Would be curious to hear what the 49ers speech sounded like.

The irony here is that the difference in the game was Pierre Thomas - who has a history of concussion issues - getting knocked out on a helmet-to-helmet hit that resulted in a fumble. Ironic indeed.

 

Think of how much bigger this would be if the Saints had gone on to win another superbowl.

 

That was disgusting. Thanks for the link, read the transcripts but never heard it.

 

The problem is there are so many that think this mentality is OK. That's why Goodell has to send a strong message, which I believe he sent by giving the indefinite ban to Gregg Williams and then knocking Sean Payton out for a whole year. But the other shoe has to drop, and I think some of the players involved will be hit just as hard.

 

Not defending Williams, but how regular do you think a speech like this happens in the locker room? Take out the bounty information we already know, and the advice was fairly sound despite its brutality.


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There's a lot of folks shocked that Williams would say these things knowing that filmmaker was in the room. I'm not surprised at all. NFL coaching circles and front offices are bastion to some of the most inflated egos in human existence. Many of them really do feel like they're bullet proof and can do whatever they want, if it's for the sake of winning.

 

Wow

 

What I think is how much worse would this have been if Alex Smith had actually been knocked out or Crabtree's ACL was re-injured in the process of that game... The fact that no one got hurt really, really helped Williams, Loomis, Payton, Vitt, etc out a lot...

I still think this audio was 'leaked' by De Smith and the NFLPA...they want all the emphasis of the punishment to be on the coaching staff and FO and none on the players...I mean, the defense for Jonathon Vilma would be basically, "Hey, I was just following orders here. Never mind that the implication was that I purposefully hurt another player...don't blame me, blame Gregg Williams..."

 

Of the two teams the 49ers were MUCH more brutal that day.

 

I think paytons appeal has to be denied.

 

Its strange... you listen to parts of it... the whole kill the head, the body dies stuff... to me... that's just a metaphor. Williams then however goes on to talk about basically taking shots to guys heads in the pile and such, then it becomes obvious its gone beyond just being a metaphor for "slaying a giant" so to speak.

Once he gets to the part about the concussion issues of Williams, and the ACL of crabtree, then its obvious what he's doing. Ridiculous really.

Although, Cory Proctor has already said it, I heard Jim Miller somewhat confirming it on Sirius as well... most of the context of that speech isnt out of the norm. Coaches always gameplan to take a guy out of the game. Of course, schematically is what theyre getting at though. However, you can not convince me there is not one defensive coach who has asked his players over the course of the NFL to go out, and crush a QB, or a RB to make him think twice about the way he plays his game, to intimidate him, to make him want to surrender and not run like he normally runs, or stand in the pocket as long as he normally does. It happens all the time. GUARANTEED. Now, if you're paying guys to go out there and do it... then it becomes a different story.

It's no surprise though that Williams' ban is indefinite. Godell needs to send the message.

I just question what goes on in every other locker room. Is it really that different than this? I doubt it. Are they offering incentives to their players to take guys out? Probably not... but is that really what this is all over? Just the fact that Williams paid them some extra cash to hit someone harder than normal? Hell... it's like saying its ok to say this stuff, but once you pay a guy extra for it, its not allowed? Crazy when you think about it... it's the mentality the game has taken on that needs to be changed. Hope the punishments handed down does that.

 

Yeah I agree the language is pretty general, just much more shocking in light of the bounty stuff. Especially if he really did rub his fingers together.
I mean really who hasn't thought of killing alex smith?

 

First thing I thought this morning

 

The incentive to knock guys out is there without the "bounty":

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d825fe041/Whitner-hit-causes-fumble

Thats the clear and obvious benefit to trying to knock guys - especially ones with concussion histories - out. It won the game for SF in this case.

 

I also think that the fact that money exchanged hands to purposefully injure other players is being downplayed by those that claim that "this is normal for coachspeak in motivating players" approach. This is the issue at hand. Not that teams don't or haven't game planned around a particular players' injury, that is part of the game and the heart of the dilemma regarding the injury reporting procedure.... The adage of "kill the head of the snake and the body dies" is entrenched in many walks of life, from football, to business, to wars...

The thing is, this isn't a coach setting up an incentive program for his players for making good plays. This is telling players, you go out and hurt this guy or that guy and you will be rewarded with extra pay and notoriety in this locker room.

The opposite side of this is the old time (at least in my short HS and college playing days) running laps or pushups for punishment of dropping a pass in practice or letting a wr get behind you in practice, fumbling the ball, etc... Or pizza and beer for reaching a collective goal...as we used to do in my business. These things can't be compared to paying a guy to purposefully trying to take another player out of a game.

 

I think you are very, very right there, but that's not what Williams was saying in this tape. He was 'in other words' saying to the players, "circumvent the rules, hit a player's head in the pile, take out a guy's ACL, etc and you will be rewarded via a little extra cash as well as going on to the next round of the POs or to the SB, etc. That's a lot different than saying to your team " Hit them in the mouth, intimidate them, make the QB think about getting hit...

But this is why I still contend this was released by the NFLPA to negate the impact on it's players when their punishment is handed down...It's just too convenient that the NFLPA met on Monday and with the appeals of the staff being reviewed today...it's just too much of a coincidence...

 

Sure Sean Payton isn't aware of how his defensive coordinator is saying to his players in the meeting room..appeal denied, lol

I believe there are other ways to instill a violent aggressive defensive nature, without having to pin point specific body parts, and offering money..

Glad that dude is not on our team and the coach who wanted him for that matter..thanks Ross.

 

A player could use the defense; if he didn't listen to his coach, he would have been benched.

I don't see Williams coaching in the NFL or college ever again.

 

Just following orders? Has that defense ever worked?


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I see what you're saying for sure...I pondered the same thing. But the difference is in your post. Its one to use a metaphor, that Frank Gore is the head of the giant, take him out of the game and the whole thing will collapse. Its another to go on to say you need to hit him in the helmet. One thing to say you need to play him hard, push him to the edges, lay a good hard clean hit. Its another to do what comes across as encourage helmet to helmet hits.

Its like the difference between telling your good buddy "Hey, **** you!" and actually ****ing your good friend.

Fine line of course, but its a huge difference. If my boss tells me I need to kick the *** out of the competition, I get it...I work hard and aim to the be best at what I do. If he literally tells me to beat them up when we're in the same room...its a completely different story. Sure you can break it down to be silly and simplistic, but its not. There is a line and it sure seems like they crossed it.

I would hope the majority of clubs and players and coaches all understand that line and stay on a proper side of it, however.

 

I can't really see anyone defending this when he brings up the acl. I mean that can end a players career in the NFL really makes you think about all that player brotherhood crap they spew to be majorly false if there ok going after someones acl.

 

**** him.

Ban him, don't even bother to tell him, just do it and when he finds he can't get back in the building he'll figure it out. He's affecting people's livelihood's period and possibly taking food of their table. Get rid of the piece of trash once and for all.

Ban everyone involved, period. No time limit, you're done, don't care, never will - you're gone and never come back.

 

I agree.

This is a rough sport but there's a world of difference between hard nosed and frankly being a bad human being.

I honestly wonder if he is exempt from criminal charges. He was encouraging men to purposefully injure other people. I know battery is slippery in a sport where people hit each other as part of the game but willful and malicious intent to injure is something of it's own nature.

 

he's made enough money in his career, shouldn't be allowed to make anymore.

 

Funny thing is Williams truly is a villain. His public persona has always made him look like one of the most cantankerous, arrogant SOBs in the business.

 

Yeah, and now Vitt's lawyer is now claiming Williams was a rogue coach and was fired 2 days later...well, they knew there was something going on well before this video was taped, so why didn't Payton and/or Loomis fire him before this ?? He'd already been caught continuing on with the program prior to this ??

There are certainly varying degrees of guilt with the Saints...bottom line, I would think is Sean Payton...it's too widespread and common knowledge for them to not know that this was still going on...They are spinning it all on Williams...

 

Here is the big difference the way I see it.

Greg Williams got caught, the 31 other defensive co ordinators did not.

 

You really think 31 other DCs are paying guys to intentionally hurt other players ?? Yeah, he got caught, apparently lied about it, got caught again and now is suspended...and not appealing his decision... He's guilty on several levels. Not about telling his guys to hit a guy hard and intimidate...it's about telling his guys to intentionally hurt another player and then paying/rewarding those guys for doing that...

 

What goes around comes around. Hes a serious a*****e. Hes all about earning his weekly pay cheque and not about coaching playing hard and fair. Giving it the gangster mentality shows hes weak in the actual player management of true football. I coach 16 to 19yr olds and i wont be reading the Williams book of coaching too soon. Good riddance.

 

There isnt anything shocking to me about htis tape.....except that he mentioned "ACL" and he seems to encourage helmet to helmet (for that he is definitely wrong)....if you dont think this stuff goes on around the country....think again...

 

They LIED to the commisioner , they were told to stop and they continually lied about the actions. Some of this is pretty common , certain of that , however much of it certainly crossed the line , but that you would blatantly lie, repeatedly to your comissioner doesn't make me very forgiving.

Payton is lucky it is just one year.

 

That's exactly it, there is a line... they crossed it... but all in all unfortunately it appears they only crossed it because they offered up cash, for someone to follow through with the intent to injure. Had they not offered up the cash, we probably wouldnt even be talking about this issue.. That to me... is the real issue. It's the culture of the game that has changed, and not in a good way. It's one thing to be physical, hell, its a physical game. When you talk about hurting guys though... its crossing the line IMO. The way its getting spun by the media, maybe even the NFL itself though is the issue at hand is the fact they offered up cash and incentives, which makes it a bounty. To me, thats not the issue.. The issue is the culture of the game has gone from physical competition, to physical competition to win at all costs even if it means injuring someone and ending their career. Sure, both of those things could happen on any play, that's a risk all players accept, but you're also expected in the "unwritten rules" of the game to try and avoid that, but be awfully close to it. Now, it seems we're actually trying to encourage it. That... isnt good.

 

I dont know about that... But... he only "got caught" as you say because he was paying guys apparently to carry out these actions. If he wasnt doing that... we're probably not having this discussion, as I just said in a previous post... to me, that's the real issue here. It's going on regardless of payments being made or not, and IMO... instructing guys to go out, and take a guy out of the game... is not in the spirit of the game. It's not what I want to see. If I want to see that, Ill watch MMA... sure football is physical, its supposed to be. There's no reason it cant be, without the intent to injure, or take a guy out of the game because you feel he can beat you. Do you want to hit him, and hit him hard. Absolutely, I dont want to see that change. But you shouldn't be going out there to hit the guy, with the intent to blow out his ACL, or give him a concussion. That's the big problem here.

 

Helmet-to-helmet is within the rules in many circumstances.

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d825fe041/Whitner-hit-causes-fumble

Do you think Whitner went helmet-to-helmet in that play for cash? Seems clear to me that he made a conscious decision to go helmet-high there (which is within the rules).

 

I actually believe they do to a certain extent. At least a good amount of them, especially the old school DC's.

Just listen to the players of the 70s talk. A decent amount of coaches played in that era, learned how to coach in that era and/or was mentored by a coach from that era. Saints might have been the worst offenders, and were the unlucky ones to get caught red handed.

I do believe that this is a good step in changing the culture.