How important is the tight end position to this offense?

You mean his 3 compared to our 7? Yeah, I'd be furious.

 

Rodgers was sacked 51 times last season. And he's probably one of the most mobile QBs in the league.

 

And Marino's team was designed to pass often.

 

I don't buy for a second the concept of a Tight End not being an important position in the offense. They simply run a 2-TE offense too often for that to be the case, and it's not like they aren't running routes. Anthony Fasano isn't treated like a tackle eligible.

They are looking for a guy like Jason Witten, Todd Heap, Kevin Boss, etc. Guys who can throw a block as well as catch. That's what they want, but given how they've dealt with David Martin, Kory Sperry, etc. they'd be willing to deal with an oversized WR as well, but they're not going to pay a premium for one.

 

KC, Atlanta, Pitt, Oakland, Houston, Minne, Philly, Tenne, Jets, Pats.

What 2 things do these teams have in common?

1st: They're currently the top 10 rushing teams in the league.

2nd: 9/10 greatly utilize their TE in the passing game. I didn't include Bo Scaife with Tenn (although he's good for 400-500 yards).

 

How often do those teams use max protect?

 

Most of his sacks were in the 1st half of the season when GB had one of the worst Olines in the NFL. They solidified a good deal in the 2nd half, hence not having a need to start Bulaga right now. It's "what have you done for me lately", and at this rate he'll only be sacked 16 times this season which is pretty impressive.

<So let's say Aaron's mobility has offset 4 sacks> well then he would still be tied with Henne at 7 which makes the GB/Rodgers excuse null and void IMO. Including Rodgers's mobility, he's being sacked the same or less than Henne while still being able to use his pass catching TE to his advantage.

I'd like to ask Chad what he prefers: a TE for max protect..... or a seam busting one to throw to.

Lex blocks well in pass pro IIRC. Why not use him back there more?

 

So what you're saying is Fasano NEVER runs routes?

 

Lex does block well. Who would you take out for him? Ronnie? Whats the point?

If you don't think the GB scheme greatly increases the pressure put on their QB, I don't know what you're watching. They end up having the move the pocket a lot. They still have to compensate for the shortcomings of their scheme. Rodgers and McCarthy will both say so much.

Ask any coach what the biggest issue with the spread offense is, and they'll say the shortened edges.

Now I'm not exactly sure what you are debating. The thread asks what the role of the TE in Dan Henning's offense is. The fact that we ran the most max protect in the NFL last season should give a good idea of what the answer probably is.

 

No, he does. He's a TE. If they wanted someone to solely be a blocker, they'd just put in another tackle. But he certainly blocks a lot more than many TEs in the NFL.

 

You do realize that he has specifically said that he is more comfortable under center than he is in the shotgun, right?

 

I don't see the point in spending so much on the OL if you're not going to trust them to block.

 

To give Ronnie a rest and b/c Lex has good hands...... and if we're not using Ronnie in the passing game, then why not let someone else come in? Just a thought.

Doesn't max protect make us more 1 dimensional or obvious? I'd be sending more blitzers if I knew the TE was used mostly for blocking and posed little receiving threat. Personally, I want a TE like Gronkowski who would allow us to better disguise what we're doing..... or a guy we can move around the field to create mismatches. The Jets moved Keller around and it prevented us from blitzing a lot etc didn't it?

 

If that is the case then Henning should be replaced. I've defended him a lot, but I'd look to replace any coach that isn't able to adapt is system to his players.

And that is a good point about Brown, so you may be right. I've attributed that thus far to an over evaluation of RW rather than an inability to use the back in the passing game. Before this season, RW was getting an average of 30+ receptions per year. I keep hoping that Brown replaces RW in that role. But if Henning is as rigid and limited as you believe than we should go in another direction.

 

Just like Brandon Marshall--- the threat of the big play from a TE can have an impact. If Fasano posed a threat catching the ball, then defenses would be on their toes more, would they not? It would also create more "space" too, no? Even if we're not throwing to him, defenses would still have to be prepared for it, which is effective all by itself. That's what I personally want..... I want a defense to not know what the heck is coming at them on any given play.

It would also be nice to have a playmaking TE to dump it off to during max protect.

 

I don't think its necessarily an issue, both are good in pass protection. I don't really think Brown needs rest however.

Max protect doesn't necessarily make you 1 dimensional or obvious. Any time you blitz, it just becomes a numbers game. Its just a choice of whether you keep extra blockers, to give the QB more time to read to the coverage, or whether you send guys out and require your QB to make a quicker read.

I don't have a problem with Gronkowski at all. I think he is the type of TE that this team wants. But at the same time, if he were on this team he would be doing what he does for NE now: blocking and running short and occasionally intermediate routes. A few receptions every game, and an occasional touchdown.

ETA: not being able to protect the passer also can make you 1 dimensional as well.

 

Of course. Thats certainly effective. But its not the only effective way. Max protect schemes can also be effective. Sending your TEs out on routes can backfire, just like max protect can backfire. Its not one way or another. But our coaches obviously have a preference, just like plenty of other coaches have their own preference. It really comes down to execution. Considering how well we have been against the blitz this year, I don't have a problem with how they're using the TE's in the passing game.

 

This is where I respectfully disagree. If we have Fasano in for max protect, then I feel it allows defenses the chance to attempt to dictate the game b/c Anthony poses little threat for the pass. Why wouldn't a defense constantly bring more pressure in this scenario when our TE doesn't worry them?

We're the 7th most sacked team, so I'm not sure if "max protect" translates to "max effective". If Fasano were good enough to split out (considering Marshall is on the field), how often would we be seeing a heavy rush on those plays?

I'd love to see a LB taken out of the box to cover a TE....... and then watch Ronnie gash it between the tackles behind our hogs....... or even a S covering him so we can try and get Brandon in some 1 on 1's.

 

I completely agree.... which is why I'd love to have a versatile TE who poses a receiving threat who can allow us to do both (protect & air it out). Isn't that the best way to keep defenses guessing?

As far as execution.... I agree again, which is why I want a TE who also allows us to execute to a high degree in the passing game (which Fasano does not).

I don't have a huge problem with how we're using the TE, but I would like to have one who CAN aid the passing game better when he is thrown to.... and who forces defenses to protect the entire field. Like DJ stresses, it's all about creating space, and IMO the threat alone helps create space. I'd also like a TE who's better in the redzone and can consistently bail out Henne in time of need.

And don't get me wrong; I'm not saying we should become a west coast style offense either. IMO Fasano doesn't maximize the full capability of the TE position. I'd like a guy that does, so when his number IS called, he's more efficient.

 

Paul...... as long as it's just your nips my friend.

 

To be fair, we used max protect the most in the NFL, but its not like we used it on every down. Point being, that the TE can be a receiver in our offense, but he must be able to block adequately. You can't assume he'll be blocking every play, but you can't assume you'll be able to blow by him when you bring pressure. When you have a TE that isn't a good blocker, the defense can dictate just as easily. It works both ways.

Having a TE split out means you either are taking Davone Bess off the field, or you're running the spread offense. Now I'm a fan of the spread, but at the same time, our personnel can't run it. Thats not just the TE. Thats our OL and our QB.

 

To be fair, Henne was wet behind the ears and still learning, so I think we had to run max protect by default, no?

Once the game has finally slowed down for him etc (as it progressively seems to be happening), I don't think there will be as much need for max protect..... so why not begin preparing for the future now?

 

So far this year he hasn't been great in the shotgun. He's completed 6 of 10 attempts for 4 yards, no TDs or INTs for 1 1st down and 1 sack. His rating out of the shotgun is 68.8.

 

That's assuming the TE isn't an effective blocker which I never implied. I'm speaking of a TE who can block about on par with Fasano but poses a much greater threat receiving.

I'm not saying to run the spread per say. I'm saying to create occasional mismatches by having a TE who can play inside 1 play with the versatility to line up outside on the next while the same defensive personnel on the field.

5 Oline, Henne, TE, RB, Marshall, Hartline, Bess. Where is Bess off the field? All we're doing is playing around with a 3 WR formation.


ADDED: How can our personnel not run it? Heck, we ran a 4 WR spread last season with 2 TE's and a FB split wide. We also split Polite out at times, so how can we not do it with a TE instead? I'd think occasionally running it with a premium TE, Marshall, Hart, and Bess would be a major upgrade.

 

I just want the best 11 guys on the field as possible..... and IMO Fasano does NOT provide us the best 11. He should be our #2 receiving TE.

Considering how important the TE position has become, this should be enough to warrant an upgrade.

 

I do think that one of Henne's biggest weaknesses has been his lack of pocket awareness. So that may have required more max protect. Also the reads are easier when you have fewer receivers out. The amount of max protect may have been due to Henne rather than Henning's inability to adapt. I see improvement in Henne's pocket awareness and reading ability so maybe we'll need less max protect going forward.

 

I don't have any stats for max protect. The shotgun stats came from here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/8834/passing_splits.html

 

Chad Henne is not accurate enough to play in a spread offense. Not only that, but he becomes much less accurate when he can't get his feet set. If you don't give our OL help, there's going to be pressure on Henne.

Which is probably why you saw our TEs getting a lot more catches in 08. Pennington is much more accurate, and you can live with him being pressured.

 

Henne is better against the blitz than he is against shell coverage. He also has been very good in the single back and 4 or more WR formations. In those formations he has over a 90 rating.

 

Hopefully the Pats defensive backs are as bad as advertised, because I can guess what kind of coverage they'll show all night on Monday.

 

Spot on.

 

Good point about the lack of passes to Ronnie Brown- dude has great hands that are going largely unused. I would say Ricky Williams as well, although the caveat there is that his hands aren't as good as RB's.

The offense is boring and uninspired imo, sprinkled in with some largely ineffective wildcat- at least they passed out of it once, about time. But is it a better option than Henne to Marshall or a screen pass to RB against a very aggressive Jets defense? Side note- thank God we got Marshall or we wouldn't even be able to compete with the Jets.

As to the TE position- Rafael was dead on earlier. And after keying on Kyle Rudolph for a bit and seeing the 95 yard TD- thank you no to him in the 1st round. He looks like too much of a plodder to me, would be an inefficient replacement for Fasano, not enough of an upgrade. We need an Aaron Hernandez type, a Keller, Gresham, if I recall the name correctly a Shawn King type, 4th rounder from a couple of years ago. In other words a secondary TE who can run like the wind and challenge ILB's and Safeties deep up the middle.

But back to your point- not throwing to RB is a waste. Here's a thought- given Ronnie Brown's size, hands, speed and blocking ability, and the fact that we have Ricky Williams at RB- why not use Ronnie occasionally as that deep threat TE? Have Ricky and Ronnie in the backfield then just split Ronnie out pre snap. Just an idle thought.