1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Great Older Article on Fitzpatrick

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by KeyFin, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

    71,717
    42,331
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    You are missing the point.

    A few of us said Thill needed 3 things to be Top 10. As soon as he got those 3 things, he was Top 10.
     
  2. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    20,614
    18,588
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    I would argue that the top 25 QBs in this league would be top 10 QBs under the scenario you have detailed. What Miami should strive for is a QB that can be in the top 10 with 2 of those factors or even one.
     
  3. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    473
    434
    63
    Oct 1, 2018
    What is the meaning of top 10?

    I know what it’s defined as, but what is the significance of it?
     
  4. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    20,614
    18,588
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    I think it played in to his psyche. He ran more and was more decisive in the pocket when his job was on the line. In 2014 he went from almost being benched to nearly leading them to the playoffs, only to lose the last two games of the season with atrocious stats against divisional opponents.
     
  5. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    473
    434
    63
    Oct 1, 2018
    ...or who can be in the top four or five when those variables are present, if indeed they are significant.
     
    Bumrush likes this.
  6. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    6,912
    7,654
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    The significance of it is that Tannehill wasn't statistically in the top 10 even during his best 8 game stretches.
     
    djphinfan and The Guy like this.
  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

    71,717
    42,331
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    You could argue it, sure. I don't think there's basis in it though. We never said he needed anything crazy. Being allowed to audible and and just commit to the running game are not things most QBs do without.
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

    71,717
    42,331
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    The way it is commonly attributed....qb rating.
     
  9. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    20,614
    18,588
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    What if Tannehill couldn't handle the nuances of the huddle and failed when he was given audible power? Why did three consecutive coaching staffs simplify the offense because of him?

    Did they limit it because they wanted to sabatoge him and themselves on purpose or because they evaluated him a certain way?

    Also you fail to mention an ideal OL which seemingly played much better with Cutler and Brock Osweiller than with Ryan.
     
  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

    71,717
    42,331
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    I seriously don't know why you keep bringing up all this stuff. Philbin/Lazor/Sherman didn't think he could handle it. They were obviously wrong.

    How does that disprove or argue anything I've said?
     
  11. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    20,614
    18,588
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Were they wrong when he had his hot streak in 2014? Lazer went from offensive genius to scrub one short year later.

    Tannehill was a career killer.

    On that note I apologize for getting sucked in to this again. I've said what I've had to say for many years and you've said what you've had to say. Opinions are not going to change. I'm out of this thread.

    I pray we don't have this discussion with the next QB. I wanted Tannehill to succeed as badly as you did. It just didn't work out that way for anyone.

    Now let's focus on the future. I'm excited for the season and can envision 2008 all over again.
     
  12. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    20,614
    18,588
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    You know one thing that has changed for me over the years is that I don't care about players as much as I care about results. That's why I have no love lost for guys like Suh or Tannehill. Some think players shouldn't be judged based on team results. I don't care for that line of thinking. The only thing I care about after 36 years of fandom is watching a team that can be a consistent playoff contender.. I'm hungry to see Miami successful again. Not mired in debating a long list of players that the rest of the league views as irrelevant while we struggled to finish 7-9 each year
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019 at 11:04 PM
  13. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    5,613
    7,361
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    Matt Moore- or do you consider his 99.996 QBR over his last three seasons below average too?
     
  14. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    20,614
    18,588
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    After I wrote the post I thought to myself I should have included Moore. I got too lazy to change the post..
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  15. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    5,613
    7,361
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I typically defend Tannehill here but if somebody slights Matt Moore? Oh heck no, LOL. I swear he's one of my favorite Miami QB's ever! =)
     
    Surfs Up 99 and Bumrush like this.
  16. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    20,614
    18,588
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Love Moore. Love his heart and his mentality.

    He's my second favorite backup QB in Miami right behind Don Strock.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  17. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    6,912
    7,654
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    lol.. no KeyFin that's calculated totally wrong. Matt Moore had precisely 1 passing attempt in 2015 so you can't just take that 118.7 rating in 2015 and treat it the same way as his ratings with 87 attempts in 2016 and 127 attempts in 2017. That's the epitome of sample size problems: passer rating after 1 passing attempt lol.
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoorMa01.htm

    You can either calculate passer rating using the formula by plugging in the total completions, attempts, yards, TD's and INT's, or you can just weight the 3 ratings for each year by passing attempts and calculate a weighted average. Either way you get the same result: 88, which is basically average for those 3 years.

    So Bumrush is right, Pennington was the last really good QB we had even if it was for only a year. He was ranked #2 in passer rating in 2008! Marino's the last QB we had that got that high.
     
    Surfs Up 99 and Pauly like this.
  18. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    20,614
    18,588
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    His rating may not have been above average but his playmaking abilities were.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  19. Hooligan

    Hooligan Member

    40
    52
    18
    Dec 31, 2018
    Interesting thread about Fitzpatrick.
     
    Sceeto and cbrad like this.
  20. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,020
    2,844
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    Rhetorical question: If a player’s “playmaking ability” is above average, wouldn’t that be reflected in his statistical output?
    Playmaking ability is generally regarded to mean able to make big plays that most other players cannot. If Matt Moore had great playmaking ability it should show up in the 5 components of the passer rating formula (completions, yards, TDS, INTs and attempts). Specifically yards and TDs should be higher than average if his playmaking ability is above average.

    This is where the “eyeball” test fails. Some QBs look great on film, but their actual production falls short of what their film suggests. I would definitely put Matt Moore in that group. Also Andrew Luck is another one whose statistical output has been less than the hype from the highlight reel.
     
  21. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

    6,912
    7,654
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Assuming the claims about "playmaking ability" are accurate for a QB, it HAS to be because something else is well below average, pulling overall production down. For Moore and Fitz (hey Hooligan! I mentioned him lol) one such stat is INT% where both are WAY below average. For Luck I think that the pre-draft hype was so great (greatest draft hype since Elway I remember hearing over and over again) that it just dies real hard and people keep seeking confirmation of that hype by selectively looking at games where he does play great.

    Also.. it's worth pointing out that there's no consistent "eyeball" test for many of these QB's because people disagree so much. For example, I think there are two vastly different camps on Moore: those who think he's way better than Tannehill and those who think he's way worse (and a few like me who say the production is similar and that's all that counts lol). If memory serves correctly, I actually think majority sentiment on this board for Moore the last few seasons was that he "looked" less talented than Tannehill. At least that's the way I remember it.
     
    The Guy and Pauly like this.
  22. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    5,613
    7,361
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    What? I added his three years and divided by 3! That can't possibly be wrong! =) Just like the argument we had in 2016 when Moore had the #1 QBR in the league entering week 17...it's not like I was making up the stats or anything. Is it Moore's fault he only started two games at that point? Or when he only threw one pass in 2015...which just happened to be a bomb for a TD?

    LOL, I blame your biased formula...my math here is flawless!
     
  23. The Guy

    The Guy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    473
    434
    63
    Oct 1, 2018
    Hypothetically, you could actually say that about Moore (or any player) even if it isn’t reflected in traditional statistics. Moore could have a high frequency of plays that increased win probability substantially, thus the perception of his playmaking ability.

    Given that his traditional statistics are nothing special, I suspect that if the above is true, he also had a high frequency of plays that decreased win probability substantially, though those may be harder to remember.
     
  24. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Active Member

    96
    104
    33
    Nov 8, 2017
    Serious question (having never played the game) - could RT not have said "screw it" when he got to the line and saw that the defense was wrong for the play & audibled? He might have yanked by the coach for a play or two but if it was the best thing for the offense and it kept the drive going, surely the backlash on the coach would have been too great? I can't believe that none of the greats have just blindly followed the coach's ever commend & not audibled if seen fit against the wishes of the playcaller
     
  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    13,149
    7,183
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Why is it I get criticized for arguing something that someone else brought up??
     
  26. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    13,149
    7,183
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    They didn't. That was a narrative ON HERE. Coaches pretty much seemed to indicate that Tannehill knew the offense, but other players weren't doing their job.
     
  27. Losferwords

    Losferwords New Member

    27
    20
    3
    Sep 1, 2012

    Why though? So we can be an eternal treadmill team? This strategy has gotten us nowhere... we need Rosen to start 16 regardless of outcome... it’s a win win.
     
  28. Losferwords

    Losferwords New Member

    27
    20
    3
    Sep 1, 2012

    Well if it isn’t Thill’s number 2 fan after “young Tom Brady with Legs” aka Hoops on Finheaven.

    Haha
     
  29. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    20,614
    18,588
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    So you're saying the narrative that Tannehill couldn't audible was false?
     
  30. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    13,149
    7,183
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I'm saying that if you're still arguing that Tannehill couldn't audible because he was too stupid to do it, you're arguing against multiple coaches who all said that Tannehill had a good grasp of the offense, but that he didn't have time to audible and get all the other players into the right positions.
     
  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    13,149
    7,183
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I'm not a Tannehill fan. I'm a fan of accurate discussions, which many are unable to have in regards to the QB position.
     
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    94,377
    46,668
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Fin Your were debating that he isn’t below average, I showed you that all outlets, stats, companies that watch film, QBR, Pff, all matches up with what my eyes and exp tell me..

    Up to you to prove differently, saying that if he had these perfect elements around them he would be top 10 is bogus, he played 6 years, you should use the film and the numbers..
     
  33. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    20,614
    18,588
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Here is an accurate fact. Ryan Tannehill's career record in Miami was 42-46. A winning percentage of .477.

    Andy Dalton's winning percentage is 55 percent. Matt Shaub had nearly the exact same amount of starts as Ryan Tannehill and has a winning percentage of 51 percent. Tyrod Taylor has a winning percentage of 51 percent.


    This is the company Ryan keeps. Why are we debating his merits again? He's overseen a losing era of Dolphins football and is a meddling starter a majority of the time.

    Move on from Ryan. You will feel a lot better about yourself once you stop defending a 42-46 QB.
     
    djphinfan likes this.
  34. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    20,614
    18,588
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    I never said Tannehill was stupid. To the contrary he's a likeable and smart guy that was s premed major.

    He may be the smartest guy on the planet but that doesn't preclude him from being able to read a defense quickly or make a quick decision at the line. Football is a game of inches and microseconds, not everyone has the reaction time needed. I don't believe Ryan played at the speed necessary to be an effective QB.
     
    djphinfan likes this.
  35. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    13,149
    7,183
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Again. You're arguing a strawman. It's not about Tannehill. YOU guys are still making it about Tannehill.

    And you do that by again bringing up team stats and attributing them to Tannehill. This has been the crux of the argument for years. It's not about the name of the player, it's the reasoning being used.
     
  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    13,149
    7,183
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    If you're arguing that Tannehill couldn't audible because he didn't grasp the playbook, or he made bad decisions, then you're wrong. Coaches said the exact opposite.
     
  37. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    20,614
    18,588
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Sorry but ask anyone who watches professional sports and they'll agree that the QB position is the most important position. It's a team sport that a great QB can elevate. A poor QB or a potentially good QB that doesn't elevate his game puts Miami in purgatory, no different than the Jay Fiedler and Chad Henne era. Ryan will be judged the same. Not a difference maker
     
  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

    71,717
    42,331
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    He isn’t. I did prove it. I said the reason his numbers are below average is because crap O-Line, not allowed to audible and no commitment to run game. As soon as those things changed he was a little above average. It happened. It was proven.
     
  39. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    13,149
    7,183
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    And? I don't see what your point is. Just because many people wrongly attribute wins to the QB doesn't make them right. This idea that QBs can just elevate crap teams and turn them into contenders isn't accurate. MAYBE if you have an elite QB. But if that what you want, then stop arguing all these ridiculous things, and just say, "I will complain about the QB position until we have an elite QB."
     
  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    94,377
    46,668
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    You all are missing the point, IT IS about the guy (brains and leadership) and his skill set... absolutely, and we have plenty of reps and situations and numbers to analyze it as such..

    The ultimate conclusion, he is now a 30 year old backup..exactly where I thought he would be this year, thank goodness for us he is gone..
     
    Bumrush likes this.

Share This Page