How many other NFL GMs have had the opportunity to rebuild their own mess?

*Sigh* Chill and go back to the Dolphins Survivor thread man!

IMO He gets this year and next. He hasn't done anything to show me he shouldn't be here nor that he should. I'm giving the man a chance without Parcells looking over his shoulder. BP was a horrible mistake, and I said so at the time. I don't believe that man has a mind for the modern NFL.

 

My thinking is the only ones who don't know what he's responsible for are us, Ross and Co must know specifics on his evaluation record..It seems like Philbin and Ireland are on the same page, so it looks like there was a renewed commitment.

 

Why th !#\% do we have to have the same damn discussion for the millionth time about Parcells and Ireland? Don't you guys get tired of writing the same stuff over and over?
1) we are rebuilding now
2) there is zero proof on who is to fully blame for many of the mistakes we made years ago
3) it's likely not "a" or "b", but blame to be shared by both

Move on. Focus on the present and the future. Stop friggin whining

 

I think if people are going to continue to blame the Parcells years on Ireland, they need to once and for all prove beyond a shadow of doubt Ireland didn't have to follow Parcells blueprint or just stop the declarations.

I want proof and if its so obvious, then I should have been provided some by now. I haven't.

 

This is ridiculous. Pat White wasn't any kind of Parcells blueprint player, yet he is blamed completely on Parcells.

Jeff Ireland has been a part if every single personnel decision since he has been here. Unless you believe that Ireland disagreed with the man who trained him, mentored him and got him this job on virtually every decision over the last 4 years, then Ireland is fully to blame for everything that has gone on.

 

I ask for proof and you rant. I guess i should post the definition of proof.

 

I think the more pertinent question is when will someone who thinks Jeff Ireland is an awful GM actually do the research and see what real life NFL successes and rates of success look like?

 

I think Ross gives him this season. Not next. If we don't progress this season, Ireland is most likely gone.

 

I think you're right, I'm just not sure if the progression he judges him on is wins or not. I think if Tanny shows this season he's the QB for the next decade, Ireland survives regardless of record.

 

Tyrion Lannister

#FootballGameOfThrones

 

You realize you just told me I don't need proof. That's like saying facts are pointless.

Those aren't necessarily fails either. Let's say your dream came true and Ireland was fired (not for factual reasons cause you hate those). And lets a new GM was here this whole offseason and he made the same trades for getting rid of Marshall and Davis, that wouldn't be a fail on the new guy right?

 

many times i thought ireland should be fired but if a new gm means cleaning house and new coaches and new offense and defense, then i am willing to give him another year or 2.

 

Yet you can't prove that Ireland is a poor old puppet, manipulated and forced in to every draft move.

 

In 2010, Parcells gave control to Irish and left the day to day operations, and took on a consulting role. It was officially reported. He quit and was off the team well before last season started. So is Irish STILL off the clock? When does his tenure begin? BP was our VP of football Ops. Irish has been GM for 5 years. So when can we say he starts? We went 0-7 without Bill Parcells here and Irish as our GM. So when does the Irish era officially begin? Just curious.

 

if we can keep everything and get a new gm to get us better groceries, i am all for it.

 

"Thank you sir may I have another"

 

It really is amazing how bad Ireland is at his job, but somehow remains an NFL GM. Looking forward to when he's canned.

 

No explanation is needed b/c we never traded a 1st round pick for a 2nd.

Will any subjective Ireland hater explain how you believe a 1st round pick who doesn't perform to his 1st round potential is still perceived to have 1st round status?


You realize that a player's original draft status means absolutely nothing in the NFL, right?...yet you treat it as if it's some type of birth right. It's about "What have you done for me lately" rather than "What round were you drafted in 4 seasons ago".

 

i just wish the nfl was a democracy and we could write an nfl owner like a congressman. lmao. but its not. i would try it though if i had ross' info.

 

It's not even a little bit complicated.

Vontae Davis didn't live up to the value if a first round draft pick, but he was a reasonably successful pick. I realize you're highly unlikely to do the research yourself, so here's the 2009 first round.

How many of those players would go for a 1st round pick if traded today? Matthew Stafford would go for more than one 1st, and Clay Matthews likely would, but after that? Probably not any of them, and I think that's a first round with above-average success historically.

You also can't say Davis was unproductive in the context of that group, either. There are easily 15+ players who have been worse than he has on that list, which makes him very conservatively a pretty average pick in that first round.

 

Blah blah blah

Your agenda is out of control. Even in light of the facts presented [that this was essentially Philbin's decision] you're still chirping along as though it's Ireland's doing. I take it you must want Philbin fired for moving Vontae, correct? I mean, you'd have to or else you'd look like a biased hypocrite.
Marshall was causing problems, and Philbin didn't want that on his team or around his potential shiny new QB. It's almost like you think players don't have to be accountable for their actions and can act and do whatever the f they want w/o recourse.

Judging this trade as a "fail" despite not knowing who the 2nd & 6th picks become nor how they'll turn out = FAIL.

WOW, it shocks me that you'd think trading Jason Allen in 2010 for a 2nd, or Vernon Carey last year for a 2nd = fail.

Perhaps we should stock pile all the useless first round players around the league b/c you've wisely shown us how championships are won by draft status rather than field performance.

 

No, reasonable people don't scream and yell that something is true or not if they don't know it to be true. Ireland and Parcells weren't partners. Ireland worked for Parcells. My boss does thing I disagree with all the time, I suspect I'm far form alone in that. I still do what I'm told as is understood by an employer/employee relationship.

Well, you made my point for me. I don't think Ireland is fixing his mistakes, he is fixing the mistakes he made following Parcells blueprint, which doesn't really make them his mistakes.

I'm just blown away that so many people completely disregard the boss/employee dynamic and instead insert some insane Ireland is a supervilian fantasy.

 

I didn't say he was puppet. Please link to where I said that......

I said he had to follow Parcells blueprint. I have no proof, I do have evidence and have posted it a number of times.

I've also said that I don't know for a fact one way or the other, which is precisely why I can't blame him for those years. last year and this year, those are what I can comfortably fault or praise him with. Why does that make me the unreasonable one?

 

Bingo, you have nailed the problem right square on the head. The retaining of Ireland as the teams GM is the major problem I have with Ross. I believe Ross wants to win, I just think he has put his faith in the wrong GM.

I see the trading of Marshall and Davis as merely a way for Ireland to try and convince Ross to keep him after this season. He will merely tell Ross that he needs time to rebuild the secondary and draft some WR's and he will probably convince Ross that trading for Marshall, and drafting Davis was all the fault of Parcells.

I just hope Ross is smart enough to see that Ireland has always been a major part of the problem and that he is certainly not part of the solution.

 

Those aren't the only 2 options, and neither are the best options.
You offered 2 loaded options that are ridiculously skewed to align with your hatred of Ireland. That's it.

Beyond your biased oversimplification, this list is the actual answer:
A. We needed a starting corner.
B. We couldn't take one at 2a b/c that was reserved for Parcells' Pat White pick, so we had to take one in the 1st.
C. Davis represented great value.
D. Davis was the best choice among the 3 candidates (Vontae, Alphonso Smith, Darius Butler), so Ireland and/or Parcells get credit for picking the best one.
E. Ireland & Parcells aren't Vontae's babysitter. He's responsible for his own actions. There were some pre-draft question marks but there wasn't a major red flag that screamed "Stay Away At All Costs" and weignored it.
F. Ireland is not a coach, nor did he hire the coaches responsible for both developing Vontae and getting through to him. Other coaches around the league have succeeded in more extreme cases.


So, Ireland and/or Parcells identified the best talent in this case, but the coaching staff and the player failed to develop it.
In the end, we traded a talented player for barely less than we paid for him after getting 3 years of use from him, and we did it b/c the player, not Ireland, put the team in the position to trade him.

 

......So the 3rd option and best option is:

At the time of the '09 draft, Ireland and/or Parcells correctly chose the best corner at the pick based on the perceived talent available, but through no fault of Ireland's the player failed to grow up as hoped, and the player's inability to grow up made him less valuable than the day he was drafted.


Monstblitz, so tell me, which choice is it:
You think Vontae is a talented player and was worth our #1 pick at the time
or
You thought he was a terrible and extremely risky pick

 

Honestly this topic isn't even worthy of debate anymore. It's a foregone conclusion.

 

Nice try. This will be the next big argument in Dolphins land for years.

 

It's already been a huge debate for years, where ya been?

 

Exactly. This debate won't stop until Ireland is finally canned like he deserves to be.

 

"And which is it? Did Ireland either
a.) Trade away a talented CB for too little; or,
b.) Did Ireland fail to properly evaluate Vontae Davis when he spent a first round pick on him and he really is a "3rd" CB as many have said today."

How about he drafted a CB with the potential to be great, but whose apathy caused him to fall short of that success?

 

Well, gotta give Philbin credit on not wanting to sign Flynn, Wilson beat him out.?, can't forget that.