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How Miami Dolphins quarterback Josh Rosen fared in his preseason start | Baldy's Breakdowns

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Sceeto, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    The kid can play. He doesn't need to sit behind Ryan Fitzpatrick for 4 games.
     
  2. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I don't yet know what he can be or how he is going to turn out. I can say, just based on what I've seen from him so far this preseason, is that he has a great feel for the pocket. He's good at manipulating the pocket. He's very good at staying calm, cool and collected in the pocket. He's very good at stepping up in the pocket and keeping his eyes downfield. He even protects the ball well when he is going down. That sounds small, but it's important. We've all seen the ugly results when that doesn't happen. Again, it's early and who t f knows? ....but there have been some good signs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    In my personal opinion, Rosen has already surpassed Tannehill in terms of reading the defense and moving in the pocket. Their arms are about equal, their ball placement is similar, but Rosen's processing time is clearly on another level. And I think that's what makes him such an awesome prospect- if he develops, his ceiling appears to be really freaking high.

    As I've said a hundred times now, Rosen could easily end up being a bust.....but this time around there's zero pressure due to what we paid for him. We have no ties, no commitment, and the kid knows he needs to improve fast or we can cut ties without any real worry. I really do like what I see so far though and he has me excited for the year.

    PS- Miami's line is world's better than Arizona's last season. We definitely have some issues and we'll likely end up in the bottom 3rd once again, but Rosen had SOME pocket last night and that's what we really wanted to see. We need to know if he has a little time and a little protection, can he play fast, effective football? So far I still think that answer is YES.
     
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  4. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Guys.. it's preseason. Has everyone already forgotten that Tannehill was playing real well during the 2018 preseason and a bunch of people were saying 2018 would finally be the year for him (deja vu)? Teams don't game plan like in the regular season.

    Rosen hasn't proven anything yet until he does it in the regular season (except obvious stuff like he and most other QB's have better pocket presence than Tannehill). I do agree though he should start game 1 so we have the largest possible sample size for evaluation.
     
  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Based on Flores comments and demeanor I think Fitzpatrick will start the season..
     
  6. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Pre-season or not, he is showing pocket presence out there behind a really shotty offensive line. Most people's worry was that starting him right away he was going to get killed behind that line. It's obvious he can manipulate it.
     
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  7. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    All I've been saying is that it's refreshing to see a young QB handle pressure and fly thru their reads. Maybe Rosen starts week 1...maybe he's traded by week 17...I have no idea what the future holds or how he'll develop. I'm still enjoying the "right now" though because it's been so long without a guy who could do those things a a really high level.

    By the way, Tannehill had another solid week in Tennessee...7/11 for 84 yards and a TD across 3 series. Hopefully he does better there and has a great 2nd half of his career; analysts are saying he's playing too good to be a backup.
     
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  8. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Yep and I think he’ll last as long as Jay Fiedler did when Wannstedt started him in 2004 instead of AJ Feel-This. (He only lasted a half)
     
  9. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    My thoughts remain the same. Fitzpatrick will start the season and by week 6, will have played himself out of a job.
     
  10. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    I think Rosen is coming along, but still has a ways to go. Even if he doesn't start Thursday he can still show everyone what he's got. It might not mean he will start against the Ravens, but it could mean Fitzpatrick is on a short leash and Rosen will be called upon sooner rather than later.
     
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  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Rosen has better feel for the pocket, tannehill is throwing against 2nd and third teamers in preseason games where they don’t gameplan..I’m sure that’s fooling the pundits and the titan fans..
     
  12. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I thought some of his ball placement wasn’t very good. He had Ford in the end zone and threw it low. Not sure if it was the wet ball but it does rain in Miami once in a while.
     
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  13. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    If you watch the video he said the placement of that ball you are talking about was perfect. Just a tad short. It was put where only the WR could make a play on it.
     
  14. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    A lot has been written about Flores' comments on Rosen's "body language" or, lack thereof. Reports out of Davie are that Fitz will start game three against the Jaguars and, by extension, game one of the regular season.
    Marino had "body language". At times he would grab a lineman by the facemask, to get their attention, and chew them a new one if they screwed up. We haven't had a true alpha male under center since Marino. Rosen can't do what Dan did because he doesn't have the firepower or the experience. I'm guessing that Flores thinks the o-line and offense will develop more consistently under Fitzpatrick than Rosen. Obviously this season is about developing the team and, not so much about winning. Rosen will get his shot.
     
  15. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    It should be about developing a quarterback because without a good quarterback they're never going to win anything.
     
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  16. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of who starts, Rosen will still see the lion-share of play these last two games. I'd rather see him against the 1's but it really doesn't matter- we know Fitz is putting in long hours and he'll be ready to go week 1 regardless. Everyone is expecting him to choke and maybe he does, but I'm still pumped because we have two guys with arms and 5-6 really talented receivers that can fill a lot of roles.

    I'm really hoping Williams and Parker start opposite each other in week 1....that would be dynamic!
     
  17. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    It sounds like you are getting excited about the season. Of course, we all are probably keeping our expectations low, but there are some things to look at
    (like seeing if a player emerges and if the team starts to gel) that could keep us going.
     
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  18. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Bah, the heck with expectations.....I root for us to go 16-0 and winning the super bowl every season. And until that doesn't happen, I don't need "experts" telling me that the team will suck, the QB will suck, etc. That's not what being a fan is about.

    Game 1 is in 3 weeks, and if we win then we're tied for the lead in the AFC East. If we lose then we're one game back. That's all I can focus on because all the noise means nothing. We were picked to be the worst team in the league last season and started 3-0 with a DOMINANT defense....which expert told us to expect that? Not a single one of them!

    Yet I told you to expect that in my season preview last year because I actually was paying attention to how good that secondary looked...the same secondary that's back this season. So don't let these "experts" tell you the Fins will suck this season and there's nothing to get excited about- it's a brand new season and they have no idea. At this point, all we can hope for is going 1-0...that's the team's focus and it's mine as well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
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  19. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If it's a tad short how is the placement perfect???? It's the same only different?
     
  20. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    I get it, you don't get what he was talking about. He knew he had to throw it low where only the receiver could make a play on it. And, if we're being honest a good WR probably adjusts better and makes that catch.
     
  21. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End

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    Clearly he short hopped it but I think the point Baldinger makes about that throw is that he is throwing it low and away from the defender which is the correct ball placement for that throw. Anywhere else and the defender can make the play.

    The one thing I noticed is the passing (and receiving) was much better by both teams in the 2nd half. I half to think the wet ball made a bit of a difference to guys like Rosen and Williams that aren't quite used to that yet. Your point on the rain in Miami is a good one. They need to get a lot better.
     
  22. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Perfect insomuch as the ball was thrown where it needed to be, low and away to prevent the chance of a pick 6 and to give the receiver the chance to make a play. It wasn’t a bad pass. Granted, it was a difficult reception to be made but that is what receivers get paid to do, catch the ball
     
  23. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    It was the receiver's job to adjust and make that catch- it was the only place the ball could be thrown safely. Would it be nicer if Rosen threw it 8 inches higher? Sure. But that was a bullet while under pressure and it's almost impossible to ask a QB to do more...the mistake was on the receiver's adjustment to the pass.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
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  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    There's a common thread in a lot of Josh Rosen's plays. His reads and progressions are not fluid, take too much time, and he doesn't throw with anticipation. He has to see everything before he throws it. That throws the receivers off, results in more contested finishes, more drops, and more sacks. It's like dealing with a QB that has a slow release.

    If you're working a curl-flat or a slant-flat read, it shouldn't be, "Read flat, not there, read slant, throw it." It's one read, not two. But that's something that is consistently happening with Josh Rosen and you can see it in his body language and the hitching of his feet in the backfield.

    This includes several of the plays Baldinger tries to isolate as highlights. There's one, a 6-man rush versus max protection. I get that you've got max protect, but you've got Mark Walton in the backfield trying to block Kevin Minter on the quarterback's blind side. You can't just hang onto this ball forever. Rosen lollygags through his reads, takes 3.5 seconds before letting the ball out, and doesn't even step up in order to help his man out. That ball was begging to be strip-sacked before it even flew out to Isaiah Ford, who had a lot harder catch to make than he strictly had to, because Rosen needed to see him before he could throw it. I mean, on that play he's got Mike Gesicki and Mark Walton as the extra protectors. Somehow, they both did an ideal job on the play. That's like winning the damn lottery.

    This is the reason Brian Flores continues to show a discomfort with the idea of elevating Josh Rosen. He's given Josh the lion's share of reps in the first two preseason games, and for better or worse Josh Rosen has shot his shot. He's not going to get much opportunity to change whatever evaluation has happened with the coaches before it comes time for them to declare a starter. Now it's Ryan Fitzpatrick's turn. They're going to game plan this game against the Jaguars, and Fitzpatrick is going to be asked to go out there and execute, lead the offense. If he does well, the job is his.

    If not, the job may be his anyway. Or it may go to Rosen. Up for grabs.
     
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  25. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That’s good analysis imo CK, last year I said he was double clutching double hitching up a storm, too fast, too slow, just not finding his balance and tempo upstairs which was effecting his physical mechanics and fundamentals..

    Now I do see him consciously going through his drops and making sure his footwork is correct, but he’s still double\triple pumping.

    I don’t think he will start the season because I’ve been listening to him all offseason..if he doesn’t feel he’s ready why should I.
     
  26. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    Interesting. I would think that this skill would be fundamental for any QB wanting to enter the pros. I wonder why it all seems so foreign to him? Bad coaching and/or advice? Poor practice habits?
     
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  27. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    It's not foreign- he's just saying that Rosen is doing it too slowly. It should be, "Look at primary target, look at secondary target, throw the football." Instead, it's "look at the primary guy, think about it for a split second, look at the secondary guy, think again, then throw the football."

    That extra 1- 1.5 seconds is an eternity in football and it's what separates the elite from the pretty good. I don't think it's time to say that Rosen can't reach that next level, but he's not there yet and circumvents that with running for his life, demanding max protection, taking additional sacks, etc. As I said earlier, he already appears better in that regard than Tannehill was, so it's not like the kid can't play and compete. He's just not 100% there yet and that's perfectly okay.
     
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  28. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    CK, is that pretty much what RT would do as well?
     
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  29. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    IDK...I seriously doubt that Josh Rosen gets in the way of the Miami Dolphins drafting a QB next year and when they do, Rosen will immediately be just another name on the roster. So I'd be doing myself a disservice getting pumped up about JR. So far, he looks okay, but not like the kind of player you really want as your QB.

    I'll try to keep reminding myself throughout the year that it's far more likely JR becomes the back-up and so he's really out there to win that job following this year. I view him as someone who might remain on the roster, not someone who's going to be the franchise QB. I seriously, seriously doubt he's that guy.
     
  30. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    How would you say Marino did it? I’m thinking he saw an opening (no matter how small) and thought what the heck I can fit the ball in there and that mofo better catch it. :-)
     
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  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Probably was there all along and just wasn't noticed. For those that want to say this is all about learning the offense, etc...these are basic fundamental principles that QBs have had driven into their skulls since high school.

    But I've heard that Josh Rosen has been privately spewing a lot of vitriol at Arizona lately, talking about how they completely mind f-cked him, he says they were gas lighting him, etc. Maybe he's still shell shocked.
     
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  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't know if I would characterize it in exactly that way. To me, when you're working a two-man route combination you're making one fluid read, not two.

    Or maybe technically speaking you're reading MOF first, and THEN clicking over, making your one fluid read, and then throwing the football.

    But what you're not supposed to be doing is looking at the flat to see if he's open, and then looking at the curl to see if he's open. Based on the progression that's already happened, if you're looking at the flat and he's not open, then you already know the curl is open, and you just throw it. You don't have to check it first.

    You know how Fitzpatrick keeps making these no-look passes? You don't have to go that far with it, and it's arguably not even advisable, but the reason that's even possible for certain QBs is because the read that a QB makes is determinant of multiple receiver availabilities.

    Now, if something really freaky has happened that you weren't expecting altogether, even after you've gone through your progression, that's when you go from your stepping into the throw, to pulling it back down, and doing something else. I wouldn't call that a read. That's more like a kill switch.

    To me the progression should be like:

    1. MOF
    2. Flat/Curl Defender
    3. Throw (kill?)

    But instead Josh Rosen is turning it into:

    1. MOF
    2. Flat open?
    3. Curl open?
    4. Throw (kill?)

    This I agree with, although I don't agree with Rosen already appearing to manage the pocket better than Tannehill did. There are some pretty discrete things we can show that suggest otherwise, IMO. It seems to be one of the things Flores is getting on him about.
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    To me, Tannehill was just consistently inconsistent.

    Sort of like if you've got a faulty starter and consistently it would fail to turn over 3 times every 100 tries? Something like that?

    Some guys RUSH THROUGH their reads. Rushing through your reads is a symptom of developing concrete expectations of what you're doing with the football before a play begins, based on what the defense is showing you, and then failing to be able to see the defense post-snap and integrate it with your expectations.

    That is the opposite of what I'm talking about with Josh Rosen. Although Rosen does rush through his reads at times, as well. I'm saying that Rosen takes too much time to get through his reads. He's slow and methodical about it, and he doesn't seem to operate with a strong sense of where the ball should go based on the play call and what the defense is showing pre-snap.

    Both are symptom of the same problem though, not being able to see the defense clearly and timely with the speed dialed up, managing that while managing all the other things that are on a quarterback's plate from whistle-to-snap, and snap-to-whistle. To me, this is a hard-wiring thing. It can be improved by learning and repetition. But the floor and ceiling seems hard-wired.
     
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  34. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    It seems like Arizona was a pretty toxic situation, and when things don't go right, they can unravel very quickly. I hope Rosen feels more comfortable here in Miami. I also appreciate Flores's honesty when he says Rosen isn't ready yet. I like that we aren't rushing him in there. If we do, he probably won't ever reach his potential.
    I see us drafting a QB next year. I wish we could hold out a year and try and get Lawerance, but that probably won't' happen. Maybe we will get lucky and get a guy who will pan out. It sure would be nice not talking about finding a replacement for our QB for a change. LOL.
     
  35. freeperjim

    freeperjim Member

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    As a new PhinPhan up in here in Dayton,OH....a few thoughts on my first "real" post

    I was a lifelong Bengals fan until they totally screwed Carson Palmer...which led me to become a follower of the AZ Cards when CP was traded there. So I watched Rosen his first year in a total chaotic mess worse than the Bungles. From a new Head Coach to sitting behind a washed-up, failed QB (Sam Bradford), an OC that was fired after 7 games & replaced by a retired QB that had never been an OC. Add a failed OL and multiple OC at UCLA, of course Rosen was in NFL hell in AZ.

    I certainly can believe he's a bit bitter at AZ after seeing what a professional team structure looks like.

    However, Rosen has all the tools - physical & intellectual - to become a VERY good QB. I can appreciate Flores easing Rosen into the starting QB.

    Finally, I can see the long-term planning going into building this team and, as a former officer in a huge corporation reporting directly to the Chairman to becoming an entrepreneur with partners in Europe & Far East, the long-term strategy is easily seen in this organization.

    I am quite excited to be a new PhinPhan...especially since I can still recall Bob Griese to Paul Warfield for a TD.

    So let's not jump to drafting a QB in 2020/2021...but let's see how this season and Rosen progresses. I believe Rosen will surprise many out there.

    Finally, Dolphins-Jags shown on our local FOX affiliate here - eager to see the game!!!

    Whew...that was a longer than I planned...
     
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