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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Perfectville_USA, Jan 26, 2013.
James Jones and Jordy Nelson come to mind, immediately.
He caught more pass and had more yards because Marshall was gone.
No Armando is not always correct but I think the circumstances and situation point to Marshall's release. He played poorly, got hurt real bad, and they ended up one way or another claiming the guy they had considered signing instead of Marshall, and he played well and has virtually the same contract. One is healthy, one is not. One played well, one did not. I think at this point there's a lot more pointing to keeping Patterson and releasing Marshall than the other way around.
Watch the games and you should be able to see some WRs are better than others in compressed spaces like the red zone, unless you just prefer to be intentionally obtuse.
He had double the targets. Literally.
Then you need to go further. Jordy Nelson has never been a free agent, and James Jones has never been as productive as Hartline was this year.
Yes, and this says a whole lot more about the inability to have productive secondary receivers with Brandon Marshall than anything.
Yet his number of yards per target was no different than it was with Marshall present.
And about double the production. Literally.
How will I know that what I'm seeing isn't the exception to the rule, or an anomaly in that particular game?
I'd rather have had the Jame Jones productivity of 2012 than that of Hartline.
Another way to look at this to see if a rookie QB had an effect on Hartline's TD production this year is to go back and look at what Tannehill did in college.
Tannehill: 29 TDs, 531 attempts = TD pass every 18.31 attempts
Luck: 37 TDs, 404 attempts = TD pass every 10.92 attempts
RG3: 37 TDs, 402 attempts = TD pass every 10.86 attempts
Wilson: 33 TDs, 309 attempts = TD pass every 9.36 attempts
Weeden: 37 TDs, 564 attempts = TD pass every 15.24 attempts
Tannehill: 13 TDs, 243 attempts = TD pass every 18.69 attempts
Not sure where people get this idea Tannehill is a TD throwing machine and the only problem is not good enough weapons at WR. He had very good weapons at WR in college...Fuller, Swope...Dolphins just signed Fuller to another contract and Swope is being projected to be drafted in round 4.
Maybe Hartline is more of a playmaker than QBs he has played with have allowed him to be?
Just the fact that he had back surgery should make his release a consideration. Thats the type of thing that changes the trajectory of a career.
Last three season: Jones -17 Tds Hartline - 3 Tds
Last three seasons:
Hartline: Chad Henne, Matt Moore, Ryan Tannehill.
Jones: Aaron Rodgers.
Fuller who went from being a possible 1st round pick to being undrafted?
Any idea of how may of the 11 red zone targets Hartline had this year were actually on target in the end zone? I recall a couple early on were throwaways that go down as targets. I am not signed up with game rewind or would check myself.
James Jones is pretty much a red zone specialist with a quarterback who is going to grossly inflate red zone production. He's not particularly good at moving the chains, nor is he as good as a big play threat as Hartline.
*(On my fantasy football team)
So bad production of a wr is always the qb fault. Got it. No accountability for wrs.
I don't really care about Jones red zone production.
Come on man. We're talking about the difference between who many regard as the best QB in the league (Rodgers), with currently the best QB rating of all time, and two backups (Henne and Moore) and a developmental rookie (Tannehill).
I hardly think that if you attribute the difference between Hartline and James Jones's TD production to that particular degree of a difference at QB, you're saying wide receivers "aren't accountable" for anything.
Never thought I'd see the day when not just one, but two, Redskins free agency contracts are cited as evidence that something like them should be done. Good luck with that, I hope it works out for you.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing here.
I do not agree. When you are on a team with so many other good WRs you don't get targeted with the same frequency.
Is that a D2 school, Marve?
Yes, find a way to blame the Qb instead of Hartline.
Get him the ball where? He is a decent Wr but Qb is not the main problem here. He's had plenty of chances to score after the Qb delivered him the ball and failed.
Really? ..... so what do you think he should've had this year with a good QB that you feel better represents his talent? 1300 yards?
A fair question but an incomplete one also. Were they thrown away because Hartline lacked the ability to get open or because Tannehill could not make the necesarry throw, or did the line not give him enough protection, etc.....
How far do you want to take it?
Right, how dare someone blame a rookie QB, when they typically perform so doggone well.
Hartline isn't a free agent yet either. And if he signed a contract with the Dolphins tomorrow, he'll never have been one.
Hartline's production was a function of not having anyone else. James Jones always had to contend with Greg Jennings, Donald Driver and Jordy Nelson, not to mention the tight ends.
If you're allergic to touchdowns, yes...he had double the production. If you like touchdowns, no he didn't.
I don't know. But he had a couple early in the season in the end zone that could've resulted in touchdowns if he'd been a better player. I isolated the pictures of them here on the board.
And keep in mind wide receivers don't necessarily score the bulk of their touchdowns from inside the red zone. That's why I said the 80 yard touchdown was an anomaly. He can create 30 to 40 yard plays, but only from a certain section of the field where defenses play a certain way, and he generally can't stretch those scores into 60 to 80 yard scores because he doesn't have the speed or tackle-breaking ability. He gets caught from behind, or he fails to break a tackle. From closer to the end zone, say the opponent 40 to 20 yard line, he's easy enough defend that he doesn't score touchdowns there. For example, he averaged 6.9 yards per attempt in that area this year. For his career he averages 17.1 yards per catch on his own end of the field, versus 11.8 yards per catch on the opponent's end of the field.
He is what he is. He's a Z receiver that gets yardage in the kinds of chunks that you'd expect of a Z receiver, but doesn't have the speed or play making ability to turn those big gains into long touchdowns, nor does he have the ability to be a touchdown threat from inside the red zone.
D8 school. Do you wish to enroll? We denied Shouwrong's application, but I think you may get approved. Just bring 2 of my favorite pizzas. Smoked oysters and pineapple.
Not Camarillo like. Camarillo had Pennington throwing him the ball. Hartline has Tannehill.
Heh, I've also seen numerous plays where a better throw from THill and it is 6 pts.
Put yourselves in a GM's shoes and objectively look at Hartline:
-Started 4 yrs
-missed few games
-no real off the field problems
-26 yrs old
-first time as the go to Wr and he produced
5-6 miillie per yr is his market as I've said before, if anything it is a touch low, it should be about 7 millie.
Something like 4 yrs, 28 million sounds about right for him.
Why in the world would Hartline sign a contract tomorrow???? James Jones and Jordy Nelson are not even close to comparable situations.
Plus Bline avg's 15 ypc, guys like him rarely hit the FA mkt, he has a lot of good factors in his favor.
And too bad. I was dying to get in. Figured I would've had a license to steal at that point.
Oh and BTW, the "oysters" thing explains a lot. Do you know the mercury content in them things?
And this season, Randall Cobb. Hartline wouldn't have a third the number of targets if he were on the Packers, as he had in Miami.