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Has a bad coach, ever developed a good or great QB?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by vt_dolfan, Sep 24, 2014.

  1. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I was thinking about this , this AM. I cant think of one good to great QB that was ever developed by a bad head coach. Ive seen ok Qbs developed into good ones by good or great coaches, but never vice versa.

    The top ones are easy right?

    Dan Marino - Don Shula
    Peyton Manning - Tony Dungy
    Tom Brady - Bill Belichick
    Russel Wilson - Pete Carol
    Andrew Luck - Chuck Pagano
    Aaron Rogers - Mike Mcarthy

    But then you see the other coaches who did something with less then good Qbs

    David Woodley - Don Shula
    Kordell Stewart - Bill Cowher
    Jeff Hostetler - Bill Parcels

    Then we have guys like Steve Young:

    1985 - Steve Young - Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Leeman Bennet
    1986 - Steve Young - Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Lemman Bennet

    They drafted Vinny Testaverde in 87 because they thought he was a bust. Bill Walsh sees something comepletely different and makes a trade for him. Result

    Hall of Fame QB.



    I guess my question is this. Unless you have a great head coach, is it next to impossible to develop a good Qb..much less a great one? I just feel like theres another Head Coach out there that looks at Ryan Tannehill and sees something..just like Bill Walsh did, where Walsh believed Youngs issues in Tampa were more a result of a bad organization rather then a bad QB.
     
  2. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    I think some coaches that are considered great were very lucky to have great QBs that made them look better, although to their credit they did recognize the strengths of the QB and built the team around those strengths.
     
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  3. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Boy, you've developed every rationalization/excuse in the book haven't you?

    If not, I'm sure you'll start another thread on it.
     
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  4. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Poor coaching/scheming can absolutely ruin a great QB talent. It's too much for a player to overcome in the NFL.

    I still believe systems/coaching make great QBs, with the exception of Manning, who is his own coordinator/orchestrator.
     
  5. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Why dont you answer the question then....if its an excuse. Put aside the talk about Tannehill...has a bad coach ever developed a good QB?
     
  6. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What's your consideration as good?

    And is Chuck Pagano really a good head coach or in a fortunate situation with Andrew Luck? He's a good defensive coordinator, although you could say anyone coaching those Ravens defenses in their prime were good.

    I ask because if you consider Top 5-10 at the position good, it's going to correlate with wins, which is what a HC is judged by. So, it really has nothing to do with the HC.

    For me, Head Coaches can change franchises, but not nearly as quickly as QBs. To me, this is just an exercise in naming all of the best HC/QB tandems.
     
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  7. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    We have to remember that Tannehill was a major project at quarterback, he wasn't lighting the world on fire during his time in Texas A&M. I thought drafting him where we did was a reach, but I understood the pick. He benefited greatly from the combines/pro day when he displayed accuracy, athleticism and intelligence, but in shorts.. He didn't display those things on the field often for Texas A&M on game days..

    Somehow Tannehill went from starting a season and a half at quarterback for Texas A&M to first round draft pick.. And this franchise obviously was crazy enough to take that chance.

    In 2011 Texas A&M was in the Big 12 and Tannehill had the most interceptions out of all Big 12 quarterbacks, and ranked 7th in the NCAA in interceptions. This is not a guy that came out of the draft known for efficient quarterback play.. Huge project we gambled on.
     
  8. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    But as a corollary to this thinking, the likes of Matt Cassell, Kevin Kolb, AJ Feely, and Matt Flynn would still be franchise changers elsewhere.

    Maybe the sample size behind Luck - Pagano is too small to determine either way, and perhaps Pagano is riding the coattails of Luck's abilities. But look at Alex Smith in the context of Nolan, Singletary, Harbaugh, and finally Reid's systems. His balance of skill/athleticism may be one of the more telling canaries in comparing each system's viability.
     
  9. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    Tony Dungy was not P Manning's first coach, it was Ron Meyer. not someone I'd label as a good coach.
    I'd continue with there's no evidence that Pagano is a good coach yet either.
     
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  10. Dolphans Unite!

    Dolphans Unite! Banned

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    For the relationship between coaching and quarterback play to hold water and have some relevance to the current team, it would also have to be shown that good coaches have almost never had bad QBs.

    If that can't be shown, then how do we know we're not currently dealing with a good coach and a bad QB?
     
  11. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Heres another example: in 1987 Rich Gannon was drafted by the New England Patriots who wanted to turn him into a RB.

    He bounced around from the Vikings, to the Redskins, to the Chiefs before finally being signed as a free agent by the Oakland Raiders. In Jon Gruden's WC offense, he made the Pro Bowl his first season there..the first of four straight Pro Bowl appearances. Wins MVP and a World Championship in 2002.

    Why all the sudden did a QB whom Marty Shotenheimer benched in favor of Elvis Grbac...become a 4 time Pro Bowl , MVP,Super Bowl winning QB?

    The coaching....
     
  12. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I definately agree with the premise. How often have we seen a promising QB come out of college, get dumped into the wrong situation, and it absolutely ruins him. David Carr, Joey Harrington, Brady Quinn, Byron Leftwich, Kyle Boller, Eli Manning, Matt Leinart, Chad Henne and Jimmy Clausen are all QBs who I think could have turned out better had they been drafted into better situations/orginizations,coaching staffs. Some were thrown in too soon, some had horrible teams around them and were left shell shocked, and some had horrible coaches guiding their development.
     
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  13. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Well ..have they:

    Did Don Shula ever have a bad QB?

    Did Bill Parcels when he was Head Coach?

    I cant really think of a good head coach, that did have a bad QB. They eventually made that bad QB into a good one, ala Kordell Stewart. And its not that Kordell Stewart was a good QB...but they played to that QBs strengths.

    I think there are other aspects of Joe Philbins coaching that reveals what kind of coach he is.
     
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  14. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Not to nit pick, but he didn't win that superbowl.
     
  15. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Your right my bad....he lost that one to Tampa.
     
  16. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Sorry...Jim Mora was the head coach. It was Lindy Infante, whom Bill Polian fired, and hired Jim Mora to be the head coach. In 2002 Tony Dungy became head coach.
     
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  17. Firesole

    Firesole Season Ticket Holder

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    I was just about to say the same. For a moment there I thought I wandered into the Marijuana subforum
     
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  18. Firesole

    Firesole Season Ticket Holder

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    As far as the question of the OP goes, I'd have to answer it with another question. How many great QBs can you remember that played for a bad coach? I tend to believe that the good QBs are what helps to make the coach great.

    Take Bill Bellichek for example. How great was he before Tom Brady came along?
     
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  19. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The audacity of him not just to take your word as gospel the unmitigated gall
     
  20. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Im fairly certain their is unanimous agreement that Bill Belichick is a great coach whether he had Tom Brady or not.
     
  21. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Naw its fine..Ive yapped at him for being negative about RT17..door swings both ways.
     
  22. lohink

    lohink Season Ticket Holder

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    Bottom line some coaches are better at getting the most out of qb's than others. In my opinion Chucky has the best track record Rich Gannon and Brad Johnson are both average and he got the most out of.
     
  23. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Arguably Manning starting out with Mora then again with Jim Caldwell. Many other factors played a role in team performance, but that's one example off the top of my head.

    Sent from my LG-MS770 using Tapatalk
     
  24. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I have no issues questioning RT he desrves them but is the offense crap because of him, is a piece or is the offense crap that is causing him to look bad? Imo you need to know, your question gets to that answer. Why is it important? Because changing qbs as shot in the dark is the equivalent of throwing darts at a board and hoping 1 sticks

    You can do more harm than good if you change qb and are wrong
     
  25. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    But he sucks at drafting or developing a young QB.
     
  26. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    I watched a lot of Chiefs games back when Gannon was the QB there, best friend was a Chiefs fan. Most of your Chiefs fans were yelling for Gannon to start because of what he flashed in relief. While I agree he moved to a better system in Oakland, I don't think he was developed there
     
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  27. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    There are some things that concern me when it comes to evaluating Ryan Tannehill...and I cant decide if its coaching or if its Tannehill.

    Ryan has always thrived in the 2 min offense. He did in his rookie year, did even more so last season, and when we have seen them go hurry up this season. The offense moves better, they move crisp and with purpose. Why arent they using that more often, if in fact he seems to thrive in it. When Philbin came in, we heard how he was gonna hurry up the offense. I remember his practices were high pace...people were talking about the number of snaps they were running in practice. But when it came to game time, it never materialized. I know Ross when he hired Philbin, wanted an offense that creates big plays. He wanted a high scoring offense...and theres no way I can prove this...but I imagine thats what Philbin said he would run.

    Turn to this year...again...Lazor comes in, we here talk of running a South Philly offense. We know they practiced it ALOT during training camp. In fact many of the things they did during training camp, has not translated into the regular season. Now WE KNOW, Philbin has final say on whats run, because WE KNOW he told Bill Lazor to call all running plays at the end of the first half in the Bills game. Why arent they moving the pocket to give him time? Why arent they going to a fast paced hurry up sooner. Philbin said he likes to go hurry up after they convert third downs....why are we waiting? Why not start out in hurry up? If your gonna try and win games with Ryan Tannehill, do what the guy does best. If he fails at that...ok...move on to Matt Moore. Call read option running plays for Ryan. We KNOW he can do it. Its not like Ryan isnt a good runner. We know how accurate he is moving and throwing....why arent they using it?

    Thats the coaching part of things that bother me. I dont feel like they are running the offense to Tannehills strengths

    You say you want to go into a game with all the bullets you can...then use all the damned bullets.
     
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  28. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    No..but you have to agree that his talent was recognized and his strengths were better recognized in Oakland. Shottenheimer chose Elvis Grbac over Gannon. Gruden who I believe..had total control over roster etc....signed Rich Gannon.
     
  29. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I think that some QBs can be great regardless of the situation - Dan Marino, Peyton Manning, John Elway from my lifetime. Then you have those that play great in the right situation, but wouldn't be as good if the circumstances weren't right - Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Drew Brees. And then you have QB's who absolutely had to be in the right situation, or else they would barely be remembered at all - Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselbeck, Matt Schaub.
     
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  30. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    If BB didn't have Tom Brady, he would be remembered for his work in Cleveland, basically. As a coach, BB gets away with a lot of **** because he's BB.
     
  31. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I disagree with that completely. They won their first Super Bowl with Tom Brady playing very conservativley. That defense was awsome..and he built that defense with everyone elses cast outs..

    You take a look at the 2002 Super Bowl Roster and tell me you see a Super Bowl team there.
     
  32. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    And heres the other thing..this division is wide open. The Patriots are VERY beatable..we absolutely can win this division if the offense gets its *** in gear. If you KNOW RT isnt your guy..then you have to go to Moore right?
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Beat me to it. Jim Mora Sr. was Peyton Manning's head coach for his first four years in the NFL, and Peyton was a damn good QB back then too. It's not like he "broke out" under Dungy or anything like that.

    Phil Rivers only had one year of starting under Marty Schottenheimer before Norv Turner took over, and he had three of his best years as a pro under Norv Turner who wasn't exactly a great coach.

    Do Hugh Campbell or Jerry Glanville qualify as "great coaches"? They developed Warren Moon, one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game.

    I don't know if Sam Wyche would be considered one of the great coaches or not. He developed Boomer Esiason.

    Marvin Lewis qualify? He "developed" Carson Palmer.

    Tony Romo only started for one year under Bill Parcells before being coached by Wade Phillips.

    Matt Stafford was never coached by anyone worth a damn.

    Who's Cam Newton being coached by?

    Same with Andrew Luck.
     
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  34. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Sam Wyche might not be a hall of fame head coach, but I would contend that he is considered really really good.
     
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  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I suppose. I can't help but think of the Sam Wyche that coached the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

    I mean, the dude does have a 0.440 winning percentage. Even if you exclude his time in Tampa it was 0.480 in Cincinnati. That's very Philbin-ish.
     
  36. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Bill Parcells built that defense.
     
  37. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    Bruce Arians in his rookie season.
     
  38. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is true. I mostly know him from his three good seasons and being one interception away from winning the superbowl.

    Mostly remember people talking about how great he is.

    Plus the fact that his voice sounds exactly like the Heartbreak Kid Sam Michaels.
     
  39. phinswolverinesrockets

    phinswolverinesrockets If he dies, he dies

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    Warren Moon
     
  40. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    There is evidence galore that Arians and Ryan are good coaches in spite of their QBs being subpar at that.
     

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