the defensive success against the WC last year is over rated ... why - for 2 reasons:

our WC was extremely limited in viable options

a solid, disciplined defense against the run should have had success in stopping it

until you can add a legitimate vertical threat to the WC, it can be contained. that is the reason White is here ... now it remains to be seen whether or not he bring this dimension to fruition.

 

Of course we all realize that if Bellicheck had been the one to pick White, the Patriots would have been praised for the genious move in taking a "fad" or "gimmick" offense and turning it into something much more dangerous. ESPN would likely have held a parade in his honor, complete with floats, clowns and Matthew Broderick singing "Twist-n-Shout".

 

reppin' St. Louie!

 

One thing to point out is that teams that "stopped" the wildcat also stopped Miami's base offense.

There is no scheme in the NFL that will allow offensive players getting killed and still have success. If there was, then all of the NFL would be running it.

 

dang.. great point Dupree, I wish I had thought of that about a hundred debates ago.. I'll be using it on a Patsie fan within a couple days... shut him up today with reminding him he had to root for the jests to get in the playoffs.

 

Great point DD

The Ravens just shut down our base offense and than just stuffed 8 defenders on the line.

They had no fear of our Wr's or Ronnie's arm out of the Wildcat.

With White back there, you have to respect his arm and feet now.

 

You can guarantee analysts (cough*ESPN*cough) would have said that Bellicheat would've added some sort of newer, better dimension to the Wildcat.

IMO, any type of package that takes snaps away from Brady is ridiculous.

 

It would not surprise me to find out we took White early because they heard Billy B was high on him.

I think we liked White a lot, but feared losing him to the Pats before we picked again.

 

I agree with that XXX, i dont think we'll be seeing Belicek breaking out his version of the wildcat anytime soon.

With pennington, i think its a beautiful marriage, i think he capitolizes on the space and hesitation it creates on the previous play, no matter if hes executing in the proset, there is a hangover affect the wildcat has for the proset, the unrythmic patterns of the offenses going back and forth actually put him into a rhythm imo. hope that makes sense.

 

The beauty of the WC is we are ahead of the league with it and nobody else knows yet what wrinkles Henning is putting in to it until he calls them. We drafted Pat White because we want to stay ahead of the league and because Dan Henning & Co. believe that DC's are going to have nightmares trying to stop the WC when we have a pass AND run threat in it. And I imagine Pasqualoni was consulted on it as to his input on how hard it would be to shut down the WC with Pat White in there.

 

When we meet and if we meet Baltimore again in the Post Season, barring any setbacks, we will see if they have really stopped it 2 years in a row...

You have got to wonder, if now that Rex Ryan has left the Ravens after 10 years, if it will effect the performance of the Defense...

After all he was the DL Coach from 99-2004 and became Defensive Coordinator in 2005... Since he has been part of all the core players that been there for around 6 years...His departure will surely leave a whole on that Defense...

Why do I think this???

Defensively, Baltimore has been ranked in the TOP 6 in Yards Allowed a total of 9 times in the last 10 years...

and have been ranked in the TOP 6 in Points Allowed in 7 out of 10 years...

I know that they have a lot of great talent Defensively, but talent need to be organized and trained in the right direction, that is where coaching comes to play in any sport...
If you don't think that Ryan had a hand in the performance of this Baltimore D over the last 10 years, you will know in two years....

 

The Wildcat is here to stay!!

 

A part of it yes, running it no...With Pat white being incorporated in the cat, our receivers will have much different roles this year.

When Pat does pass the football out of this formation it will be quick hitches, slants or throwin deep,...All kinda one read and letting it go type stuff, our receivers will have to get into their routes quickly AND, be ready to keep a play alive while Pat is running around scrambling.

 

I don't buy the whole "the big bad Patriots can't do anything wrong, but because it's us..." argument. There are 2 major differences between the Dolphins and the Pats, first the Pats went into this draft with their starting roster pretty much set and they were looking to add quality depth for this season and the future. The Phins had holes to fill and uncertainties at several spots, we ignored a spot elsewhere on the team to draft a player who doesn't really have a position on this team if the WC isn't as effective as it was last year. Second, the Pats do a very good job of trading down and stockpiling draft picks every single year, because of that they can afford to overdraft players and take chances on players who may or may not have a specific position on the team, in season 2 of the rebuilding process the Dolphins don't IMO. I think the FO is rushing things a bit based on last years success, that's something that happened when Parcells was in NY and it led to a salary cap mess.

 

But Parcells isn't just picking the groceries, now he's paying for them too. I do not fear a cap issue my cautiously optimistic friend. I also think even you will see the worth of the Pat White pick before years end.

 

the path to the SuperBowl comes through Miami

 

considering who we play this year, that is prolly true

 

thats a bold post which i respect, i have thought the same thing myself once or twice, but once i break it down, i see things differently..

Look at how young our offense is besides Pennington, everybodies on the goodside of 30. On the defensive perimeters, we seem to be set for the future, merling, langford, smith, davis. We have our qb of the future in henne. I like how things are setting up.

I do think that they wanna make a run with pennington at the helm before they turn the team over to henne. I believe they see a team thats seriously bonded, wants to work hard, and wants to make a run, I think that could of been a factor in why they brought JT back.

I disagree with you about us ignoring a position of need when selecting Pat white...If were committed to this offense and its evolution, then the offense demands a new position {an x player that can run and pass from the formation, play decoy, and run and catch some passes} The offense requires that position to be very diverse and Pat fits the bill perfectly imo.. Our offfense needed juice, playmaking abilty and size. I think we accomplished that for our offense in the draft.

 

Salary cap is just one aspect of it, signing players who may otherwise be overlooked at this stage of rebuilding, or passing over quality players in order to bring in someone like White who is an extreme boom or bust player that depends on the success of the WC. There have been a few moves that left me scratching my head because they look like "win now" moves.

I hope so brother, but if it doesn't work out he's a man without a position.

If reports of our interest in Harvin are correct, then that theory goes right out the window because Harvin isn't much of a passer. I think the FO blinked and overdrafted their 2nd option, their plan B. The Pats interest is irrelevant, some like to point out that Belichick may have drafted him, but you don't draft according to what your rivals may or may not do.

 

Some of you will have to forgive me for beating the same drum about these ill-informed articles.....

The "wildcat" will not fail because the scheme will be stopped. Can someone name me another offense that has been run for over 100 years? Does that sound like it's been "stopped"?

Here is why "the wildcat" will falter in the NFL. It is the same reason why a balanced set, play action pass based offense continues to work. It has nothing to do with the single wing scheme. Obviously, the scheme still works!

THE RULES OF THE GAME HAVE BEEN CHANGED

Look in your NFL history books. Prior to the 1972 season scoring was relatively low. By today's standards, they were EXTREMELY low. This didn't occur because coaches were dumb. It didn't happen because offensive gurus become wiser. No, it happened because the NFL changed the rules.

Prior to 1972 teams (in all of football) based their game upon defense. Everything originated from a defensive mindset with the exception of the physically limited teams. A significant portion of that defense was BALL CONTROL. Four downs were offensive opportunities. Three yards and a cloud of dust was not simply a cliche. It was the game. Three times four equals twelve. It takes ten yards to make a first down. It took four downs to make a first down with "three yards and a cloud of dust" as your teams mindset. Largely, teams were willing to do it. Well what happened?

In all of football you can mug receivers all the way down the field. Wherever the receiver went, the DB would mug him. The DB would mug him until the ball was in the air. It's still the same rule in high school football. Which is one of the main reasons why evenly matched teams remain low scoring in high school. Some high school teams outsmart themselves by playing zone the entire game. The wrong receiver comes along and (BANG) he's tearing up the zone. In 1972 the NFL stopped the mugging. They limited the contact to five yards. If you go back and watch the epic battles of the Patriots/Colts and the Patriots/Rams superbowl, you will see that this is the rule that Bill Bellichek put to the test. He didn't have the talent to play pure zone versus these two teams. So the Patriots banged them. They banged them 10 and 15 yards down the field. The NFL allowed it. The Patriots won. That's how good the technique was and still is in lower levels of football.

Well what in the heck does this passing have to do with the "wildcat"? I'll tell ya.....

When the single wing was in it's heyday (heck all run based offenses for that matter) teams were based on the ground. They were based on the ground because largely the game was a running game. The single wing was an unbalanced set. It was all about getting more men to the point of attack. The offense will show you a strongside and if you overloaded to that side in response they would pull at least two back to the weakside. It was all about the run. Now when you based your running game on a unbalanced set you give up something. You give up the ability to drop straight back in a passer's pocket. The pocket has to move. Moving parts of an offense cause more difficulty. There in lies your reasoning for balanced sets. Structurally the unbalanced sets are not as conducive to a prolific passing game.

Fast forward to the 1980's and the million dollar quarterback. The NFL has already increased scoring by allowing receivers to run down the field freely. Hey! The fans like scoring. We like the fans. They pay the bills. The fans want scoring? We will give them scoring. That was already established in 1972. Now comes the million dollar arm. Our guy (Dan Marino) had alot to do with the next rule being established. It all started with roughing the quarterback. Then it went to hitting below the waist. Then it went to blow the whistle when he's in someone's grasp. Now it's don't touch him. Soon it will be don't look at him with ill intent.

The NFL is telling you to pass. When you pass, you give up an opportunity to gain three yards (and a cloud of dust). Now your punter is more valuable. He's not just some linebacker that can kick. No, he's a million dollar player himself. Because now you don't play three yards and a cloud of dust. You play a speed game. You play that game because your opponent plays that game. He plays that game because the rules told him to play that game. You can no longer risk four downs running the ball. You can't give him the ball at the 50 because now he has three opportunities to get the ball 12 yards for an almost certain 3 points.

So now you throw it and you punt it. Three yards and a cloud of dust is dead............and so is the single wing. That is until some coach has the balls to use four downs to run the ball in just about every situation past their 40 yard line. One usually only turns to that in desperation. Facing three straight losses in the midst of a game versus the prior years superbowl contender, Tony Sparano was just that desperate.

 

..........post continued:

Now two years ago Pat Kirwan on Sirius NFL Radio started floating the idea that someone would eventually challenge these smaller (in weight) defensive rosters. Defenses were getting too fast and too small. His theory was that the team is limited to 53 men with 45 on the active day roster. He looked specifically at the Indianapolis Colts. Their scheme was (and probably still is) the Tampa Cover 2. The key to that defense was that everyone was small and everyone was fast including the DE and Mike backer. He said "Run at them!"

In that 45 man roster you have at least 13 special teamers. A relative few of that 13 pulls double duty on the offensive and defensive side of the ball. So that leaves the team with 32 for offense and defense. You have at least five receivers on every team. You have two back up running backs. You have 3 to back up on the offensive line. The theory is that when you have players the size of Dwight Freeney on the edge and (I forget) at the Mike, you are set at what you are doing defensively. These players beg to be run at.

Now I will contend that if Single Wing football has a shelf life in the NFL, it is that GMs and Coaches are not thinking they have reinvented the wheel. They are thinking that half the teams are small and fast on defense to stop the passing game. We are weak on the pass but we know that we can run. If we get a few stops on defense with the assistance of some ill timed turnovers, we will win just by running at that small defense.

I think if we run much of "the wildcat" this year one of the most interesting things to watch in the week leading up to the game will be the activated roster.

 

what the hell are you trying to say?

 

Zod does meander a bit, but I think what he is trying to say is that the NFl has come full circle.. and the former running-league which went to pass-favoritism now has defenses that are more geared to pass and vlulnerable to a strong run offense, including the unbalanced-line wildcat.

Or at least, that PART of what I think he was saying. ;)

 

X2...:up:

 

Well that was at least part of it. The other factor being that this offense cannot sustain itself for a long term success. It is a chink in defensive armor just as you said.

In high school ball teams take risks every week that they can match up with spread, option, and single wing offenses. It makes for some interesting games if you know what you are watching. For the most part, fans do not know what they are watching. From little league to the NFL, fans await the pass to change the pace of the game. The NFL capitalized on these facts. As I mentioned, taking away the Jam was the single greatest rule change to advance the NFL passing game. But there are other factors that contribute to offenses staying relatively the same for over three decades now.

The option doesn't stand a chance in the NFL. It's a known fact that you need at least two quarterbacks to run option in High School. Some would argue that you need three.

Single Wing doesn't stand a chance at longevity in the NFL for much the same reason. It is a running offense. There is no quarterback in the single wing. The backs in the single wing are Tailback, Fullback, Blocking Back, and Wingback. Depending upon the play called, the tailback or the fullback would take the shotgun snap. The three main plays of the offense are the power off tackle to the strongside, a counter/reverse to the weakside, and a trap right of the guard to the strongside. The best passing play that the offense offers is a power pass that fakes the action of the power off tackle and throws to the TE or Wingback to the same side.

It is all a totally different concept than the modern day pro offense that has lived off the dive, ISO, and play action pass from that run game. The single wing has always been largely based in angle blocking. None of the aforementioned plays utilizes angle blocking. Very few plays are within the single wing that utilize drop back passing. Single wing, the T, Wing T.....It's all the same. For the most part, they are moving the pocket to pass.

So what I'm saying is there are numerous obstacles to single wing having success in the NFL. Obstacle number one is that the offense is about getting more men at the point of attack. We take that advantage away by keeping Chad Pennington on the field. He is only taking away a guy that we would love to run at (the cornerback). Pat White might fix this issue but when he is injured (and he will get injured if this IS our base offense) the offense and all it's repititions during camp and the preseason proves futile. It's the same issue that the wishbone option running game presents. Lose the ball handler and you lose the offense.

The single wing is a two tight end offense. When you spread the single wing, you lose the advantage that you sought to gain versus their personell. Their irrelevant players versus the run (cornerbacks) are now covering your irrelevant players (wide receivers) running routes. Essentially the game becomes 9 on 9.

So then you create obstacle number two in that we now lose the advantage that NFL rule changes have given every team. We have a runner at quarterback which is actually a tailback. We are moving the pocket. More often than not the passer will actually end up out of the pocket risking himself to season or career ending injury.

So what I am saying is what every stinkin' writer who pens an article about this offense is not saying. With every repitition placed together for the single wing, it doesn't jive with the rules have told you to do. The rules have told you to pass. The rules have told you to keep the passer in the pocket. The offensive scheme is not a gimmick. To the contrary, the NFL rules are the gimmick.

 

wow man...I respect your conviction and brain, i think i agree with it, iam not sure, but i respect it..

Question....do you think our version of the wildcat is gonna work with ronnie and pat playing a 2 man game with our oline.?

 

No but let me explain.

There are subtle nuances to just about every offense in football. The writer of the article scoffs at the notion of "run and shoot" football. What he doesn't realize is that "run and shoot" remains in the NFL today. To me, the main key to "run and shoot" football is that it is the first offense that brought automatic adjustments at the line of scrimmage. If the defense did (A) the offense would do (B). For instance if the play call was pass, it was the first offense that would change a route based upon how the secondary would play. It was a smart offense brought on by insufficient size to compete. So when you see an NFL quarterback throw an errant pass to what appears to be a "hitch" and the receiver remains on the "go" - THAT'S RUN AND SHOOT FOOTBALL. Because that is exactly where it originated. I was just watching the Cowboys/Eagles on NFL network. The exact circumstance that I just described happened between Romo and Roy Williams. Troy Aikman (announcing) says something to the effect of "they were not on the same page". Yeah! They were not on the same page because Roy Williams ignored the blitz from his side of the field. He ran a stop and go. He was suppose to be looking for a blitz. When he saw the blitz from his side, he AUTOMATICALLY turns the "stop and go" into a "hitch". He didn't. Interception was the result. Most now consider this circumstance as a staple of the modern day pro offense. It is RUN AND SHOOT. Players do not know where it originated. That isn't their job. And obviously from the play I just described, even some of the best players do not know the duty assigned.

For this reason I now take everything I hear out of NFL analysts and writers with a grain of salt. Aikman was a player. Either he doesn't know the game or he hasn't figured out a way to tell you what happened in the short amount of time he's alloted per play. Some of the analysts do not even know the game. They only know their position. That is unless he has taken the time and effort to study the history of the game.

I went on a tangent again. I apologize. Back to the subject - the subtle nuances and our lack of success with single wing.

As I described earlier, single wing is four down football. You can review gameday threads at this very site where fans hated seeing "the wildcat". Me, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it because I was interested in how they were blocking it. They didn't pull much and alot of that was due to the key loss of a guard on the offensive line. But the offense had it's haters. Now just imagine with me. You are Tony Sparano. You are the classic coach in every sense of the word. Your mentor is a classic coach. Neither of you were known for much risk prior to 2008. Now all of sudden you are risk takers. I say no they are not. I say that Tony Sparano was just a man trying to win a game no matter the cost. It didn't change who he was and to commit to this offense - he has to change. He ain't changing. He's dabbling in this offense. You don't dabble in option. You don't dabble in single wing. It just doesn't work. It's either what you do or it's not.

With that said, I like single wing football. I like option football. I think with the right defense, both offenses would still work in any level of football. Option has never been stopped. It's still run today. But in big time college football, Quarterbacks who could run option were stopped. They stopped playing the game or they stopped attending option colleges. Quarterbacks wanted to throw. Running backs wanted to receive. Kids didn't like the ground and pound nature of the offense. When you start losing talent due to your scheme, it's time to change. Colleges changed. They usually changed their head coach. Both offenses and the conviction that led them disappeared.

So why will it not work? Simple. It's an offense. You do not practice an offensive scheme 10% of your practice time. You practice a diversion 10% of your practice time. Diversions usually do not work in the pro game. I would suspect that one of the major reasons why is that you actually made your opponents practice FUN in the week leading to your game. Instead of practicing every day against the same ol' pro offense, they got to kill some practice squad players trying to run single wing.

 

Interesting stuff Zod...ive changed my mind, i disagree with you, lol..
The wildcat is not our scheme or philosophy, They are plays we are implementing in our overall offense, and just like any other play, it will be practiced accordingly, its what makes this hybrid truly innovative,what were doing is simple football, man on man brother, throw in so different formation stuff, add a pat white to the mix and you have a multidimensional offense with interchangable parts.

Just watch the play where ricky takes it to the house untouched at home against seattle, without getting to analytical, thats about as basic a play as a simple counter. Now add a passing and running threat out of that formation, and there you have something not from out of the past, but something we are creating for the future.

Zod, you have a multidimensional brain just like our offense, lol, except our offense is simple in its origin, and yours is complex. enjoyed your POV.

 

(I'm back from Mexico :flag: and fully recovered from a week long drunken stupor)

What do you consider a success? Give me a breakdown of "success using the wildcat".

 

coaching, innovation & creativity to gain the edge with the team's skills & talent every game
got to coach a team up & game plan with the same intensity you train & play on the field
our coaching cadre give the Dolphins a real heads up in this game

 

Ive reread your thoughts and here is why i think this offense will work.

Because the oline that we have is traditional, its built for a smashmouth style. The rest is formation confusion to create some hesitancy amongst these nfl defenders {while not changing the objective of the oline}, while highly skilled players execute their roles {pat and ronnie}, making fast decisions based on what kind of push that oline can give them, and use their talent to take advantage of the space, seams and confusion that is created.

I think sucess will be the wildcat turning into more of a smashcat power running formation that simultaneously threatens the defense's perimeters, and KEEPS IT HONEST as a whole, so they cannot constrict our running game.

 

I couldn't disagree with this more. This FO turned a 1-15 team into an 11-5 team and you still question their decisions? Your thoughs on Pat White are very reminiscent on your thoughts of the Chad Pennington signing. What would you have them do instead of taking players that they think can make an immediate impact? I'm thankful that we have a FO who has a win now mentality. I've never understood the whole, "Let's take it slow this year so we don't get too far ahead of ourselves" mentality. This whole philosophy that it takes x amount of years to re-build a team and trying to win before that is a fools game. We made the playoffs last year and obviously the FO and this entire organization is looking to improve on that this year. Why would they shoot for anything less? Obviously the FO thinks Pat White can add something dynamic to our offense. That remains to be seen, but they have a pretty good track record and I trust them. I guess I can understand disagreeing with the pick, but not the mentality of this FO.

 

Agreed

 

Man..no one knew at the time what the Tuna was talking about (in one of his first press conferences) right after he was hired, but he said he was going to build this team by bucking the trend of the way teams in the NFL were drafting.

I wish someone could locate that presser.

 

http://www.miamidolphins.com/newsite/news/top_story.asp?contentID=5613

I scanned it but did not see the part I thought you were looking for.. it could be there, I just may have missed it.. :hi5:

 

Thanks Marty. That wasn't it, but I could smell it coming. Must have been in a later interview.

 

I looked through the "pressers" and there were no more by Bill.. sawee :cry: