How good was chad pennington for us last season?

Pennington makes the most of his ability, he's a very good game manager and he doesn't turn the ball over very often. Although I still can't help but feel as though he's holding part of our offense back because of his limitations.

 

Never said that brother, my argument has been the same from day 1. Penny's lack of arm strength takes away our long game and players like Ginn have to find a different role, a role that doesn't take advantage of the strongest part of Ginn's game, which is speed, separation and stretching the field. Ginn was drafted to provide that deep threat that would help to keep defenses honest, yet we don't utilize that part of the playbook and teams still cheat against the run. Sure we'll toss it downfield once in a while, but nowhere near what we could if we had a strong armed QB.

A good example of what I'm talking about can be found in the Bills game. The Bills McGee was hobbled and like any good team we tried to take advantage of that. On this play Ginn had McGee beaten, Penny threw the ball with all of his might and Ginn had to almost come to a complete stop and jump for the ball.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35fxXOXBrA8"]YouTube - Ted Ginn Jr. highlights vs bills[/ame]

Two things could have happened here.

1. If McGee had been 100%, he would have been able to break up the pass at the very least, at worst that's an INT, and maybe we don't even attempt it if McGee is healthy. We're not going to have the luxury of putting Ginn on a hobbled CB every week.

2. If we had a strong armed QB he would have been able to hit Ginn in stride and that would have gone for 6. This was the criticism that Penny had in NY, his long range passes are floaters (wounded ducks) and he doesn't have the capablity to make the deep passes on a consistent basis.

Now none of this suggests that Chad is a bad QB, it just highlights a flaw in his game and every NFL player has one. Penny's flaw just so happens to shorten our playbook a bit, those long pass attempts are replaced with short to mid range passes and Ginn has to adjust his game accordingly.

Hence, Penny handicaps our offense (deep game)

 

Cleo Lemon wasn't accurate, Beck had no time for plays to develop, and Ginn didn't play with Culpepper, Feeley or Frerotte, so those comparisons don't work. I understand what you're getting at, but those QB's didn't have a true deep threat with Ginn's deep ability.

The long ball not only adds a dangerous element to the offense, but it also stretches the field and keeps the defenses honest, which opens up alot of room for the running game to flourish. It's not just the deep passes on their own, it's the overall impact that they have on the offense. Being able to stretch the field can change things dramatically for every facet of the offense, that's something that we're lacking at the moment.

 

True, but first downs are easier to come by when you can open up holes in the defense.

Or I could have said, "Deep passes add a dangerous element, also known as touchdowns".

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one brother, neither one is budging and your stubbornness ain't helping.

 

I agree with padre. A strong arm isn't everything. Penny rescued us from the wasteland, he's alright in my book.

 

This will all sort itself out over time. We should have gotten a quarterback who is accurate and has a strong arm before we got a speed receiver. If you look at it in those terms, then we should have gotten an offensive line before we got the quarterback. The teams decisions and choices have been so bad that the team had to be torn down before it was built from the bottom up. I think we are fortunate to have Pennington to guide the team while the young quarterback(s) are developed. He may not have the strong arm we have all missed since Marino left, (and I feel Marino spoiled us in that respect). I feel like Pennington makes up for his short comings with leadership, intellegence and accuracy. Just what this team needed at this time considering all of the terrible luck we have had with quarterbacks. There have been plenty of strong armed quarterbacks who were lacking in the other qualities so it could be worse but thats JMO.

 

We get 1000X more from Penny than he costs us in terms of ability as a QB.

 

Man... I hope Ginn take ANOTHER step in his progress as a receiver. KC Joyner was pointing out that Ginn's metrics already had him in the top 20 in the league.

I could see Ginn making a LOT of highlight reel plays this year. Add that to the Wildcat, and Ronnie Brown, and Pat White.. Man, this is a highlight reel offense.

Should be a "Jacked Up" hitting defense too with Wilson, Bell, Davis and the like in the secondary.

 

Yeah Pennington has a suspect arm. However his accuracy and efficiency are insane. If he had the strong arm to get with all his other gifts he'd be HoF'er easily. it would be nice if he had a stronger arm I'll take what he does offer us gladly. This is the most stability we've had at QB since Danny left. Other than Pennington all we can look back at in the last decade is such "greats" as Jay Fieldler and Daunte Culpepper. And those are the high points in our passing game.

We have a great thing going for us in Pennington. Sure he has his limitations but he's the best QB we've had in a decade. I can live with what we've got for the time being.

 

Why is it that when someone says.. correctly IMO, that Pennington's arm limits the offense, that everyone feels the need to go to war. In this thread, in the context of this discussion, it is simply an observation, not a condemnation. That statement can be true without it being an attack upon Penny, and what he brings. He is the consummate General. He doesn't have overwhelming force or talent in his surrounding arsenal, but he does have a quick mind, some very good skill sets, and a OC that knows how to use Penny's talents to "our" advantage.

I could not care less what the "stats" say, Pennington does not have a long ball game. How many times did he hit a "go route" in stride.. once? That doesn't mean he's a bad qb, it doesn't really mean anything other than what it is, a limitation. Penny has no dazzling long ball, but all his "other" skills render this "limitation" significantly less important.. He.. and our play calls, overcome this issue pretty smoothly. Like everyone else, I want to see the "bomb".. and we will.. but it will come at the expense (probably) of the turnover ratio.

Pennington's skill sets allow us to compete against teams with better talent and overcome them in a methodical mistake free way. Penny, on a 15 play drive, doesn't often wreck it with a bad decision in the red zone.. something we WILL see when a youngster steps up... it comes with the turf.

"I" am perfectly happy with Chad Pennington, and hope that "this" year is his best EVER. I hope our backups continue to improve and put "real" pressure on Penny to get it done, and that they will be ready when Penny goes down.. and it WILL happen. It will be then that we will get that razzle dazzle long ball.. and the associated bad decisions we have been wanting.

I see all this as a good thing. Penny has taken us places that we hardly dreamed possible after 1-15. Ted Ginn has been forced to learn how to work the underneath routes, something he may not have learned as well if all he is was "just" long ball receiver. We have discovered several very promising possession type receivers who's developement continues. A win/win across the board in my eyes.

Pennington is going to look pretty darned good this year with an improved oline, running game, and red zone targets... I can hardly wait.

 

Pennington is not only our starter, the player-coach of our offense, he is an unheralded & unrecognized Franchise QB.
Penny is obviously at the top of his game & one of the best to captain a team in the NFL.

Chad returns in great physical condition & a healed shoulder.
No one is saying he has a rocket arm. He does not. However, he has a deep pass when his shoulder is healed & he has to to set his feet & throw. How often do you go deep? 10%, probably closer to 5% of the time. if the the deep pass were the ticket, many QB's that went undrafted would be in the NFL today. Griese's "best' completion percentage was 63% in in 1978. Marino's best was 64.2% in 1984 Pennington's was 67.4% last season. Think about it.

Every QB faces injury, every time he takes the field.
Two things:
1) he's healthy, has the Orca-5 in front of him, the Tandem from Hell to burn up the turf, WildCaPat to buy more time, an improved WR Corp, all these things bode well for the Pennington Renaissance & his longevity in the sport.
2) he's earned the right to compete for the big enchilada. he is our returning starter & will not go quietly into the night. he is a pro-bowl & franchise QB.
depending on this season, Pennington may very well prove to be our ticket to the SouperBowl in 2010.
Go Fish!

 

Well, thought out Padre...

I know it has come down to a conclusion that we cannot really threaten to strech the field with Penny. So there might be more to the FO plan's for this team...

Now they did not pick Ginn, so is he on the bubble when his contract runs out? Or they assume that Henne will be heir to the thrown, as he is learning from one of the most effecient QBs of all time? We know that Henne can throw hard and long, but we don't know the other intangibles...

I think we are overlooking that as the trade off...As L2G says, the offensive verticle threat is limited, but Chad's P's training of Chad H does not go un-noticed, or is it?

When all is said and done in a year or so, and Chad H is given the opportunity, with a pretty good Offensive team, he must produce, or else all what this FO has done in the past few years, will have had the same results as those over this past decade...

So IMO, Chad P is here as the teacher, if he helps us win a few more games, than that is the "icing on the cake"...

 

Well this has the ring of the games against the Ravens...

We had no effective threat of the passing game, their Defense was overwhelming, but that was in part of our OL, since we could not block efficiently for our run game, we had to put extra blockers in, and when that happens???

You guessed it, no spreading the Defense, and now you cannot achieve that element of surprise...That is what a great run Defense does to a not so good run Offense...

 

Its pretty amazing what Pennington did for us last year no question. We would have been picking in the top 5 or so if he hadn't been there last season. I think when people start questioning how far he can take us or if he limits our offense its because of performances like the one against the Ravens. Our team as a whole didn't perform very well but honestly Pennington looked helpless against them. I hope we can put together some more wrinkles to overcome the better defenses in the league but without a legit longball threat its going to be hard. Teams can stack against the run and push their defensive backfield closer to the line to take away the short game and we are pretty much screwed.

I think Pennington overcomes a lot of his short comings but he may not be able to beat the great defenses in the league in the playoffs. I hope I'm wrong about that. He's still far and away the best option we have this year and he deserves a ton of respect for what he did last season for us.

 

It has nothing to do with how many times you throw deep, it's about making the defenses respect that element of your passing game. Right now cornerbacks and safeties aren't concerned with the ball going behind them, that means that they only have to concern themselves with what is infront of them (tightening the defense). When we play the Pats, each of us holds our breath because at any single moment the ball might go up in the air and Moss will be in the endzone for 6. The Pats, like them or despise them, have that element that keeps defenses honest. We don't.

I have, I think that it's a misleading statistic.

Penningotn is a very accurate QB, efficient might be the better word, he does a great job with the tools that he has. Chad, a QB who hasn't been able to stay healthy throughout his career (played 16 games only twice in his 9 year career), a QB who has never thrown for more than 22 TD's in a season (he averages 11), a QB who before last year never threw for more than 3,300 yards (he averages less than 2,000 per season) is not in the same league as Marino. True injuries have slowed Penny down, but Marino dealt with injuries as well.

So as far as that stat goes, look at it this way. What would we have said to a Jets fan if they had come here 2 years ago and said....

"Griese's "best' completion percentage was 63% in in 1978. Marino's best was 64.2% in 1984 Pennington's was 67.4% last season. Think about it.".

We would have laughed them right off the board. I agree that Pennington is a very good game manager, that he does very good with the tools that God gave him, but my opinion of him hasn't changed one bit since he's put on the aqua and orange. He still has the same limitations that he had as a Jet and he is in no way comparible to Marino. The players are different, the offenses are different, and the success that they've found is different.

Marino put up his stats without a running game, teams knew that we weren't going to be able to run the ball down their throats and that we were going to try and beat them in the air, and Marino still broke almost every conceivable passing record. Pennington's abilities are limited, defenses dare him to beat them in the air and his numbers are...well...average. Penny is a dink and dunk QB, that's all he'll really ever be. It's easier to have a higher completion percentage when you are throwing short and mid range passes. He's a very good leader behind center, he plays his heart out, but he is what he is and that hasn't changed since he slipped on the Phins uni.

I hope we win a SB with Chad as well, but I'm not as confident that our OL is improved, that the wildcat is going to be as effective as it was last year or that our D is going to be able to get to the QB as much as we did last season. Here's to hoping though.

 

Chad is not a HoF QB like Marino. Those guys are incredibly rare. He is however a franchise QB. He's a go to guy who can drive incredible time eating drives down the field. Teams know he doesn't have a deep arm. They know they can cheat against the run and the short pass. And guess what? He still gets the job done. We have something very, very good in Pennington. Is he 2nd coming of Marino? No. And honestly we probably won't see another guy like him. But what he can do is something no other QB has done for us in years. He can win games.

 

Agreed, that's never been my issue with him. My issue is, and always has been, that our offense isn't as dynamic as it could be. Talented players are being misused or hampered because of Chad's limitations, that's all I'm saying. Ginn isn't able to spread the field and use his speed, Ronnie is being focused on more as defenses cheat the run, our offense is limited because opposing defenses don't respect Chad's arm strength.

 

Pennington has got to be the most underappreciated QB ever to play the game. I love the guy and can't wait to watch him under center for our team in 2009. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go vote for him in survivor!

 

To me Penny is a slight improvement over Fiedler, someone who might get us into the SB if we get lucky and play some good but not great defenses but simply not good enough to win it all. I really think Henne is going to get a shot to unseat Penny this year and I don't think he has to be as good as Penny but he will have to be close. Now that we went after receivers it would be a shame to waste the opportunity to stretch the field by starting Penny. We have new toys and I believe we will have a new QB to take advantage of them. I believe Parcells and company arr looking at next year as our SB run so it would make sense to give Henne his experience this year

 

On paper we might have the receivers to go vertical. Ginn certainly but turner and hartline have the ability to work the ten to twenty yard area effectively. Parcells wants to run but to really run you need the corners to back off the line and the safeties to stay out of the box.

 

Bess to me is an inside ten yard receiver. Classic slot guy, more horizontal than vertical. Send him on slants. Turner can be sent on more mid range routes and like you said can use his body to fight and angle for balls. Hartline is camarillo. You can do both with him. As for penny, living in new york, I've seen his entire career. He is what he is a jeff garcia type with less scrambling ability but more accuracy

 

Its interesting to me but I don't think we have any weak links on our team any more. Maybe ILB but I think we might have someone step up this year. Maybe torbor. Next year its all about adding play makers and difference makers

 

Agree completely on the garcia/penny comparison

 

Solai caused a fumble against the ravens in the wild card game. I thought he came on last year. We'll need to get a younger version of porter and ferguson next year but we should be fine this yr

 

Agree on the special teams

 

Ginn, turner definitely and two out of hartline camarillo or bess. I'll go with camarillo and bess but I could see hartline beating out camarillo

 

But Ginn was drafted for a specific reason, that was to be the guy who was our deep threat, the guy who spread the defense and opened the field for other players and the running game. That isn't happening, now he's being asked to change his game and people are judging him on what they feel he should be doing (deep threat). If Penny is the QB and Ginn doesn't light it up next year, I'm going to be banging my head on the keyboard in frustration with the negative threads. We really won't be able to fully judge Teddy until he is able to utilize his talents.

Which year, out of curiosity?

I'm not as familiar with Henning's past, but that's an isolated example. Look at what happened last year against the Ravens as someone already pointed out, or even with Ronnie's first few years in the league. When you don't have a good OL and you don't have a deep passing game, the running game has an uphill battle on their hands.

Absolutely, but just because a Qb has a strong arm, that doesn't necessarily mean that he will be an INT machine. You have to find a balance between the two, it shouldn't be an absolute in either direction (accuracy/arm strength).

As far as Henne, there is nothing that says he would be an improvement, not until we can see him out on the field. Even if we saw him display a big arm in practice, opposing defenses aren't going to respect him until he can beat them out on the field. When I talk about a strong armed QB opening up our offense, I'm talking in a general sense, I'm not trying to imply that Henne is the better of the two. He's the next guy in line, so we'll have to see how he does.

 

Still fun to watch.........from the decision to throw and the actual release of the ball is just mezmorizing.....fastest gun ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Noone will ever have a bigger competitor!!!!!