedly great fans) by wide margins

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

But ta dum, the Heat outdrew the Knicks Lakers and Celtics again.

In short, only Bulls fans, who ere #1 or #2 every year can claim to be better than the Heat with any credibility. So suck it NY/Boston/Cleveland

"Section126 wrote:

I enjoy the hate on the team..that is fine. I am talking about the current shift to attacking the city and the fan base.

Whoa - I'm calling BS. You know I've been attacking the fan base WAY before now. Give me some credit.

"Ronnie Bass wrote:

You can get all huffy but there is some truth to what I am saying, while he didn't do nothing wrong signing in Miami you really think it doesn't bother him that he didn't get his first title in Cleveland? Honestly? That he had to form a three headed monster that no one in the NBA comes close to in talent, he got his title a certain way but it's not they way I'm sure he perferred.

Do me a favor. Scan your psychology degree and post it on here, because your insight on what some professional athlete "thinks" and "feels" is impressive.

"PhiNomina wrote:

I never said bandwagon. Anywhere.

You didn’t have to. That’s the entire basis for everyone criticizing Miami fans in general. And I’ll admit that our hometown Heat hero, Dan Le Batard, has done a lot to stoke this by going on PTI and ESPN in general and calling us a bandwagon town. He means it one way, the country takes it another way.

You just admitted in your post that most of the lower bowl is made up of celebrities and people who aren't chearing.

Go watch some tape and tell me if they aren’t cheering.

That doesn't make Miami less deserving or make the Heat suck. It means their fan base isn't as rabid and crazy as those in other towns.

No, it means you’ve arrived at a distorted conclusion based on superficial and incorrect information which multiple posters in this thread are trying to correct you on.

"rafael wrote:

I disagree that the comparison applies b/c you're saying the championships didn't change the general opinion on A-Rod and therefore it won't change on Lebron. You may not like Brady or Kobe, but the opinions on both of those guys became predominantly positive. They will be seen as being among the greatest players and in retrospect things like a rape allegation will be largely forgotten or minimized. The same will happen for Lebron if he gets several championships.

IDK maybe it is because I am up here, but nobody likes Kobe...I dont care either way, I dont like one team enough to hate anybody in basketball.....It can go both ways......

"Section126 wrote:

it is said all day, every day that "Heat fans" don't deserve this. That "New York, Cleveland, insert city here" deserve to have a team like this.

What fan base gets attacked on three shows in one day by three different personalities? The Heat fan base does.

They can't attack the team, because it looks pretty good now..so hey..let's attack the fans.

I've honestly never seen that said. It wouldn't surprise me of some jaded fans said it, I just personally can't recall ever seeing it.

What else I know (well feel), is that before the playoffs I didn't want the Heat to win the title. I didn't want them to win the title mostly because I selfishly didn't want him to get a title right away (though I think I've been reasonable as an opposing fan, since I have said all along I uunderstand why Lebron went to Miami and I didn't blame him). But I watch him play, as I had the pleasure to watch him play in Cleveland for a few years, and he's good. I mean so good. And then I hear all the talk about not being able to compare him to Jordan because he doesn't have a title yet, and blah, blah, blah. Well I would actually like Lebron to be recognized (universally) for the great player that he is, and never be associated negatively with Marino (a great player who never won a title), and if that means winning a title this year, then good for them.

I won't be rooting for Miami to win (nor will I be rooting for Dallas), I'll just keep rooting for entertaining games, but if Miami does end up winning I'll certainly be cheering for Lebron.

"Desides wrote:

You didn’t have to. That’s the entire basis for everyone criticizing Miami fans in general. And I’ll admit that our hometown Heat hero, Dan Le Batard, has done a lot to stoke this by going on PTI and ESPN in general and calling us a bandwagon town. He means it one way, the country takes it another way.

Go watch some tape and tell me if they aren’t cheering.

No, it means you’ve arrived at a distorted conclusion based on superficial and incorrect information which multiple posters in this thread are trying to correct you on.

Just pointing out that you are projecting the arguments of others on me.

And I've watched plenty of Heat games to see the crowds and empty seats myself. I'm not just repeating a narrative. I've put a LOT of effort into hating the Heat this year.

"Stitches wrote:

I've honestly never seen that said. It wouldn't surprise me of some jaded fans said it, I just personally can't recall ever seeing it.

What else I know (well feel), is that before the playoffs I didn't want the Heat to win the title. I didn't want them to win the title mostly because I selfishly didn't want him to get a title right away. But I watch him play, as I had the pleasure to watch him play in Cleveland for a few years, and he's good. I mean so good. And then I hear all the talk about not being able to compare him to Jordan because he doesn't have a title yet, and blah, blah, blah. Well I would actually like Lebron to be recognized (universally) for the great player that he is, and never be associated negatively with Marino (a great player who never won a title), and if that means winning a title this year, then good for them.

I won't be rooting for Miami to win (nor will I be rooting for Dallas), I'll just keep rooting for entertaining games, but if Miami does end up winning I'll certainly be cheering for Lebron.

Listen to any national sports talk host. Chris "Mad Dog" Russo is the worst.

"schmolioot wrote:

Listen to any national sports talk host. Chris "Mad Dog" Russo is the worst.

Is that radio only? Because I don't listen to sports radio except when I go to the Houston area.

The only other sports talk I watch is PTI and Around the Horn, and I don't recall them saying Miami (fans or the town) is undeserving.

"Stitches wrote:

Is that radio only? Because I don't listen to sports radio except when I go to the Houston area.

The only other sports talk I watch is PTI and Around the Horn, and I don't recall them saying Miami (fans or the town) is undeserving.

Yes, it's radio.

And Michael Smith on around the horn just last week did a huge harangue against Miami fans.