Yes, I am serious, thats what players play for, or are they all just lying when they say that? Rings mean nothing? No of course not. So the thing players covet means nothing. So Jordan's 6 mean nothing, Bill Russell's 11 mean nothing? No he didn't, and as you can see I've corrected that. So then why is LeBron trying to get one so bad by moving down South? Didn't he say thats what he wanted? But now it means nothing. Kobe's more clutch because he brings home the bacon; rings. Same reason Brady's more clutch than Peyton Manning, he's won more rings. Rings matter. I could care less how many regular season games who's won over who, give me rings. There are tons of guys who won games but have no rings, and they're not considered as great as the ones who do.
Your changing the entire argument. When I said rings mean nothing, I meant they mean nothing in terms of judging a players clutch ability. Since you have no argument as to Lebron vs Kobe in the clutch, you changed the conversation to rings.
No actually, re read it. Kobe is more clutch, he has more rings mate, that what i said. I never said who'd won more games or anything else. That was my crux from the start. I mentioned Kobe and clutch in relation to rings. Don't confuse what was said with what you think was said. My argument hasn't changed, I've always said that Kobe's more clutch because he has rings, hence me saying "the guy with no rings is more clutch than the guy who has 5" bweing sarcastic. So what have I changed? And yes, I've suggested that you saying that rings don't matter is out there; because it is. But that hasn't changed my position from the start; the Kobe is more clutch than LBJ due to rings. I've even said Wade is too - want to chance a guess as to why? Wade has how many rings more than LBJ? I never said who'd won more games..........I've only used rings as the parameters of my conversation. Or can you prove I've said otherwise? You only said "Rings mean nothing" if thats not what you meant then who else is to know without more details? I can only go by what you actually type. If you say that rings don't relate to being clutch, and I do, then in reality there is no headway. We'll be at this forever. I just se guys that can deliver the goods - championships - as being clutch. If you see otherwise then so be it. And don't get me wrong, I don't hate on LeBron, I'd have more reason to hate on Kobe as he beat my team to win one of his titles, but the reality is the guy wins championships.
Not looking good right now for the Heat. If they lose, lots of pressure on them for them at home, but at least they're home.
I read what you wrote perfectly clear. You use rings as a measure for clutch, and I do not. You asked me to prove facts, and I did. I honestly don't know how you can use rings to prove someone is clutch. Last finals, Kobe was horrible. Yet he won, so he's clutch? Also, my link proved your wrong about Lebron having no killer instinct.
Yes, we all know this one game is a great argument as to why he's not clutch! Let's ignore the 5 rebounds and 5 assists. Let's just look at the 0 points he scored.
Guess you missed the link I posted up? Or the ECF game 5 against Detroit? Or the game winner against Orlando?
after further review, I'm fairly certain the conversation posted here previously between Con and this Anonymous fella was an act to make Heat fans feel better given tonight's loss. As for game 5... great googily moogily... TBH, didn't expect Dallas to win this game. And I still expect the Heat to somehow pull it out. But Lebron, AKA, The Facilitator, needs to start dominating offensively these last two games or it's not going to happen. Jason Terry coming in fresh midway thru the 4th quarter is an awesome usage plan by Rick Carlisle. The Mavs struggled in the 4th qtr pretty much until Terry came in. Sundays game is going to be epic! Again, as a neutral fan, this final series has been one of the best in recent memory for me.
If you had, then half of this discussion wouldn't have occurred. Yes Kobe was and is clutch. Want to know why? Kobe is what 5 for 5 in finals appearances? No losses. LBJ is staring at 0 for 2 at the moment. You only get so many chances to get there, and if you lose them, then sorry, but its hard to call you clutch, unless maybe you include a caveat - such as in the regular season. Granted the Heat can win two games in a row, but he's staring at it. Lots of guys have won games in the regular season, but the post season counts for much more, you know it, and any basketball fan knows it. LeBron is a good player, but unless he wins a championship, thats likely what he'll be - good, not great. That or one of the very good players that never won one. You can cut it any way you'd like, LBJ for being a 'closer' according to you, has 12 points in 5 games in the 4th quarter. Thats not closing. He's making other plays yeah, but thats not closing. A point guard can make te same plays, and he wouldn't be called clutch for making an assist, even though it was a good play. He attempted 3 shots in the 4th quarter. Thats not going to get it done at this level. Has he simply given up? No, not at all. But I don't think you can say 12 points in 5 games is indicative of a closer, if so, then guys like Mario Chalmers are closers too, so's Eddie House - who's got his ring and sunk shots to help win a finals game. Look at this way, who's more clutch the Buffalo Bills for getting to 4 straight SB's and losing, or the teams that beat them in those SB's? The winners, the losers are remembered for their futility, nothing more. Clutch is winning championships, if it weren't Dominiqie Wilkins and Karl Malone would be right up there with guys like MJ etc. The thing is, they're not, and there's a very simple reason why. The players themselves know it, thats why they 'chase' rings. Rings count. LBJ or whoever for that matter could close out 82 regular season games and no one would care if he doesn't do it when it counts. LeBron went South to chase rings, and right now he's looking at 0 for 2 in the Finals. Not good. There's thousands of guys in various sports who have been great during the regular season, but can't get it done in the playoffs. If LBJ is one of those guys, then he is. He needs to win a championship to be an all time great, and to be considered clutch and a closer, otherwise he'll just be a really good player. I don't know how anyone can discount rings, unless its the only way to remove the glaring the difference between the two players mentioned. Kobe has the hardware, LBJ doesn't. Doesn't matter what you do in the regular season really that only allows you the right to play for what really counts - championships. Who's remembered more, the guy who leads the league in scoring, rebounding game winning shots, or the guy who wins the ring? Everyone knows that answer. I have nothing against LeBron, but he isn't a closer, not yet, he may grow into that as many players do, but he ain't there. he doesn't have to score 20 points in the 4th, but I think most would agree that getting more than 4 points would be a legit request before anyone can call him a closer. How many games did LBJ close out in his other Finals appearance? Weren't they swept or something? I asking as I can't remember off the top of my head. I don't have to ask that about Dwayne Wade. Wade already answered those questions. LBJ's a good player, yeah absolutely, but until he wins what really counts, its hard to call him clutch. Same as Karl Malone and Gary Payton.
What you’re really saying here is “He’s not Michael Jordan.” And that’s correct, he isn’t Michael Jordan. He’s Magic Johnson.
Again, you keep referring to rings as a measurement of being clutch. I do not believe that having X amount of rings makes you more clutch. Kobe was horrible in the last finals. Yet he won. How in the hell does that make him clutch? LJ absolutely took over in the 4th quarter against Chicago and Boston. Why does that not count? He also did it against Detroit in the ECF to take them to the finals. Why does that not count? I don't see how rings make you clutch. Winning rings makes you a winner, not a clutch performer. A clutch performer is a player who performs well down the stretch of close games to help you win. Last finals, the Lakers won despite Kobe, yet he's clutch. Sorry, I don't get that logic. Again, I'm not saying rings don't matter. They do. However, when you compare two players and you compare their clutch performances, they do not. Bottom line, Lebron never had a team until this season as talented as Kobe's team. Without Shaq, Kobe has no rings. We wouldn't be having this argument. Lebron is a closer. Yes, he got swept. He was also 21 years old on a team that shouldn't have been in the Finals. That team was pathetic. However, he carried them there. He went off for 25 straight points, yet your saying he isn't a closer. What does he have to do? Lebron is absolutely clutch. He's a closer. He's proved it time and time again. Winning a ring doesn't have to prove that. He proved it himself.
I don't mean Kobe is overrated in the sense that he's not good. He's just not the hero everyone makes him out to be.
Not to mention that Magic starts the game and finishes it as a point guard. I think the more appropriate analogy that Scottie Pippen should have made is that LeGone is closer to Scottie himself than he is MJ.
LeBron is hard to figure out in terms of "clutch". I've seen him be as clutch as any player ever. Go back and watch the Pistons game when he played 136 minutes and scored the last 25 points for the Cavs against their biggest rival at the time. That was clutch. Watch his series against the Magic two years ago when he got NO help and was putting up numbers like he was in Easy Mode. Or this year against Chicago where he single handedly took Rose out of the game AND won it on the other end. But then there are series like Boston last year and Dallas this year, where he just appears out of it. It isn't like Kobe where he is shooting and they aren't falling - he just stops shooting (or stops driving). He is just so different than any other player. Even last night - he puts up a triple-double but had very little impact on the game. In the beginning of the fourth he was dishing our assists and taking over the game that way, but then it dried up as it became crunch time and he was completely passive. He caught so many passes where his defender was trying to recover and Bron just refused to drive. It is less about being "clutch" and more about keeping motivated. He can be clutch, he just has to try. And for some reason, that is more of a challenge to him than any player I've ever seen before.
He played well offensively in the 4th. He was getting everyone open looks for a while. Defense is what lost this game. Neither team deserved to win. Giving up 100 points in a Finals game is not accetable.
I thought he played FANTASTIC at the beginning of the fourth - but disappeared at the end. It is kind of like our gripe with Henne - he too often goes for the "smart" play, when the aggressive play is what is needed. He passed the ball away on plays he would normally drive (and easily score). It wasn't that he was playing poorly - he just wasn't playing great. That triple double is great, but he was in for 46 minutes - I saw a stat where the average NBA player scores 19 pts over 46 minutes - to put it in perspective.
As was proved in the Henne thread "clutch" is a myth. Players play to their level regardless of the situation. And the argument that "clutch" = "rings" is also faulty. Kobe had much better teams and won more championships.
Every team who's ever won anything had a better team, so that doesn't actually say anything - its a non sequitar. Isn't it. How can I argue that the winner didn't in fact have the better team - really? My own definition of clutch is tied in with titles. Thats just the way I equate it. Does it really matter how many regular season games or playoff games you won if in fact you can't win a title? That will always knock a player down on the ladder. It just does. Terry Bradshaw is a great example of clutch to me. That guy wasn't a great player during the regular season, he had some bad spells. But when he got the chance in the big game, he made it happen - on the biggest stage. Who cares if he couldn't spell CAT if you spotted him the C and the A. To me he was clutch. Maybe thats just me. I can live with that.
No, Magic has rings. Magic helped save the NBA when it was waning. LBJ has done nothing like that, and until he does, he's not going to be compared to Magic. Nice try, but the guy actually has to do something first, other than play for the Heat of course. Magic also played center during the finals and won the damn game in the place of Kareem. James has done nothing close to that. I'm not trying to **** on the guy, I'm just saying he doesn't seem to have the nature to step on and over someone to get the job done. I'm not harping on him for last night, although I think most would agree getting more than 3 points from him in the 4th would be better. Its not like he didn't help in any way. But, I think to compare him to all of these greats the guy needs to have at least one title. If he doesn't have it, then the reality is he's a step below and always will be; just the same as any other player with great skill but without a title. In the comparison of Dirk to Bird I'd likely have to go with Charles Barkley on this one. Although him winning a title would certainly make the conversation much more legitimate. James is a good player, don't get me wrong, but there's many of those around the NBA. I have no problem with him getting 6,7,8,9,10 rings. And, I'd rather have the team that knocked my Celtics out win a title than lose. At least I can say we lost to the champs, a small victory, but hey I'll take it. James now really does have the chance in the next two games, should they occur. If he can come out and win and help lead the Heat to the title, then he's earned that. I guess thats my point, he hasn't earned it yet. He may well do it, but he hasn't yet.
i simply dont buy the defense argument. if teams space correctly, move the ball efficiently and don't wait until the final seconds of the shot clock to shoot, 100 points is easy. playing isolation basketball and draining the clock can be confused with defense.
How often is 100 points scored in a Finals game??? ETA: Hell, the LA Lakers, which run an offense specifically designed around spacing and ball movement, only scored 100 points in the Finals once last year.
I just saw a stat that in the 4th qtr of these finals, with the score within 5 pts, LeBron is 0-7 with 2 pts and 2 assists. And his defense on Terry has not been good. Terry is getting around him without much trouble - and he isn't nearly as quick or talented as Rose. LeBron just has not played well the last two games. I'm actually surprised people are pushing back on the idea that LeBron has been poor in the 4th qtr the last few games. That being said - I expect him to catch his breath with the extra days off, for Spo to find some extra minutes to rest him on the bench and for Bron's jumpshot to come out on point this Sunday.
Like I said earlier, if the Heat come back and win the series, James will have to play a big part, and if he does then he'll certainly be clutch won't he? I mean the table is set for him to be clutch.
The chances of James scoring 20+ points against the Mavs are not very high. Thats just the reality of the matchup. The Mavs were 7th in the NBA defending SFs, and 28th defending SGs. The offense will be run to get Wade the ball in favorable situations, not LeBron.
