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Help me understand Griers offseason plan

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by mlb1399, Sep 26, 2021.

  1. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea how this guy has a job.

    1. OL. Decides to go for a youth movement and we are fielding the worst OL i've seen. Meanwhile, this draft had 2 elite OL prospects, both of which we could have taken depending on whether we made the trade down or not.

    2. Pass rush. We get rid of Van Noy and Lawson to go for Phillips and AVG. We have no pass rush unless we bring 7 people.

    3. QB- We are relying on a QB who got pulled because he couldn't move another garbage offense last year and cannot stay healthy. Our back up has never started outside of injuries.

    4. Trades- We pull off a monster haul trading with SF. We then trade back up and instead of giving SF's pick, who anyone with a brain knew would be better than Miami, and now with a crappy season will be drafting late in the 1st round. How would Slater look on this OL? What about Sewell? Nope, slot receiver who isn't going to do much with this offense. One of the basic rules of building a team is build from the inside out.

    5. Blow the lid off of defenses. Refer back to #1. How do you do this when you cannot protect your QB? Are they building this plan for 2023/24?

    6. Tunsil trade- we pull off an almost Hershel Walker level trade. The Cowboys used this to build a dynasty. Miami, back to 6-8 win purgatory.

    Mr Grier, you're fired!
     
  2. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    We acquired so many first round picks i dont even know who in our team is suppose to be a first round talent.. theyre all playing like undrafted free agents
     
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  3. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Grier is looking indefensible tbh. My personal bar was playoffs or bust and unless things change fast, we are going bust. If this season continues along this track Grier's pink slip is a must. This is horrendous. I will add in the OC abomination - how did he not know to get his defensively oriented coach a top OC?!?! Surely he could have convinced Ross - liberal with his checkbook as he is - to lure SOMEONE??
     
  4. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Grier is looking suspect.
     
  5. M1NDCRlME

    M1NDCRlME Fear The Spear

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    There is no plan. Only Zuul
     
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  6. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the post of the year. Love Ghostbusters
     
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  7. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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  8. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    I think Flores can coach but Grier looks like a clear failure as GM. But you never know there is others who turned their careers around after they‘ve been here…
     
  9. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'll help- Grier's offseason plan was for 100% of our picks to develop, even though that never happens in the NFL.

    Personally, I'm judging Grier almost 100% on Tua...and I desperately want Tua to be the man. If he's not, then the whole, "perennial playoff contender" stuff from three years ago was a complete con...which I was highly vocal about and you guys gave me a ton of grief over. But again, I so desperately want to be wrong about Grier since I hated the hiring more than anyone here. But you have to hit on your quarterback- it's a death sentence without it and then all the other picks go under a microscope as well (Iggy, Jackson, etc.).

    I can still see the vision and I still think we have a very good team, but I think there's various personnel issues in coaching, management and scouting. And I'm not talking about Flores (yet)- I love what he's done with minimal talent so far. But at some point, that benefit of the doubt fades away and you have to judge solely on winning.

    My opinion moving forward is going to be solely based on 2018 under Gase- we went 7-9 with Tannehill hurt for a large chunk of the season. You guys will say Gase was trash and now in hindsight, maybe you're right. But if Gase is trash and Flores is quality, a 7 or 8 win season in year three is unacceptable. They need to turn this ship around quickly and repeat with 10 wins to prevent yet another rebuild. And honestly, in 2021 it's the exact same as 2018...it comes down to that offensive line and the franchise quarterback (which isn't on the field).

    Today was acceptable- you can lose to a top AFC opponent on the road in overtime. No harm, no foul this early in the season. But they need to right this ship in a hurry.
     
  10. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    The sting of a fresh loss always hurts the most. Like many of you, I too was screaming at the TV, but let’s all take a breath and be realistic.

    Last week’s loss to Buffalo stung quite a bit, not even able to avoid a shutout but it’s no secret, the Buffalo Bills are a legit elite team. Although we fans truly hoped for a win, deep down we all k we that was a loss before the game even started.

    Today’s loss to the Raiders…again, let’s be honest. The Raiders are a legitimate team, having already defeated the Ravens and the Steelers…two teams with stout defenses that Carr picked apart. It’s not surprising they were able to do the same to us.

    As I said last week, it’s not like we lost to the Lions, Jets or Jaguars. We lost to two GOOD teams.

    Now with that being said, 5 yard passes just aren’t going to cut it. Rushing the ball only 13 times versus 48 passes isn’t going to cut it. Our quarterback play is weak, Brissett or Tagovailoa. The only way that play is going to get any better is to put an effort at running the ball and the only way that is going to happen is for the offensive line to win in the trenches. If the offense doesn’t step up, the defense is going to get worn down. That was pretty much what happened last week and the offense didn’t help the defense out very much today.
     
  11. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    When you want to BE a good team, you need to BEAT good teams. The fact that we are losing to good teams isn't solace, it's indictment. Not only are we apparently not better than we were last year, we might be worse.
     
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  12. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Ok....Tua got hurt...Cracked ribs. I don't think the jury is out on him yet. He's going to come back and we're going to be excited when he does. This team as is right now is basically a .500 ball club. We're not going to win many games with the offensive line playing the way it does. That doesn't mean that the O line can't get it together and start gelling. It is a long season and I think we'll get that part under control. The pass rush on defense isn't what it was last year, but we're still getting sacks and we're still making plays. You can't put this on the defense when the offense gives them literally nothing to work with for 75% of the game.
    Now I can't say this enough. We will never win a damn thing until we have a franchise Quarterback on this roster. We will never go into a game with full confidence until there is a franchise quarterback on this roster. When and if we find that "guy", a lot of these other shortcomings and issues are going to go away. When we find that guy, drafting Jaylen Waddle will make perfect sense. When we find that guy, Mike Gesicki will be an all pro tight end, when we find that guy, we will never ever ever be completely out of a game.
    Simply put, we need a great quarterback to lead this team. To me, so far, Tua does not look like he's it. It pains me deeply to say that, but that's how I feel until he consistently shows me otherwise. We've got two more games to go with Brissett as our QB. I think we can beat the Colts next week, but that will be an ugly ugly game for sure. We will not be beating the Bucs in week 5, so I think at best we should hope for 2-3 by the time Tua returns. At that point we'll have Jacksonville and then Atlanta. Two very winnable games that should get us back on track.
     
  13. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Club Member

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    I'm with you on Grier being in trouble. Totally. But can you elaborate on this? What do you mean that picks never develop? Guys get better on most NFL teams all the time. Just not Miami nearly enough.
     
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  14. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    He is saying that 100% of draft picks do not develop. The high number and that Grier was banking on the high number of draft picks to develop.
     
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  15. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Club Member

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    Well, you certainly hope that the high ones do. Its understandable that guys in the 5th round and later are a bit of a crap shoot, but I think most teams expect the ones taken before that to get better every year at least to their mid 20s.
     
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  16. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oh, I just meant that the bust rate of any NFL drafted player is around 50%...so you will miss on players often, even in the early rounds. That's forgivable in most cases as long as your roster continues to develop and remains competitive. So if we win 10+ this year, despite any other circumstances, then I can't pass judgement against Grier.

    But you have to remember, we gutted the roster and traded away the house talent (Fitz, Tannehill, Tunsil, Drake, etc). So that 50% average bust rate puts Grier dangerously close to being fired practically on day one if he doesn't find immediate starters throughout the rounds. There's just not much room for missing when you're starting 1st year players in 30+ core roster slots.

    The only exception is an early 1st round QB- you absolutely, positively have to hit there. If a mid-2nd round QB busts, then it stinks but it's not franchise-altering because you just bench that kid and give him another year to grow. But Tua, Herbert, Burrow, Lawrence, Wilson, etc. need to play and produce pretty fast- it's an unwritten BS rule that teams follow, but the pressure is huge on those kinds of picks.

    So what I'm saying is that if we whiffed on Iggy, it's forgivable. If we whiffed on Tua, a GM should be fired for it. Someone like the Colts, on the other hand, can whiff on Eason in the 4th round and it's acceptable....the same pressure isn't there for instant success like there is with Tua, Burrow, Murry, etc.
     
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  17. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    He tried to be smarter then everybody else and failed imo. Don't like what he did with our haul of first round draft picks and our free agent signings are suspect as well not looking very promising...
     
  18. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Seeing my boy Herbert beat KC should really drive the nail into Grier's coffin with Miami.
     
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  19. Fireland

    Fireland Active Member

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    Its worse for the franchise to miss on the QB but at least you can understand it. Teams miss on top 10 QBs all the time.

    Noah isn't even good enough to back anyone up and he wasn't a need at all. At least if they had a great draft beyond Tua you could feel good about them taking another crack at it.

    I am very convinced Herbert still busts in Miami with that offensive line and nonexistent offensive game plan
     
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  20. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would guess that Noah was expected to start opposite Howard...but then we saw Jones and jumped at the change to have two lock-down corners. Needham was also a very pleasant surprise and although he was undrafted, you have to give props all the same. I'm wondering if Iggy can be converted to a DE or a safety to salvage the pick- if not, I don't know why he's even on the roster still.

    I agree with your Herbert comment as well- people just don't understand that protection is what drives solid QB play. Just look at Tannehill....or Darnold in Carolina. How were these guys average for years, only to find a lot of success with their 2nd teams? It all comes down to protecting them and building schemes to get the ball out of their hands. If your QB is taking frequent hits, you've failed as an organization....there's no ifs, ands or buts there.

    I do think that the Herbert style of football is exciting to watch, it's sort of that Favre/Elway old-school mold of gun-slinging. But I'll also say that when you protect Tua and letting him throw clean passes, his accuracy is off-the-charts incredible and it leads to huge plays. For instance, those simple slants and hitting players in stride- Brissett threw several of those yesterday and the receiver got hit instantly because the pass was slightly off. With Tua, we'd see those go for 10+ after the catch regularly. That's his superpower...pinpoint accuracy...but you can't see that regularly if he's getting clobbered.

    I think behind a solid offensive line and the exact same receivers, the Tua/Herbert conversation would be a lot closer than people want to admit. Two very different QB's. I do believe that Tua could be an absolute stud though if he's protected, and the injury aspect is a very real concern. However, I now understand the hype that Tua really is a can't-miss prospect...his accuracy is among the best we've ever seen. We just need to put him in those situations where he can deliver the football and play his game.

    Really, this is the same story of Tannehill, Rosen, Fitzpatrick, Pennington, Henne, Brissett, etc. All had different strengths and weaknesses, all had different ways to win the game if we protected them and put them in good situations. But you can't put a guy out there and tell them to run for their lives, go with plays that don't compliment their strengths and then expect them to win the football game. This is not a "Tua problem" at all...it's a lack of fundamentals from the line to the offensive scheme.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
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  21. Pennington's Limp Arm

    Pennington's Limp Arm Well-Known Member

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    One of Grier’s huge systemic failures has been drafting ‘project’ players with high value picks.

    Noah I and Austin Jackson were said by our own people to be ‘young, raw and inexperienced’ prospects when drafted.
    Grier has been quick to place a lot of chips on ‘unseen’ upside.

    Should have been targeting the blue chip accomplished players who have already proven their form, pedigree and dominance. Not 1st round prospect who still need a couple years to hopefully mature their game. That’s what late/mid round picks are for.

    I think he fell too deep in the rebuild philosophy. He thought we won’t be good for a couple years anyways, so why not take the risk.
    Flawed thinking…. Already Good teams are more in a position to take those risks. We are talent starved and can’t afford to risk 1st rounders.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
  22. Fishhead

    Fishhead Active Member

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    Agree completely. Jackson and Noah should never have been drafted in the first round. Not going to kill him on the Tua pick, but there were many players who could have helped this team at those spots.
     
  23. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Herbert doesnt bust here in Miami… why is that Fitzpatrick and Jacoby both have been able to move the ball more consistently than Tua? As dumb and sloppy as our offense looked yesterday, when Jacoby found his rhythm in the second half, the offense started to move.

    same thing could be said about Fitzpatrick vs Tua last year ..
     
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  24. Fireland

    Fireland Active Member

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    Jacoby moved the ball consistently? :sidelol:

    I shouldn't have said bust but we wouldn't get the Herbert that exists now. The Dolphins offense is putting players in a position right now to look their worst.

    And look what happened with Miami and Tannehill. Look what happened with the Jets and Darnold. Jets who haven't scored a TD the past two games as well on that note. Its not always about the player.
     
  25. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    It sounds as though you're suggesting that Tua simply doesn't have the ability or talent to play at this level. Take a look at the first two seasons for Drew Brees when he was with the Chargers. He was running for his life, getting sacked all the time, the team was terrible, he looked like a guy that was on his way out of the league. They drafted Phillip Rivers, Brees won the job that year anyway and took them to the playoffs. The rest after that is history. Tua needs more time. He also needs a competent offensive line. WE need a franchise quarterback to lead this team. I personally have my doubts about Tua, but it's way too early to give up on him. I still think he gets this season and next to prove what he's got. I know Herbert is setting the league on fire right now and he certainly looks like a star in the making, but so did Carson Wentz his first two years in the league. So did Jared Goff. Both are now on other teams. Meanwhile, Ryan Tannehill is taking the Titans to the playoffs every year. Now if you had to pick one of those three at this very moment, who would it be? And would it have been that same player 4 years ago? All I'm saying is that this situation needs more time.
     
  26. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Watching Drew Brees play in college(I’m in B10 country) and watching Tua in college, Brees has a completely different skill set that helps him overcome his lack of ideal height. Now I would have never guessed he would turn out what he ended up doing with his career but it was pretty clear he had NFL talent. Tua was throwing to all pro WR’s, with all-American OL and RB’s.

    I could understand drafting him in the later half of the first round or the 2nd round but why in the world would you take a short, injury prone QB at #5? I’d expect our GM and scouting department to not buy the hype and do their due diligence. There hasn’t been one point where I thought Tua has been worth the #5. He’s strung together a couple of nice games and doesn’t turn it over but I don’t think he brings anything special to his game outside of having high character.
     
  27. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Strongly disagree. The Chargers OL was terrible last year when he broke the rookie record. That's why they were actually smart and drafted a good LT with one of their top picks. These guys tried a similar plan. How's that going? Grier needs to go.
     
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  28. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. I know it's early, but Phillips hasn't looked good at all. He looks slow and lethargic without great instincs or motor. Other than that, he has looked solid.:no: Good job, Grier.
     
  29. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    So basically what your saying is after year 3 we are not a good team.
     
  30. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    It sure hurt watching Herbert throw 4 tds and beat the chiefs at arrowhead!
     
  31. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    Missing on picks is one thing, and I'm not saying Grier doesn't have to be evaluated on that score, however, to my mind, the more obvious question marks are the positional pick choices. Top of the list this year, for me, is Hunter Long. Despite the fact that the starters on our OL weren't strong, despite the fact that it was his plan to ditch veteran talent on the OL, despite the fact that we had very little depth on the OL, and despite the fact that there were legit OL options still available in the draft when Hunter Long was taken - why did he choose a pass catching tight-end? We already have Gesicki. Maybe he doesn't want to pay him. Maybe he wants to move on to new, cheaper talent and pull of some cap-managing magic by planning ahead. That's nice when you can do it, of course, but when you've got legit needs elsewhere and there's talent you can pick up to meet those needs... cap-magic is a luxury.

    The same can be said for moving up to get Eichenberg and also selecting Jaelen Philips late in the first. I understand the desire for a quality DE, and I'm hoping Eichenberg works out, but Eichenberg might have been available later without trading up, and if he wasn't there were still others who where. We could have taken two decent OL prospects and still had one extra pick than we ended up with. And if Jaelen ends up injured or just average that's also going to be seen as a risky pick.

    Grier, just like our coaches, seems to like stunts and trick plays and pulling of some sort of magic, instead of making good, solid moves.

    Here's to hoping things work out...
     
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  32. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I said it then and I will say it now.If tua has proven one thing its he is made of glass.He got hurt with best talent in college football and he has been hurt already in the nfl missing at least 4 games in 12 possible starts.This guy sadly for him and our fans is not the answer.
     
  33. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I’ll say he did look better against LV. He’s learning a new position and most considered him the top pass rusher in this draft so I’m not gonna knock Grier for that one yet.
     
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  34. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Good teams lose to good teams
    Good teams lose to bad teams

    Buffalo and Vegas are good teams. Miami’s lose to Vegas is more on the offensive play calling that resulted in a safety. Brissett executes the play called. Waddle caught the pass from Brissett. The offense executed the play called. That’s it on the players on the field. That was a serious coaching error on the co-OCs.

    And the Dolphins were STILL able to tie the game and force it into overtime.
     
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  35. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    I never said he moves it consistently, i said he does it at a higher rate than Tua. Tua cant seem to understand or grasp the playbook. His wonderlic score is showing.
     
  36. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Right now with Tua on board we are on the same level as we were with Josh Rosen… i dont think Tua is a better player than Rosen right now, theyre about even.
     
  37. Fireland

    Fireland Active Member

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    Brissett threw 49 times and barely cracked 200 yards. They have no offensive gameplan at this point.
     
  38. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Herbert is bigger, stronger, more agile, much more mobile and athletic. Has a much bigger arm, is more accurate.. his teammates believe in him, they trust him and has acknowledged him as their leader. yea uh he would not be a bust in Miami. Hes everything we hoped Tannehill would be early on.

    by the way Herbert is on his second coaching staff in year 2.
     
  39. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of misses, Parsons is looking like a complete bust. That was another guy we could have had at 12. Can you imagine if we had him on our D
     
  40. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Just using yours to reply to…

    Folks are talking about this player or that player…Tua, Brissett, Herbert. Players do make a difference but one thing many of you are indeed overlooking is the coaching staff.

    Take Buffalo for instance. Who is their OC? Brian Dabol. Why does that name sound familiar? He was OUR OC in 2011. Why is he having success in Buffalo and not in Miami? Josh Allen you say? Well we had Ryan Tannehill and you can’t say Tannehill isn’t a great quarterback. He goes from the train wreck we were to Tennessee and ***BAM*** he was leading the league in virtually every meaningful stat.

    Offensive line coaching? General Manager? Ownership? A combination of one or all?

    Im not taking anything away from players but professional football players are merely executing plays called by their coaches and executing in the manner in which they have been taught to do. If coaches had nothing to do with how a team is performing, there would be no need for them and we’d have nothing but player coaches on the field
     

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