How many other NFL GMs have had the opportunity to rebuild their own mess?

lol Ya I guess I didn't need to mention Long, Wake, Bess, Soliai, Starks, etc.

 

I'm confused, I thought we could only blame Ireland for the last two years, since Parcells left. Because according to all the Ireland supporters on here, Ireland was not responsible for any of the players drafted or signed while Parcells was with the Dolphins. Therefore Long, Bess, Soliai, Wake, and any other player signed or drafted prior to Parcells leaving the organization can not be credited to Ireland. Especially if Parcells takes all the bleame for the bad draft picks and free agent signings while he was with the team.

 

Ok, let's accept the idea that Nicks is worth a 1st round pick(I don't agree, and in my completely unsupported fantasy role-playing scenario Jerry Reese would actually shriek like a little girl if offered a 1st).

That makes...three players from the 2009 draft that would go for a 1st round pick in 2012 if traded? Well hell, that changes everything!

You don't seem to even the slightest bit understand what I'm explaining.

Those three players(more Odrick and Pouncey than Davis) represent better than average outcomes in their respective round in their respective draft. They are successful outcomes in that context. But you wouldn't trade a 1st round pick for any of them.

Nor would you trade a first round pick for very conservative 85%+ of the outcomes of any first round historically. Does that mean only 15% of 1st round picks are successful? No.

 

Any bad team with a bad GM can name 4-5 quality players on their team.....

Cleveland Browns....Horrible team............Joe Thomas, Trent Richardson, Joe Haden, Josh Cribbs, Gregg Little, etc....

See?

 

This is really ****ing stupid argument tactic.

Has the individual person that you are arguing with both credited Ireland for Parcells-era successes while using Parcells presence to insulate him from criticism on the bad picks? Can you identify anyone who has done that?

No? Then ease up on that straw-man, he didn't do nothin' to you.

 

You seem to be hypocritical in your judgement of players and draft picks of the Miami Dolphins with respect to the rest of the NFL

And I'm sorry, but I really can't get past the fact that you don't agree that Hakeem Nicks would net a 1st round pick. That's telling to me. Because if Hakeem Nicks was a Jeff Ireland selection and had that same production as a Miami Dolphin he'd be the poster child for the people that think Jeff Ireland is a good GM

My point: Take Brandon Pettigrew. Put him and his production on the Miami Dolphins and label him a Jeff Ireland selection. I believe, all of the sudden, many people that are pro-Jeff Ireland, think Brandon Pettigrew represents better than average outcome in his respective round. Same goes for Kenny Britt, Michael Oher, BJ Raji, Brian Cushing, etc.

 

It's pretty telling when the only move the Ireland apologists can point to, is a player that half the league wanted, and then we have to act as if he was some hidden gem that nobody knew of and Ireland took a gigantic risk on...

Matt Millen hit on a couple players too. Does that make him a great GM. No. He was a terrible GM that got lucky a couple times like all terrible GMs, like Ireland, do.

 

Many individuals on the forum have stated that Ireland should only be judged on the players he has signed and drafted since Parcells left the Dolphins. I have always taken the position that Ireland, as the teams GM since 2008, should get credit for the players who have worked out and the blame for those players who have not worked out.

Therefore he has been the GM for five years and the Dolphins have gone backwards every year since their one winning season in 2008. He is a failed GM and I don't think any other owner in the NFL, except Ross, would have retained him after seeing what a lousy job he has done in the last five drafts and free agency periods. After this season, I am sure you will be jumping on the , "fire Ireland bandwagon". Either that or you are only defending him because you are a relative of Ireland and you like seeing him make all his money for being one of the worst GM's in the NFL.

 

Bess is average. Soliai was drafted by Mueller. Starks was a good player in Tennesee. Long was the top pick in the draft. Are we about call Matt Millen an extraordinary talent evaluator for hitting on Megatron? I didn't think so.

 

All Parcells, remember? Or did Ireland only make the GOOD moves? And LOL at Soliai. He was drafted by Mueller.

 

Ummm...

 

[Insert magic sound] Hakeem Nicks is now worth a 1st round pick in trade in my eyes.

Now please focus on my actual argument.

That's not a point, it's you saying that you think I might be biased without having anything you think is good enough to point forth as proof.

 

That's the typical Ireland apologist logic. Mention any bad move, we have no idea how much Ireland factored into it, but definitely mostly Parcell's fault. But they sure are quick to praise Ireland for the very, very few good moves.

 

No, I have no proof that you would think, for example, Michael Oher represents better than average outcome for his draft selection, had he been an Ireland selection.

But yes, that's what I'm saying. Based on your defense of many other Ireland picks.

 

Evaluating doesn't include deciding who to re-sign? lol

 

If someone is working under a double standard, by all means, call them out as individuals. That's reasonable.

But the fact that I've never, ever seen that done suggests it isn't happening, and instead you're conflating the opinions of two different groups of people as being the same people because they all disagree with you.

For the record, I don't think it matters. Your assessment of Ireland shouldn't be dramatically different if you count Parcells time here or not.

 

And that's completely specious given that you're not actually at any point utilizing logic, facts, or even a decent counter-argument to content that my defense of other Ireland picks is wrong.

At a certain point I would tend to think it's easier to just actually come up with a decent argument against what I'm claiming then coming up with increasingly convoluted ways to avoid that.

 

Answer this question though: Were those Parcells moves or Ireland moves?

 

Please name me a person who has done this.

 

You resign your best players. What exactly is so difficult about that? Resigning a guy like Soliai for relatively cheap, and our best player in Wake doesn't exactly make Ireland the next Art Rooney. If that's what has Ireland's apologists happy about him being our GM, than he's much worse than I thought.

 

Every noted homer on this site. From Finacious D on down. It happens all the time so don't sit here and act like you haven't seen that ridiculous card being played time and time again.

 

Deciding to keep, develop, and eventually re-sign Soliai would be an Ireland move.

Again, all parts of evaluating talent.

 

Wow, you have been on here since 2007 and you honestly haven't seen the many comments where some individuals on here blame Parcells for all the bad picks and poor free agent signings, and yet they also give Ireland credit for the drafting of Long,the signing of Wake, and any other player they felt was a decent player. All I can say is you obviously don't spend much time reading through many comments on this forum'

I do agree with you though that an assessment of Ireland should not be different if you count the period Parcells was with the Dolphins. That is why assessment of Ireland is that he needs to go, ASAP.

 

I have never seen any individual person claim you can't blame Ireland for bad stuff 'cause Parcells and turn around and praise him for stuff during the same time period.

I have never seen any individual person actually get called out for doing that.

I've seen a lot of people get smug and accuse a nebulous group of "homers" or whatever of holding a double standard. This somehow seems to run off of the idea that there's some sort of collective consciousness or something along those lines which doesn't make it at all unnecessary to differentiate between individual people that hold a different opinion.

 

No, I never have. It's quite possible there have been but I've missed it, but I somehow doubt there's that kind of intellectual honesty going on here.

 

If you are going to credit him for this decision on Soliai. How about the fact that he never developed Langford, Merling, or Kearse. All defensive linemen drafted since he became the teams GM and no longer members of the Dolphins. Odrick still has a long way to go to prove that he was worthy of being a first round selection. So far he has played more like a late round selection. Vernon is the other DL drafted since Ireland became the teams GM, and since it is only his rookie season, it is too early to tell if he is an NFL player or not.

The fact is that Ireland did not draft Soliai, and other than Odrick and Vernon, none of the other defensive linemen drafted by Ireland is even with the team any longer. When you actually look at his draft choices, when he comes to defensive linemen. He has done a pretty piss poor job.

 

Technically, that is not his job

 

Didn't notice this one. That isn't Ireland's job.

 

I'm not a homer nor have I ever done anything to you to be talked about in this way.

All I've ever said, is we don't know. No one can prove one way or the other. That doesn't make me the unreasonable one.

FTR, I've been very consistent as well. I don't hold Ireland responsible for things happened that while Parcells was here, nor have I praised him for any good moves during that time. Over and over and over, I have stated my evaluation of him started last year.

 

I am obviously not the only person on the forum who has seen individuals blame Parcells and credit Ireland for selected players taken during the time Parcells was with the organization. If you want to just deny this has happened, so be it. From now on I will take anything you post with a grain of salt, because you are totally oblivious to what is written on this forum.

 

I don't think Ireland is an awful GM -- I think he is about average -- but I have done some research to try to evaluate the job he has done in some kind of quantitative, objective way. Pro-football-reference.com has a summary stat called Approximate Value, which they show on their site as CarAV (Career Approximate Value). The stat is described in excruciating detail here: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?page_id=518. This stat attempts to put a value on every player, regardless of position. While one can argue the merits fo the methodology, it is at least objective in the sense that in no way can it be argued that PFR has tweaked this stat in order to either paint Ireland in a positive light or a more negative one.

Since Ireland has been here (2008 to the present), his drafts have produced players with a total CarAV of 198. Here is how Ireland's drafts stack up against 10 other teams over that same time period:

Eagles -- 227
Packers -- 226
Patriots -- 205
Dolphins/Ireland -- 198
Carolina -- 185
Arizona -- 184
Rams -- 165
Bills -- 160
Giants -- 140
Steelers -- 138
NYJ -- 119


This is obviously only a partial sample and was not randomly selected. I chose the Pats, Packers, Steelers, Giants, and Eagles because they are often mentioned as the top front offices in football. I chose the Rams and Panthers because they also had no. 1 overall picks over the last 5 years. I chose the Jets and Bills because I was curious as to how our drafting has compared to our division rivals. And I chose the Cardinals because, well, I wanted a 10 team sample and needed another one.

If one gives Ireland credit for undrafted acquisitions like Cameron Wake (CarAV of 22) and Davone Bess (CarAV of 22) the Ireland's CarAV exceeds that of the top teams (although I haven't gone through their undrafted player lists for the same period). For those curious, Brandon Marshall's total AV for his two years in Miami was 18 (which cost 2 2nds and returned 2 3rds). In any case, Ireland's overall draft performance was pretty respectable when viewed objectively.

If/when I get the time, I'll try to add other teams and may also look to see how many CarAV points each team got per unit of draft "currency", as determined from the draft trade value charts.

Edit -- PFR gave Odrick a Car AV of 6, it just wasn't listed on the page I used to add up the numbers. I have changed the info above accordingly.

 

I totally agree it is NOT Ireland's job. I was merely responding to a post which stated Ireland should be credited with developing Soliai. Like you, I have always thought that was the job of the coaches, not the GM. I figured if, S101, was going to credit Ireland with developing Soliai, I would just note that Ireland failed to develop the other DL he drafted. It was meant as sarcasm.

 

I'm not sure that is an effective threat. If this has happened so often, you'd think you'd be able to come up with some sort of example. If you think Finascious D did it, fine, but what he's saying is clearly a bit more nuanced than that.


...


And while we're at it, does anyone actually have any thoughts on the actual topic of the thread? Anyone wanna explain why I'm not valuing Vontae Davis correctly as a draft pick or veteran? That'd be cool, thanks in advance.

 

I think this probably deserves its own thread.

 

That very well might be. Like I said, haven't seen it, and I'm skeptical.

That being said, my point was unless you're directly addressing a person who has done that, why would you bring it up? It doesn't actually invalid pro-Ireland arguments of people who have never done that.