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Gruden Resigns

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Oct 11, 2021.

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  1. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    It's human nature. That's the history of the world. The entire Western world goes "too far" in trying to impose its values on everyone else. The Islamic world does the same, Christians the same, etc. Complaining about that gets you nowhere because that how we're built as humans. The same is true for racism. It's built into our system to discriminate against people who are dissimilar, though what features or characteristics of a person (physical/ideological, etc.) we discriminate against changes depending on the situation. Sometimes it's more "race", sometimes it's more "beliefs", etc. but you'll never get rid of racism or discrimination in general unless you genetically re-engineer humans. It's part of who we are. Not even sure you can say it's "bad" given how natural this is and how it's necessary for humans to compete against each other.

    Anyway, seeing this "woke" and "cancel culture" as just another power struggle rather than saying it's "good" or "bad", my prediction is it'll die down within 5-10 years because I think they went too far. Had they kept it at a level where it doesn't upset too many people it would have had a lasting impact, but I think it's making too many people upset and a counter-revolution is slowly brewing. The "punishment" doesn't fit the "crime" in the eyes of far too many people.
     
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  2. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I disagree. I do think racism will go away in time because race is a terrible way to catogorize people. It makes little to no sense. It will take a very long time, however, I doubt in 100 to 500 years if humans survive that race will be a thing. Now class will probably always exist. That will be very hard to get rid of in society.

    I don't think it will "die down" in 5 to 10 years. The backlash is from the older generation. The younger generation are way more "woke" than the people who are actually in power. The counter-revolultion isn't a thing. It is just the old guard doing what they always did.
     
  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Historically, you're correct- we're wired to reject different. But in today's society it's instant reactions everywhere with the media playing the catalyst. For example, you read a story every week where a journalist says, "The internet is outraged at..." But was it really the entire internet? Or was it a few cherry-picked comments to create a point of view and then labeled as "the entire internet"?

    That's my problem with "cancel culture", so much of it is based on misinformation and shady journalism. We could literally cancel anyone if we spent a few hours digging through their social profiles, etc.
     
  4. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    For me: hypersensitive people who are extreme leftists that see and scream racism even if there is none and don't listen to reason just like racist but the other way around...
     
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  5. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Yea, to me that doesn't make any sense. I still think racism is a lot worse than hyper sensitive people who scream racism.
     
  6. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    My problem with "cancel culture" is that when it comes to people like Gruden or anyone famous, no one is actually canceled. They just have a time that kind of sucks for a while and then come back and still make a lot of money.

    How it doesn't really actually exist.
     
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  7. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I get that, but did you read what the Times is accusing him of saying? He called a few people a p***y (think "cat") and Goodell a homosexual slur starting with "f". And I agree with you- we shouldn't use words like that in emails.

    However, does that mean he should be forced to resign on the spot and throw the Raiders season into a tailspin? This move doesn't just effect him- it's changing the course of the season for 100+ Raiders personnel. Really think about it- has either of those words ever come out of your mouth? And should your boss fire you on the spot for it?

    Again, I agree with you that Gruden was wrong. We just disagree on the punishment that should fit his actions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021
  8. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Same thing to me, don't like extremists and that's what they are.
     
  9. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Raiders.
     
  10. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Not in my 40s.

    Yes, I do agree that sometimes we as a society goes overboard when someone is young and stupid does something young and stupid AND that they already apologized for it. I think people should be able to apologize from things from the past.

    However, not only has there been emails since at least 2018, he has come out with the "I don't have a racist bone in my body" bs, and has just not taken responsibility for his actions.

    So yes, by his reaction he does deserve to be fired. He was a full adult. Adults have consequences for their actions. That is what it means to be an adult.

    I also think there is a big difference if he was a worker who is not in the public eye and had private emails leaked and someone whose job it is to be in the public. They live by different rules.
     
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  11. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Yea, that doesn't make sense to me. Especially since extreme racists want me dead and extreme anti-racists want me to be treated like a normal human being.
     
  12. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You're right, they do have different rules- but is that fair? We all say stupid things from time to time and some of those things would be insensitive if the world saw them directly. Like I said earlier, I honestly believe that I could spend an hour on any of your social profiles and find a reason you should be "cancelled" by society.

    In other words, I don't think what Gruden said is unique enough to warrant this response.
     
  13. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    no, it is not fair. We live in a society where everyone has different rules.

    By what he wrote I don't see how he can be a leader of people.

    There is a huge difference between being insensitive and writing what Gruden wrote.
     
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  14. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Unless they think you're a racist, even if your not... Wish it would be as simple as you're putting it.
     
  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    My experience is that most people who are racist in modern day society think they are not.

    Like John Gruden for instance.
     
  16. Fireland

    Fireland Active Member

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    Everyone in Mark Davis shoes would try to force him out. You have a coach who is giving mediocre results and is getting paid a lot and the now the entire season is going to be about this controversy. Anyone who says they wouldn't want a fresh start is lying.

    And the people defending him are brushing the comment about drafting queers under the rug. That paints a different picture than using a word that some might have used than that might not now.
     
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  17. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    There’s a video of Keyshawn Johnson talking about Gruden always being a fraud. Reminds me when he was on the sidelines talking about how great he was and the announcer pointed out that Marvin Harrison had 70 or 80 more TD’s than him.
     
  18. plc001

    plc001 Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't really exist? It exists for you and I, those of us without the funds to weather it. I don't know if racism and sexism exists to the extent the media portrays. But I do tend to believe classism is a thing. Take Gruden here, compare what's happened to him and what would happen to us. We'd be fired from our job and ruined. Gruden makes enough money that he isn't affected by cancel culture. Same with the policy makers in government. They aren't making policy because they care, neither republican nor democrat. They all make enough money to be above the policies they are implementing. They don't care if they have to spend 4 dollars for a gallon of gas, or if a bag of potato's suddenly cost $10. So they can spend our tax money frivolously, generate more national debt, risk social security, and raise minimum wage to $15/hr. Their spending power wont be reduced... just the majority of Americans who occupy middle class.

    I don't condone rude/mean behavior in any of it's various phobias and forms. Maybe someone should be fired for something they did/said 10 years ago. But there is no room for the defense, for innocent until proven guilty. Its mob rule. I don't know that a person's livelihood should be at risk for saying something wrong. Every one of us is capable of having a bad day and saying something stupid or saying something that was misunderstood or simply delivered in a way you didn't intend. But if the right camera phone catches you, your employer, under social/media pressure, will let you go.

    And some of this stuff they'll cancel you for is opinion based.
     
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  19. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I think that this is the fundamental problem. There are literally people on this board that fundamentally do not think that adults need to be respectful. The guy was racist, sexist, and homophobic, and somehow people see him as the victim as they harken back to the "glory days" in which people could ridiculed for these things and had seemingly no recourse.
     
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  20. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    People are unable to parse between legitimately bad actions and immediately crying "cancel culture"!

    Jon Gruden is not a stand-up comedian.
     
  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    If you want to talk about something that doesn't exist, it is the middle class. That has always been a lie by the rich to have the poor fight with the super poor.

    However, life has consequences. We have a responsibility as an adult to not go on a racist rant just because your burger is 5 minutes late.
     
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  22. Destroyer

    Destroyer There for every play.

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    This thread is going as expected. Racism is bad and racists should be fired for being racist, especially when it's on the job. Zero tolerance for that crap. Anyone who doesn't believe racism is still an issue has their head in the sand.
     
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  23. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    To be clear, I'm not arguing in my posts that what Gruden did was acceptable. I'm not saying he's a victim. I believe that we shouldn't do anything that offends others around us...end of story. That should go for all sides, beliefs, etc. Everyone should stop fighting hate with hate.

    What I am arguing is that "cancel culture" is often one group of racist, angry people judging another group of racist, angry people. There's no right or wrong there since all of them are wrong. I don't give bonus points for who told on who first. For someone to call Gruden a racist based on a few personal emails over a decade in time, you're jumping to some racist conclusions about him as well. All of it is wrong- there's no winners or losers in cancel culture.
     
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  24. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    My experience is that most woke/cancel culture people are not self reflected and think that they now everything and only their way is the right way.

    Like Megan Rapinoe for instance.
     
  25. Dol-Fan Dupree

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    I have never disagreed with something more.

    How does the person who says "That guy is racist for saying obviously racist things" just as bad as the person who says the racist things?
     
  26. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Can you explain your experience because it doesn't make sense to me.
     
  27. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Probably not because everything I wrote in this thread didn't make sense to you, why should I keep on trying then...
     
  28. plc001

    plc001 Well-Known Member

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    No way would I consider myself poor. But neither would I consider myself rich. But it's based on geography right... $35,000 a year and you are in the top 1% of the world. The brings virtually everyone in America into the rich category from the worlds perspective. But Americans, especially Americans, always compare up. They compare themselves to their bosses or athletes or some lucky soul who inherited his wealth. Nobody compares down, to the poverty that exists in 99% of the rest of the world. If you did you'd be forced to recognize that you are also blessed beyond reason.

    BTW, this is not to suggest extreme poverty does not exist in America, but for the overwhelming majority of Americans regardless of protected class you fall into, the opportunity exists to escape that poverty. I work with a number of individuals who escaped generational poverty to become financially successful.
     
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  29. Destroyer

    Destroyer There for every play.

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    Cancel Culture people aren't racists. Just because you think they are too sensitive in regards to racism or whatever the issue might be does not make them racist. This is a child like mentality were one kid calls the other a doodoo head the other kid responds no you're the doodoo head.
     
  30. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    That is meaningless too me. In the US if you are making $35,000 a year, you are in poverty. The US might not consider it poverty, but you are one bad thing away from being on the street.

    I don't care about the rest of the world. I don't live there. I live in the US.
     
  31. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think people generally are too sensitive about EVERYTHING. "I'm offended" is the state of norm. And if you can get enough idiots on the internet to agree with you then you have a "movement". It dilutes true issues that need to be dealt with.
     
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  32. plc001

    plc001 Well-Known Member

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    You're a 1%-er... why would you (we) care about the rest of the world. You're (we're) as guilty as you claim the rich are. And the rest of the world hate Americans for it.
     
  33. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Each region in the world has a different economy.

    I care about the rest of the world. I would like everyone to be able to live a comfortable life. I just don't think comparing how much someone in a sweat shop makes in China is a good way of justifying the fact that Americans are well off because they can afford a fridge in their apartment that they are one missed paycheck away from being homeless.
     
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  34. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's a form of discipline against an idea that you don't agree with. If I think a statue should remain as historical context and you get enough wokaholics, they can get you fired for your belief in something that is a generally benign concept. To call someone a racist because they believe that a statue should stay but you don't is not racism in it's purest form but it is some kind of ism and shouldn't be tolerated.
     
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  35. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Why are the rich vilified? It's only money envy.
     
  36. Destroyer

    Destroyer There for every play.

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    Mostly because they pay less taxes than the average working person.
     
  37. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Like Bernie Sanders said when they looked at his taxes (and he's the tax the rich guy), "I followed the current laws". If you're smart enough to work the system and others are too stupid to do the same, then why is the smart guy the problem when the stupid guy doesn't know what the rules are? They have this thing called the internet where you can figure out the rules.
     
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  38. plc001

    plc001 Well-Known Member

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    Come on, even this liberal magazine agrees that the top 1% pay 40% of the taxes. (the article goes on to state that by percentage of their income is low compared to the average american) Not making a statement about fair or unfair. Just stating they pay a lot of taxes.

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/fact-check-richest-1-dont-pay-40-of-the-taxes.html
     
  39. plc001

    plc001 Well-Known Member

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    This goes back to the policy makers living above the policies they set. This is a good example of that. You and I have to live by the tax laws... the rich find ways around it.

    Just to be inclusive, the average american enjoys some perks too. For instance, if you get a speeding ticket what's the first thing you do? Call a lawyer and pay the $300-$500 to avoid the much larger expense coming in the form of increased insurance premiums. However, the poorer americans can't afford that up-front cost. So they end up paying the more expensive insurance premiums which they can't afford either.

    Justice should be the same regardless of how much money you make.
     
  40. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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