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Help a "falling" Christian

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by OhioPhin, Aug 5, 2010.

  1. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    our conceptions of good and evil may not be entirely accurate

    we analyze these things as if they will be true for all time. all of the logical assumptions seem to be based on this. but the judeo-chrisitian tradition does not assert that conditions of our world will endure.

    even if evil is a contruct and good is a construct, these things only exist in our own mind in not in the greater reality of god. he has a plan not yet realized. but we are not left alone with these constructs to fend for ourselves. presumably, a creator has left us with inspired text to give us direction upon which we are to exercise our free will. our morality in this world may not be "real" because we are not yet able to experience true goodness. we only have glimpses of these attributes

    these arguments have to be seen as existing on different planes of existence or in a sense, other dimensions.
     
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  2. my 2 cents

    my 2 cents Well-Known Member

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    No judgments here, but to question a higher being, motivations or to question something or someone situationally is not faith.....

    Faith is by definition belief without evidence.

    Faith is something you truly own or do not own, entirely within you and the confines of your own heart and mind.
     
  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I am saying that the events that you describe as evil are only evil because you believe it is evil or bad.

    Concepts do not exist and only exist because language exists. If you say someone is evil, I understand what you mean by it, because I understand the concept of evil. That does not mean that the person is evil. From different perspectives the person could be good or just a person who did some stuff.

    I do not believe evil is in this world because I do not believe in a cartoon/movie universe. Cobra is evil, the Joker is evil, people in the real world are just messed up
     
  4. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    you only have a conception of evil because you have a conception of good.

    my argument splits somewhere in the middle, but in a different way

    true good is unknowable to us at this point. but i agree that is doenst mean they arent useful. without them we are left with nothing and can explain nothing
     
  5. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    id like to hear what OhioPhin thinks about this thread

    i have hit a bit of despair as well. i dont know of a church or group that views things quite the way i do outside of some christian philosophy. judaism is close, but problematic

    im left with just my own faith, alone. that cant be right
     
  6. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I do not believe that either. I believe that comes from the mindset that exists from a monotheistic point of view. I can have a concept of good without a concept of evil. The only difference would be I wouldn't really need the concept of good in comparison to evil. The concept that would exist would be good, and more good, and extremely good or lacking of good.

    We do not live in a black/white universe. We can understand things without having the opposite of that thing existing in some form. There are many shades of gray.

    Without "good or evil" we think of something different and things in an entirely new way. Take Hitler for example. It is very easy to just describe him as evil and be done with it. However Hitler is much more complex than just a person who wants to do evil things. World War II is much more complex than good versus evil. In fact looking at how people think of WWII and how Nazi's were evil, however the Japanese are an afterthought. What they did to China was just as bad as what the Nazi's did to the Jewish population. However when using the concept of evil people will use Nazi's and not the Japanese, even though they did put Chinese people in centrifuges just to see what would happen. We hunt Nazi's and Americans actually protect the Japanese war criminals because we wanted their horrible research.

    Somehow General Hideki Tojo escapes when people talk about evil people. Same with Columbus who is described as evil to the natives to this country due to the fact that he killed a lot of them. Andrew Jackson is another example of someone who we celebrate who a lot of people think is evil.

    The older I have gotten the more useless I have seen the concept of evil. In the real world it does not exist. It is really good for cartoons and movies.
     
  7. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    you only know a line is crooked because you have seen a straight line

    actually, evil described is the absence of good. so in a way you arguing semantics

    i would never assert black and white for looking at the universe. i dont need any convincing and as i suggested, the true meanings of the terms are actually unknowable to us
     
  8. OhioPhin

    OhioPhin Just Getting Started

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    This thread has gotten more of a response than I expected. There have been some very good points made, and I respect everyone's opinions. Thank you to all who have responded to this thread.

    There have been a few responses that really have me thinking that I'm looking at this situation in the wrong way. Maybe this preacher was rewarded with his treasures in heaven, but in my eyes, his wife and children will be punished for the rest of their lives.

    I still have many questions, but I don't want to insult anyone or open this forum up for these questions. I have gained alot from reading all of your posts, and now I have some more things weighing on my mind.

    To Ohiophinphan, I sent you a PM about where I live.
     
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  9. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Got it and responded. We are 2-3 hours apart I think
     
  10. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    I understand that but you are saying.Yes it is a human concept. Its basically the same as saying common sense. It is very relative to the person just what common sense is. All things, language and otherwise, is conceptual, as all of it comes from human concepts. Math for instance, although fitting, is conceptual, in fact some cultures counted in very different ways, with different bases, etc. It does not change the fact that the universe exists on mathmatical concepts. In other words there is description and what actually exists.
    Evil is a concept yes, but it does not mean acts which are evil, or bad, or seen as unethical wouldn't exist.
     
  11. maynard

    maynard Who, whom?

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    :knucks:

    all of us are on a journey. as i said, right now i feel like im on an island.
     
  12. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    No, I only care about a line being crooked or straight because there is a difference between the two. I would still know a line is crooked. The amount I care would be different.

    Evil is the anti-good. Evil and lack of good are two different things. An evil person is incapable of being good. A person lacking good is a person who is capable of being good, just isn't using his capacity for good. It is a completely different mindset.
     
  13. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    One of the differences would be that you can use mathematical concepts to prove things about the universe and gain a better understanding.

    You cannot prove evil. You cannot quantify evil. In fact anything that is described as evil can be described as good from a different perspective.

    Yes acts that you would use the concept of evil would exist without the concept of evil. However it wouldn't be described as such and, in my opinion, the understandings of events would actually increase, since calling something evil is a huge cop out.

    So back to my point, if someone says, "There is evil in this world." I do not agree. Also there can still be good and I can describe the world just fine without the concept of evil.
     
  14. TheMageGandalf

    TheMageGandalf Senior Member

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    *Note these are my beliefs, you can choose to believe what you want*

    These are a few texts which describe my feelings as far as the world and who really rules it:

    1 John 5:19 "We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one."

    Matthew 4:8 "Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”

    **Would Satan's offer have been a real temptation if Satan was not actually the ruler of these kingdoms?

    Also: 2 Corinthians 4:4 "among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."

    I do not agree that God does these things (let people die, get sick, suffer etc.). These are things brought upon by Satan and this system of things.

    I could get into why things are the way they are, but I dont have time now unfortunately. Having written all of this as it is I problably got logged out and will have to copy/paste and log back in.
     
  15. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It has been said that "All man's woe's stem from his desires".Imo I would spend some time in deep reflection examining the things that you perceive to be missing in your life.
     

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